Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Katie Walters: I would think that if I stayed with Josh, I would’ve done the good Christian thing and I would’ve ended with, like, a pal. But God would show me, hey, I am the author of all things, emotions. I can resurrect anything. You know, don’t quit. In your mind, really give me your feet. And so my heart wasn’t all the way back yet, but I would say, “You can have my feet. I’m going to commit myself to you, to your plans.”

John Fuller: That’s Katie Walters describing the spiritual battle she faced in deciding whether or not she’d stay in her marriage. Uh, the good news is, God transformed Katie’s heart and healed her relationship with her husband, Josh. And today, they’re more in love than ever before. Welcome to another edition of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: Uh, John, this is a really good news story-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and a miracle about God’s grace and forgiveness and restoration of a marriage that seemed doomed to fail. I mean, when you hear the opening of this, you’re going, “There’s no way they could’ve survived.” Because many couples believe infidelity means their relationship is over, it’s the unpardonable sin and there’s no hope of reconciliation. But as Josh and Katie shared with us last time, God can do amazing things when our hearts are open-

John: Mm.

Jim: … and tender towards him. Uh, he wants to heal broken hearts and bring new hope to you and your spouse. And certainly, you know, Jean and I want that, right? Who doesn’t? Uh, that’s what Josh and Katie experienced and if you missed the first part of our conversation last time, I want to urge you to get, uh, a download or CD from us or even better, get the app for your smartphone-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And you’ve got the whole library right there. Uh, check the previous episodes on YouTube, which is another way you can watch and listen.

John: Yeah, we’re, uh, trying to be everywhere we can-

Jim: (laughs) We are.

John: … where you wanna listen or watch and, uh, the Walters have captured their story, their remarkable story, in a book called, New Marriage, Same Couple: Don’t Let Your Worst Days Be Your Last Days. And we have copies of that when you call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: If you’re at that point and you’re wondering if your marriage, uh, may not survive, uh, maybe there’s infidelity or too much conflict, or you’ve simply lost hope that your relationship will get better. If that describes you, I want to urge you to contact us here at Focus on the Family today. Uh, we have resources for you, like our counseling team and Hope Restored, where we provide intensive counseling for couples on the brink of divorce. Don’t let it happen to you. Get the help you need today. Let’s see what miracle God wants to perform in your marriage.

John: Mm, yeah. And again, we’re just a phone call away, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Josh and Katie, welcome back to Focus (laughs).

Katie: Thanks.

Josh: Thank you for having us.

Katie: Glad to be here.

Jim: It was, uh, really interesting and I so appreciate, again, that vulnerability that you express. And you know, I said it last time, I’ll say it again, to live that worst day of your life over and over again, but it benefits other people. And I’m-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … grateful that God has given you the courage to do this. And I know it’s not easy.

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But thank you for doing it.

John: Mm-hmm.

Josh: Absolutely.

Jim: And, um, you know, we’ll get into more of-

Katie: The joy.

Jim: … the benefits of a road, uh, less chosen, which is to stay together, to fight for your marriage, to get through, uh, an affair and to come out on the other side with what I would say would be a stronger relationship.

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Jim: (laughs) Would you agree?

Josh: Definitely, definitely.

Katie: Absolutely.

Jim: Yeah. So that is a good-

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: … benefit right there.

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: Let’s just start with that goal in mind.

Katie: Uh-huh.

Jim: And, uh, let’s continue on. We talked last time about this acronym you created, which is STAY, start with me. You know, in other words, you and God worked some things out, what did I do to contribute to this? I think that takes a lot of courage. Uh, you may not get there on day one, but-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that is the goal. You go into any counseling, that’s what they’re gonna talk about in marriage counseling-

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … is what part of this do you own?

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: I’ll tell you another part of that I didn’t mention in the last episode. It is God, what is my responsibility in this? But it was also Psalm 34:18, “God’s close to the brokenhearted.” Like, there was grief and pain that I needed comfort. That’s easy to take to your spouse, “Hey, help me with this, comfort me in this. You’re not meeting my needs.” So, yeah, S was very much a, a me and God starting point.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: There’s such a deflecting, uh, approach that we has human beings have. I mean David had it (laughs), right, until Nathan confronted him.

Katie: For sure.

Jim: But we have an incredible inability to look at ourselves.

Katie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, we’re generally perfect (laughs).

Josh: (laughs)

Katie: (laughs) Yes.

Jim: We didn’t do anything wrong. He-

Katie: I’m sorry.

Jim: … was the problem, she was the problem.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: Lord, deal with her. That’s not what the S is for (laughs).

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: Yeah, that’s right.

Jim: This is not…

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: Uh, I don’t even know a S word that starts with deal with her or deal with him, right?

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: Uh-huh.

Jim: It’s deal with me, start with me, so that’s good. Uh, T was, uh, take quitting off the table. Some describe that as divorce is not in our vocabulary.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And that’s healthy. Uh, allow others to be part of the story, and then yield to the vision. So in that T, just to finish off ’cause we didn’t get to this question last time, uh, Josh, during your recovery process you and Katie did something called confessional therapy. I’m not familiar with that, so how did that work in this situation?

Josh: We had never in the past confessed our sin to each other. And so a lot of that is the thought of, you know, God is faithful and just to forgive us of all of our sin, cleanse, purify us from all unrighteousness, but scripture also speaks to confess your sin one to another that you may be healed. And so, uh, I think there was a lot of healing in that season that came from really, it being the first time that we confessed the hardest thing to one another.

Jim: Mm.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: And so, it brought us to a place of sharing. You know, Katie would say things like, “Hey, I used to wear this headband for him.” And we would throw it away together. You know, I’d never been so excited to throw away a headband.

Katie: (laughs)

Jim: Yeah, no kidding.

Katie: That’s right.

Josh: Or she would share a thought, and every time she did, it was so counterintuitive. ‘Cause you would think something so painful would, would drive me away, but it was an invitation closer and that I realize like, man, she didn’t have to tell me that-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Mm.

Josh: … and she chose to.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: And so it somehow built intimacy the more we were willing to do that. And we had to get language around it ’cause it wasn’t common. Especially for me, it would be really hard, so I’d have to say like, “Hey, can I tell you something hard?” And it let me know, is she in the frame of mind, is she stressed with the day and dinner and the kids? Can I say something like that right now?

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: Or she would say something like, “Hey, can you handle me?” And that was her way of saying like, “Hey, I’m about to say something that could hurt you.”

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: And I would have to, yeah, you know, “Yeah, this is a good time. What you got?”

Jim: Right. Whoa, that’s good transactionally-

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Jim: … ’cause you could be in not a very good emotional place-

Josh: Totally.

Jim: … and that’s the last thing you wanna hear-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … right?

Josh: Yep.

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: Uh, m- moving on into that allow others to be part of the story, what, what does that look like? I mean, that could be really dangerous, I would think-

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … initially that, y- you know, can you trust these people-

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … if you’re gonna talk about your situation?

Katie: Well, one thing that helped us in this part of our story is I had a night, probably the lowest night of our whole story, where Josh had found out something I had not confessed to him. He was really upset. We were at my parents’ house, and that was the first night that he had chosen not to sleep in the bed with me. And I was so full of shame. And in this night, I actually was so low. You know, that shame is trying to take your life. I mean truly, for anybody who’s felt this shame before-

Jim: And where is this in the process?

Katie: This is-

Jim: Are-

Katie: This is probably about three to four months afterwards

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Katie: Um-

Jim: Okay. After the revelation?

Katie: After the confession.

Jim: Yeah.

Katie: We’re here at my mom’s house, and we’re still trying to rebuild. But of course, I have all the public shame, but now I also feel this just distance with Josh.

Josh: Partially because there was still the, like, pursuit. I mean it’s almost-

Jim: The vacillation.

Josh: … like a-

Katie: Yes.

Jim: So you’re like, “Okay…”

Josh: … a dra- drawing her back and-

Katie: Yes. And so in this night, you know, I honestly got a knife. I mean, I was feeling so low, but I also had my Bible beside me. And I pulled my Bible towards me, and in this low moment, I started to hear God’s voice. And I started to hear him say, “Katie, I love you. I have plans for your life.” Once I could start to hear the voice of God again, I realized he was kinder than any Christian I had ever known.

John: Mm.

Katie: And that freedom started to help me understand that we didn’t have to hide anymore from other people. We, we had been the pastors, the leaders. You have to know what you’re doing. You have to have it all together.

Jim: Yeah.

Katie: But that changed in our story because we started to realize, why would I fear man when I have a loving God who knows everything-

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Katie: … who still loves us?

Josh: Yeah. And I think for me, that’s where early on, part of it was what I would say was adulting. You know, we were in our early twenties and had gotten master’s degrees, started, uh, building a family, our first professional jobs. And no one put it on me, but I just felt this pressure to posture, to be the man that had the answers, to be successful.

Jim: I think that’s very normal.

Josh: Yeah. And it works for you at times-

Jim: Yeah.

Josh: … until you find yourself in a situation that you can’t fix.

John: Right.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Katie, I don- I don’t wanna rush by that ’cause, uh, you know, that was a suicidal ideation.

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, you were thinking, I mean the, the fact of a knife and a Bible right there, that quite powerful.

Katie: Totally. Well, John 10:10’s always been our life first.

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: You know, we, like, carved in our driveway of our first home, but we say, “We didn’t pay enough attention to the fact that the first part is a warning.”

Jim: Yeah.

Katie: You know, the second part is a promise, but when he says-

Jim: The thief comes to steal-

Katie: … “Steal, kill and destroy.”

Jim: … kill and destroy.

Katie: And whenever you’ve been faced with a temptation or, like I said before, when everyone gets lost, you know, at times away from God, but the enemy’s goal is to steal, kill and to destroy-

Jim: Yeah.

Katie: … our lives.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Katie: And that’s what shame is meant to do. That why as Christians, we need to draw close to those that are broken with compassion because that’s what Jesus would do, you know?

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I would hope in that desperation, you know, especially teenagers, just in the issue of suicide, I mean there’s a suicide hotline. You certainly, uh, call for help, make sure that, um, that pain is known by your family.

Katie: Yes, yes.

Jim: My wife’s family has suffered that twice-

Katie: Oh, so that statement.

Jim: … two suicides within her family.

Josh: Wow.

Jim: So, it’s an unfortunate thing to get to know how to respond in those situations.

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But it’s a desperate time.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: It’s the lowest a human being-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … can be when you’re actually thinking of taking your life…

Katie: Yep.

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: And-

Jim: … because of that shame.

Katie: Yeah, it’s so true. And that’s when, you know, this is critical moments. There’s many critical moments in your life, but you definitely need outside voices, Godly voices, counsel. You know, why I love all that you offer here with Focus on the Family, but that’s the allow others to be a part of your story. Because we had realized that the enemy was not each other. We had a real enemy that we were fighting, but we also needed guidance to help us rebuild. And so it was easier to do that in brokenness ’cause we were at such a point of humility, but we’ve encouraged so many couples, you know, Josh always says, “Disciple means learner.” So humble yourself. To grow to a new place in marriage, you’re gonna have to allow others to come alongside of you often-

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: … to give you perspective you don’t have.

Jim: You know, and I think about it, vocationally, there’s probably no greater a, an example of oil and water than being a pastor and y- having an affair within that context-

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … either the pastor’s wife or the pastor.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: And it happens.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So, I can only imagine that shame could run pretty deep. How did you get on your feet spiritually with that? With, you know, beyond your small group, you ended up, I think, going to, uh, Seacoast Church.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: Was that after the, uh, situation and…

Josh: So, we were still-

Katie: Yeah.

Josh: … in Columbia, and I met a guy named, uh, Mac Lake, who seemed to just embody husband, father, pastor, normal guy-

Jim: (laughs)

Josh: … but loved God.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: And he was the first guy that I met that really gave me a vision for the kind of man I wanted to be. So I asked him, “Hey, if I can cut your grass, wash your car, if there’s anything I can do to just be around you.”

Jim: Wow.

Josh: And so I would drive up from Columbia, and, uh, he was the leadership development pastor at Seacoast at the time. And we would do goal setting, and he would be like, “All right, Josh, what are your goals for this year?” And I just remember thinking like, “I’m unemployed and my marriage is busted. My goals?” (laughs) I’m like, “What are you-”

Jim: Breathe.

Josh: … “What are you talking about?” (laughs)

Jim: Breathe and eat are my goals today.

Katie: (laughs) That’s right, breathe.

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: That’s right.

Josh: And I remember one… He processed it with me and I rem- I remember one of them being he challenged me to be, uh, mentally present, not just physically present. And so even just the walking through the process of creating goals like that in a painful season, I just think I, uh, I mean it was a day at a time, a step at a time, God giving me what I needed for that moment, for that day and trusting him with tomorrow.

Katie: Uh-huh.

Jim: How about you, Katie, what was their message to you?

Katie: Well, th- it was incredible. So, we moved to Seacoast really to be around Mac and his wife, Cindy. And my mom was on staff there as the women’s pastor, but we didn’t think we would ever do ministry again. I really thought I had taken that from Josh. And you know, we saw Mac as this man and Cindy as people that focused on their family. You know, you think about-

Jim: (laughs)

Katie: … everybody says-

Jim: I like that.

John: (laughs)

Katie: Exactly. Like, everyone says they-

John: We’re all for that.

Katie: … wanna focus on their family, but do they really, you know?

John: It’s got a ring to it.

Katie: And so, that’s right. But they did, they really prioritized their family. And so when we would sit with them in small group week after week, you know, they just had hope. They had never been through betrayal like we had. In fact, Cindy used to tell me, “I mean, Mac’s just always been my best friend.” And I’m thinking, “Your best friend? I can’t stand this man.” You know? (laughs) I would just in such a dark place, but they just gave us hope. They’re like, “God is with you. God’s gonna get you through it.” You know, I would look at her and she would say, “What are you scared of?” And I would say, “I’m scared of me. Like, what if I do this again, you know?” And she would say, “God is with you. God’s got you.” You know, she just gave us hope and love, encouragement, and walked with us through pain.

John: Mm.

Katie: And it definitely changed our life because that’s what we hope to offer-

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: … others when we sit with them and couples and have coffee with them is just to give them this same supernatural hope that if God is for you, nothing can be against you. He can renew-

Josh: Yeah, mm-hmm.

Katie: … you know, all things. Um, so they continued to just do that for us, which was incredible.

Jim: You talk about celebrating markers. I think, you know, the Old Testament, certainly the Jewish people did that. They’d have a battle and then build a monument by-

Katie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jim: … piling rocks up.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: And that became a marker of a great victory or whatever it might be, a moment that the Lord obviously intersected their lives.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: What are celebrating markers-

Katie: Sorry.

Jim: … in this regard?

Katie: S- uh-

Josh: Well, I remember the, the dark days, which anyone listening may be in right now, where-

Jim: Mm.

Josh: … every conversation leads to an argument or where it’s been a long time since you’ve seen the, like, fun and flirty eyes or really enjoyed each other. When you’ve been through a, a long, dark season and have a moment that is life giving and hopeful, it’s like, man, you can’t not celebrate ’cause, like, something different happened. In that season in particular, a silly example, talk about Katie having the spiritual gift of sleeping in the car that anytime-

Katie: (laughs)

Josh: … I start it, sometimes it’d feel like before I pull out of the driveway, she’s asleep.

Jim: That’s kind of warm and cozy.

Katie: Yeah, that’s right.

John: (laughs)

Josh: But I remember a day where we were driving around Charleston running errands, had got home and I re- I had the realization like, “She didn’t fall asleep. Like, we talked the whole time. She was engaged and with me the whole time.” And-

Jim: Mm.

Josh: … I just remember it being such a line in the sand of our relationship, ’cause that’s the kind of stuff we did in college. Like, there was so much-

Jim: Yeah.

Josh: … anticipation to be around each other.

Jim: Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.

Josh: I was never gonna sleep-

Jim: (laughs)

Katie: That’s right.

Josh: … when she’s around, you know, and it happened again. So it’s, it’s just identifying the-

Katie: But he stopped and celebrated that like, “You didn’t sleep today, you know?” And the interesting thing is Mac used to tell us that it’s almost like when you’ve come out of some kind of betrayal or if you’re rebuilding your marriage, you go into the hospital and people come out of the hospital at different phases. You know, some it’s seven days. Some, you get an infection, you’re there three months. You don’t really have a timeline for these things.

John: Mm.

Katie: And for us, we did a vow renewal a year later, which is I would say probably a year later we started to feel some lift, some spiritual lift, some emotional lift. So, celebrating the markers is really important along the journey, you know, to value, look at what God’s doing. Just like putting up those Ebenezers, my mom is the queen of that.

John: (laughs)

Katie: Like, she literally has an Ebenezer wall, you know, in the back of her, um, yard where she marks God’s faithfulness to our family.

John: Mm. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and we’re talking today to Josh and Katie Walters. And, uh, their story is captured in their book, New Marriage, Same Couple: Don’t Let Your Worst Days Be Your Last Days. Uh, give us a call for a copy or that or to connect with one of our counselors. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. And we’ve got details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Okay. Let’s get into the Y, yield to God’s vision. Just define, you know, what that means. I think I get it, but, uh, maybe not.

Katie: Well, I love vision. So vision, a definition could be just a clear mental picture of a preferred future. And you know, if anyone’s listening and you lead anything, you have to give vision, you have to give a why. You have to talk about where you’re going, but I feel like a lot of times in our marriage and our families, we don’t do that.

Josh: And I would say a big part of story came because we had vision drift in the sense that in college we had a very clear picture of who we were gonna be, what life was gonna look like. But then we started having-

Katie: We’re big dreamers.

Josh: … babies. We got jobs. You know, uh-

Jim: Life became life.

Katie: That’s right, life.

Jim: (laughs)

Josh: Yeah. Mike Tyson’s, uh, “Everybody’s got a plan till you get punched in the face.”

Jim: Right (laughs). That’s a good line.

Katie: (laughs) That’s right.

Josh: And it, it punched us in the face.

Katie: Uh-huh.

Josh: And all of the sudden, we had responded to life. Instead of going after the vision of who we wanted to become, our life looked more like the result of things that had happened to us. So yield to vision is really more about coming back to the source, of saying like, “Okay, God, you created me with good works in advance for me to do. You came that I might have life and have it more abundantly. You’ve uniquely given me gifts and talents. You’ve put me together with this person. Who do you want us to become together? Where are you leading us, taking us?” And then allowing-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: … God to speak into and guide that.

Jim: You use, uh, an analogy about the forests and the trees. I think every parent, we’ve gone to that analogy and applied it-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … in a variety of ways (laughs). Right?

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: Son, you’re not seeing the forest through the trees. What does it mean in this context?

Josh: I would say it’s so natural in marriage, especially when there’s conflict in a relationship, to get locked in on the source of conflict. Like-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: What was the thing that initiated this division, this problem, this pain in our relationship, and to focus on that-

Jim: Mm.

Josh: … instead of the perspective of believing and trusting, all right, God is authoring a much bigger story here and he’s-

Katie: Yeah.

Josh: … wanting to use this pain and this problem to sharpen us, to strengthen us, to bring us together. And so I would say the discipline of it for us was more daily having to step back from the tension, the problem, the pain to look at, all right, God, what are you doing?

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: Mm.

Katie: What’s the bigger picture? And the parenting analogy is a great one ’cause you know, we told you we have a 20-year-old and a three-year-old. And with the three-year-old, we feel like we’re kind of grandparenting at this point (laughs) because everything is cute, everything is adorable. We know she’s gonna get through the paci phase.

Jim: Oh, those last-borns get the best parenting.

John: Ah, my gosh.

Katie: Yes, they get the best parents ’cause you’re so relaxed, you know?

Jim: Yeah, so relaxed.

Katie: You enjoy it more. And, but wi- the truth is what we have is just a bigger perspective.

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Katie: That firstborn, I was so tied up. You know, I wanted to do it all perfect, and I couldn’t enjoy it, those moments. And the same can be true in marriage. You know, when you can get this bigger picture perspective, just like Josh said, “What’s God doing? Where are we going?” You don’t get so hung up on the small things.

Jim: Josh, let me ask you about, uh, the Grand Canyon. Now, this is gonna be funny ’cause I know where this is going. I’ve read the story-

Katie: Right.

Jim: … but so often there’s, if we’re listening to the Lord, man, he is speaking all the time-

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: … if we can slow down and actually just see it. So, you’re on this trip to the Grand Canyon. I think (laughs), I think Katie’s asleep in the car, by the way.

Katie: Oh, yeah.

Josh: (laughs) You are correct. She is asleep in the car.

Katie: Still asleep (laughs).

Jim: Yeah. And then something happens.

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: What happens?

Josh: Yeah. So, we’re driving up this long, narrow road with just huge, nothing but trees on all sides of us. Nothing of this resembled the beauty I was hoping for us to share together in seeing the Grand Canyon. We had just flown to Scottsdale, Arizona to purchase a car, and we’re driving back across the country. And I was like, “Let’s just see something beautiful, you know, to start this drive.” And so we’re driving up this road, trees on both sides of us. The sun’s just starting to set and I’m thinking, “This was a bad idea. We’re not… I don’t have a clue where we are. We’re not gonna find it.” She’s sleeping. And all of the sudden we round this corner and, uh, the canyon opens up the most epic view we had ever seen in terms of sunset and the beauty of the Grand Canyon. And in that moment, God spoke and said, “That’s how quickly your story can change.” And I had been in a season where I had hope that God could do it, uh, but I think I was questioning as to would he do it. And I’m like, “How long is this going to take?” And so to hear-

Jim: Huh.

Josh: … that from him, “That’s how quickly your story can change,” it rebirthed hope in me to where every day, every time she got home from work, I knew all it took was one moment, one dream, one word from God, and it could flip that switch inside of her heart that I couldn’t touch. So I start crying, “Oh my Go-.”

Katie: (laughs)

Josh: (laughs) You know, Katie wakes up like, “What’s wrong? What’s wrong?”

Katie: I was like, “What’s happening?”

John: (laughs)

Josh: “God just spoke to me.” (laughs)

Jim: (laughs) That’s great though.

Josh: So, yeah.

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: But I, I’ve been on that, uh, that’s Kanab, I believe.

Josh: Mm.

Jim: … uh, National Forest.

John: Mm.

Jim: But you come through that, you know, that view, that vista is breathtaking.

Katie: Uh-huh.

Jim: And up until that point, you’re just on a road.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: And then you make that turn and go, “Bwah.”

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: ‘Cause there’s nothing like it.

Josh: And everything about it, you know, if you’re walking through something like this in your marriage-

Jim: Yeah.

Josh: … and it feels like a long, boring road lacking any, any beauty, it just reminded me that there’s a bigger narrative at play, that there’s a purpose to the road.

Katie: That’s right.

Josh: God wants to move and work and shape something in you, but he is leading you somewhere beautiful that if you can keep going, man, he, uh, he can do something special.

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: Katie, let me ask you this. The, uh, the thoughts that kept rippling through your mind, and you’ve alluded to this a couple of times, can I really love him the way-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … I need to love him? A fair question, probably a deep-hearted question.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: A desperate question.

Josh: Mm.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: If I’m gonna go the next maybe 40 more years-

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: … with this guy.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … I’ve gotta be able to love him. Uh, what happened, uh, as you began to try experiments to see if this is really working, if I-

Josh: (laughs)

Jim: … if I really am in love?

Katie: It really was just the whole in our weakness, his power is made perfect. Because I had a right estimation of myself at that point, and if you’ve ever been through a season of deep shame or brokenness, you know, that’s the truth. We are all sinners apart from God’s grace. So I had a right estimation of myself, but what I think I had a wrong estimation of was his power-

John: Mm.

Katie: … his love, who he wanted to be, his active working inside of me.

John: Mm.

Katie: And so I think, you know, that’s what I got to discover over that year is, wow, I have underestimated my God.

John: Yeah.

Katie: You know, he’s not gonna leave me-

John: Mm.

Katie: … in this place of brokenness. He’s not gonna leave me as this, you know, betrayer. And that’s why I think we even love sharing about our pain because we have seen all the miracles-

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: … that he’s done, you know?

Josh: Another thing that really encouraged me for that in that season of would the love be real, like, wou- could it, the fun, flirty, free, amazing marriage we’d always wanted, could he still do that? That word bara, um, in the beginning, God created, um, that word created is bara and it literally means something from nothing. And so I-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: … just loved the, when she would say, “I don’t know that I love you anymore,” I was like, “Check.” Like, (laughs) watch him, watch him-

Katie: Watch our God.

Josh: … do something from nothing. You mark those words ’cause I know God can do it.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Wow.

Josh: So…

Katie: And he did. Yeah.

Jim: That’s pretty amazing you (laughs) had that attitude-

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … rather than some other things you could say.

Katie: Well (laughs)…

Josh: Well, it was just, it was good and, and it’s like, man, I just feel like so much of it, the angels appearing to the shepherds, behold I bring you good news that’ll cause great joy for all the people. Like, if you’re, if you’re in a season of marriage where you would say, “This is not great joy,” then just know that God is not done. Like, he wants-

Katie: Yeah.

Josh: … abundant life for your marriage.

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: So good.

Josh: So if it feels like nothing-

Jim: Yeah.

Josh: … just know, he is the, the God of creating something from nothing.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Oh, that’s really good.

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: And what a great note to end on. This is perfect and I’m so grateful to you for, again, coming and telling us about all the flaws (laughs)-

Katie: That’s right (laughs).

Jim: … but then how God tied it in a bow. And that’s what’s most important-

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … uh, and the recognition-

Katie: He’s so good.

Jim: … that yeah, we’re broken people.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: And so often in the Christian community, we’re trying to put that perfection forward.

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And underneath that little wrapping paper is a lot of brokenness for all of us. So-

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: I love that, the, just the way you turned toward the Lord and said, “Okay, Lord, work on me.”

Josh: Mm.

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: “And then help us.”

Katie: Mm.

Jim: And, uh, you’re a walking testimony. You’re your own Ebenezer.

Katie: That’s right (laughs).

John: (laughs)

Jim: So hopefully-

Katie: We’ll take it.

Jim: … your mom has that on the wall-

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: … the picture of the two of you.

Katie: Just us. That’s right (laughs).

Jim: What God can do-

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: … to bring a marriage together.

Josh: Mm.

Jim: And if you’re in that spot where it’s not working and there’s so many thoughts you’ve having, probably, Lord, where are you? He’s there.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Um, let’s start that conversation. Give us a call. We have great, caring Christian counselors. And, uh, the donors, uh, allow us through their financial support to have about 20 counselors on staff, and they do this all day long. They talk to couples, talk to people about where they’re at and get them started toward healing. And of course, this great book, New Marriage, Same Couple, is a resource we’d like to get into your hands if you can make a gift of any amount. If you can become a monthly sustainer, Jean and I do that.

John: Mm-hmm. We do as well.

Jim: Uh, John, you and Dena do that.

John: Yeah.

Jim: Uh, it’s a great way to help the ministry. It evens out the cashflow for the budget for the year or a one-time gift. Either way, we’ll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. If you can’t afford it, we are going to get it into your hands, so just call us and say, “I, I don’t have the money right now.” We’ll get it to you and we’ll trust others will cover the cost of that.

John: Yeah. Give us a call. Our number is 800, the later A and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459, or stop by the program description, uh, right there you’ll find a link, uh, for making a donation, also for getting a copy of the book, New Marriage, Same Couple, by Josh and Katie Walters. And then, uh, finally, there’s details there about Hope Restored, our marriage intensive. We’ve referenced it a couple of times, uh, these past few days. Uh, what a terrific program. If you’re struggling in your marriage, uh, talk to a counselor and learn more about Hope Restored. Again, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Josh and Katie, thank you for being with us. This is so good.

Josh: Aw, thank you so much.

Katie: Thank you for having us. We’re so grateful-

Jim: Appreciate it.

Katie: … for your ministry.

John: And thank you for joining us as well today. We hope you’ve found this to be really inspirational. And, uh, we trust that you have a good weekend with your family and your church family as well. Join us on Monday when we have encouragement about living a purposeful life.

Jeffrey Simmons: But what I’ve loved is just saying, “Every day, God, whether I’m in business or whether I’m in full-time ministry, I am in ministry, and how can I use that for the glory of God?” And then to see what God’s done, I mean, it’s only him, but learning to trust him, that still small voice in your heart, in your mind. When God prompts you, be obedient in that.