Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Preview:

Philip Yancey: There are a lot of people around us who, who don’t feel beautiful, you know (laughs), who feel like losers, who are deformed or just depressed, discouraged, and we can be the mirror that reflects back to them. There is something of beauty and worth in you.

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John Fuller: A profound reminder from Philip Yancey. And he was our guest last time on Focus on the Family. He’s back again today. And we’re so glad you joined us. Your host is focused president and author Jim Daly, and I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, we had a, uh, fascinating conversation last time with Philip Yancey, exploring how we were created in the image of God. We often use that language, but do we truly know what that means? Um, we also discussed how blood is not only essential to our physical bodies, but to our spiritual lives as well. And what’s the metaphor-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that God is using there. I love that. I’m like a kid in a candy store ’cause I always loved biology in school. I always thought maybe I could be a doctor someday (laughs).

John: Not too late.

Jim: The reality was business school awaited me (laughing) and I had to be a little more practical in my orphan status. So, uh, if you missed the conversation last time, uh, do download it, call us, get in touch with us. We can provide a CD if that’s how you listened to things or get the smartphone app-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and that way you have access to the entire library here at Focus on the Family.

John: Yeah. And of course we’re on YouTube as well. And, uh, we mentioned last time that Philip Yancey co-wrote, um, a combination of two great classics and, uh, it’s been updated. Uh, this book is called Fearfully and Wonderfully. The subtitle is The Marvel of Bearing God’s Image and, uh, of course will highly recommend you get a copy of that. We do have that here at the ministry, just stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or call 1- 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY.

Jim: Philip, welcome back to Focus on the Family.

Philip: Thank you, Jim.

Jim: It’s good to have you as always. And uh, let’s get back to the content. It’s kind of that parallel the body, the spiritual nature. What Dr. Brand taught you about the body. Uh, it’s really good (laughs). And this is an excellent resource. Uh, let’s start with the concepts of diversity and unity within the body represented in ourselves. Give us some examples-

Philip: Hmm.

Jim: … of what this diversity and unity looks like. It sounds like terms for culture, not for your body.

Philip: (laughs) Well, that’s how bodies work though. Um, if you lined up the different cells in the body, a neuron and a blood cell and a skins cell, and it, it would look like, boy (laughs), I can’t believe they’re all from the same body, but the body depends on that kind of diversity. And each one has a role to play, but it only works if they’re working for the good of the body. And it’s easy for us to value. In fact, Paul, when he’s talking about the body in 1 Corinthians 12 it’s yeah, I think he has a twinkle in his eye because he said there are some parts of the body that we tend to give much attention to-

Jim: (laughs)

Philip: … like eyes, for example, you know, we wanna make sure our eyes look well. And, and uh, if they’re in danger, we immediately go to the eye doctor, but he says, you can get along fine without eyes. Think of Helen Keller, you know, she couldn’t hear, she couldn’t see, but she had a very fulfilling life, but there are some parts of the body. And he says, there are unpresentable and we, we treat them with special modesty. This is Paul writing and I go to a doctor and I asked him, “What do you think Paul is talking about?”

Jim: (laughs) Right.

Philip: And he said, “Well, there are some cells that you can’t live without. Kidneys and colon. If your kidneys shut down, you’re gonna die within a few days. If your colon shuts down, you’re gonna die within a few days.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Philip: So you can get along without an arm, you can get along without, uh, eyes or ears, but you can’t get along without those cells that we kind of don’t even wanna think about. You know (laughs).

Jim: Hmm.

Philip: And I saw an application of that during COVID because we tend to have our own hierarchy of who really counts, you know, at the top would be people like jet pilots and, uh, hedge fund managers and NBA basketball players. You know, these would be the people at the real top, we were reward them. NBA player may make $20 million in a season and then go, when COVID hits, it exposes our culture because suddenly we find out actually janitors are just as important in keeping you alive as the jet pilot (laughs).

Jim: Yeah.

Philip: They’re the ones who are scrubbing at the airport to get rid of these germs. And actually, uh, we may not be doing ourselves a favor by paying an NBA basketball player 200 times as much as a teacher, suddenly these parents are caught at home trying to teach their kids online and they realize these teachers work hard (laughs). We ought to reward them more. It kind of exposed our society because we, the body only works if we value each individual unit.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Philip: And as Paul said, those, we don’t like to even think about the kidneys and the colon. They are more valuable in keeping the body alive than the things that we give a lot of attention to like the, on our face.

Jim: No, it’s so true.

Philip: (laughs)

Jim: Isn’t it? And culturally that fits. I mean, what we appreciate has changed because of the pandemic. Um, that’s so true. In 1 Corinthians 12, the apostle Paul, as you’re relating, uh, uses the analogy of the human body to explain how the body of Christ should and should not operate. So when you compare those two bodies, what are some insights we can gain from 1 Corinthians?

Philip: One of the obvious ones is diversity, as you’ve mentioned, because Paul goes on to say, we don’t all have the same gifts.

Jim: Right.

Philip: You know, there are some who are able to stand in front of a congregation on Sunday morning and keep you engaged and teach you and be a prophetic voice. But there are others who wouldn’t do so well standing in front of a pulpit, but maybe can teach a fifth graders. Um, I admire those people (laughing). I would never [crosstalk].

Jim: Junior high teachers. Oh my goodness.

Philip: And then there are some people who are very good at keeping the chairs lined up in order after the congregation (laughs), you know, messes them all up.

Jim: Firstborns (laughs).

Philip: And we all have, yeah, we all have different abilities and spiritual gifts. And he goes on to describe what those gifts are. And they only work if they’re working for the entire body.

Jim: Yeah.

Philip: If you, if you wanna say, “Look at me, look at me. I can do something that somebody else can’t do,” then it’s it destroys the unity that the body needs. And Jesus was the greatest example because the night before he was arrested, he took his disciples in the last supper and said, “Here’s what I want you to do. I want you to be a servant.” So find the people that maybe are the lowest on the social ladder and wash their feet. That’s what I want you to do. And if you do that, then the entire body will thrive. If you go around saying, call attention to yourselves, a- as they were doing James and John kept saying, “Hey, could I be a super apostles?”

Jim: Yeah right (laughs).

Philip: Could I be the vice president of this group and, and their mother who would also harassed Jesus and he would say, “You’re missing the whole point.”

Jim: Right.

Philip: It’s about servanthood it’s not about egohood.

Jim: Yeah. W- which is so amazing. You know, uh, one statement that you made in the book that really caught my attention. I think it’s the golden nugget, you know, whenever we’re looking at these kinds of resources that you labor over to, right. That we’re only five or six minutes away from death.

Philip: That’s right.

Jim: I mean, I’ve never heard it said like that.

Philip: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And it’s related to our breathing apparatus that you cut off oxygen, you got five or six minutes for your brain to live.

Philip: That’s it.

Jim: That’s a, uh, thought provoking way of-

Philip: (laughs)

Jim: … looking at it.

Philip: Yeah.

Jim: That we’re always on the edge of not being here.

Philip: Yeah. Yeah. You’re absolutely right. That, a- a- and you can’t go through life being afraid of that.

Jim: No, but it’s phenomenal-

Philip: It is-

Jim: … focusing.

Philip: … it is.

Jim: (laughs)

Philip: And I had a, an experience back in 2007 here in Colorado. Uh, I was going on an icy road early one Sunday morning and hit a patch of ice and like, uh, Ford Explorer fell off a cliff and turned over and over five times.

Jim: I remember that.

Philip: Yeah. And I ended up with a broken neck and little hospital, uh, did a CAT scan and they said we don’t have enough resolution to know whether the carotid artery has been pierced has been penetrated, but we’ve got a w- by a little piece of bone, but we’ve got a jet standing by to fly you to Denver for emergency surgery if indeed it’s been pierced. But frankly, just between you and me, if the carotid artery has been ruptured, you’re not gonna make it to Denver. You’ve only got a few minutes. So here’s the phone call the people you love and tell them goodbye just in case. And that’s one of those wake up calls. And I I’m so grateful and fortunate that I can look back on that story. Because if it had been pierced, I would have been gone-

Jim: Right.

Philip: … in five or six minutes, you know. And it was a good reminder. You just can’t count on life, going on. You should live your life in awareness that today may be the last, when you kiss your wife goodbye. When you kiss your kids goodbye, that may be the last time.

Jim: Yeah. There’s no guarantee.

Philip: That’s right.

Jim: And especially, uh, relating that to how your system breathes, how your body breathes, your lungs, just that act of taking in air.

Philip: Yeah. And you know, in the Bible, the word for breath, pneuma, is the word for spirit, they’re the same word. So that’s a beautiful analogy-

Jim: Yeah.

Philip: … that just like the physical body needs, new oxygen, new breath in getting rid of old stuff every couple seconds, frankly. And certainly every few minutes, because if you don’t get in new resources within five minutes, you will die. Just hold your breath underwater and you know, you only have a few minutes-

Jim: Right.

Philip: … maybe three minutes to live. And our dependence on God is similar. You can’t just kind of pull him out on Sunday morning and say, “Okay, today’s the day to think about God.” No, that catches up to you. It’s a constant being aware of the presence of God and calling out and dependently to say, “God, I can’t do this alone. I don’t want to treat that person like I should. I need your help. I want to re flashback and anger and hurt somebody. Get some revenge. I can’t do that alone. I need your help. I need your help.” Just like we breathe. We need the oxygen in and we need to get rid of the bad stuff out. The same thing is true spiritually.

Jim: When you relate that to being spiritually out of breath.

Philip: Mm-hmm.

Jim: How do you translate that? And how do we regain a more oxygen filled spiritual (laughs) life and oxygen being the Holy Spirit I would say.

Philip: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a discipline. You know, years ago, Richard Foster wrote this book about the Celebration of Discipline and you don’t think of discipline as something to celebrate.

Jim: (laughs)

Philip: But, uh, the human body teaches us that things work best when they’re regular and dependable so that I don’t have to sit here and think, “Okay, Philip, you gotta take a breath now-

Jim: Right.

Philip: … you gotta exhale now.” You know, it’s just built in and it’s harder (laughs), frankly, under conscious control, it’s harder to develop something parallel spiritually because we’re lazy, you know (laughs), and discipline who wants discipline. But if you do that, if you have a regular pattern of meeting with God, if you have people around you who will call you accountable, then it does become much more natural. You don’t have to think about it in the same way. It’s just part of the routine and that’s health in a spiritual body in the same way our body act acts like that physically.

John: Mm-hmm. We’re talking today on Focus on the Family with Philip Yancey about, uh, many great concepts as, uh, captured in the book, Fearfully and Wonderfully: The Marvel of Bearing God’s Image, uh, co-written, um, by Philip and the late Dr. Paul Brand, uh, stop by our website for your copy or give us a call. That’s focusonfamily.com/broadcast or call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.

Jim: Philip, uh, we did a broadcast recently with a neurosurgeon-

Philip: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … Dr. Lee Warren.

Philip: I know Lee.

Jim: And you know Lee. And he mentioned you, and he mentioned how much you mentored him and encouraged him in writing his story. And, uh, it was a phenomenal program talking about brain science-

Philip: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and what he saw in Iraq as a surgeon, a trauma surgeon, and you know, the things that he had gone through and crisis of faith, uh, dealing with people with cancer brain tumors that he knew would not pull through. And is it futile to pray and all those things. Let’s turn to the bodies CEO, as you called it in your book, the brain, what a fascinating organ.

Philip: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jim: Uh, describe th- the brain for us.

Philip: (laughs) What strikes me most about the brain is that, uh, we never get to see it (laughs). And it’s the most isolated part of the body. Actually, it’s in this thick, bony skull. I’m sure Dr. Warren could tell you what it’s like to try to drill through that. The, you know, it’s the hardest-

Jim: Right.

Philip: … part of the body actually, and the brain has never seen anything. It’s never smelled anything. It’s never heard anything. It relies on these nerves that go out through the nose or through the ears and through the eyes. And it relies on the rest of the body to inform it of what’s going on. The brain has… doesn’t even feel pain.

Jim: Right.

Philip: Lee Warren would tell you, once you open the skull, uh, do you do need anesthetic for that obviously to cut through, but you could touch a match to the brain or, or cut it.

Jim: It doesn’t feel.

Philip: Doesn’t feel, ’cause there’s no reason for it to feel because it’s so well-protected by that skull. You know, the body is very economical. It only protects what needs protecting. And to me, that’s a beautiful picture of the way God works in the world. God is spirit and we can’t see God. And he set up this earth, I think to give himself pleasure. I think that’s why God created the world. He created us to give himself pleasure. And, and yet he turns over a, a good CEO doesn’t try to do it all by himself. He knows that it’s, it’s the entire group of employees. I mean, you know that as the CEO himself, you’ve got your role, but somebody makes sure that the air condition is working-

Jim: Right.

Philip: … or the reader is working and the lights are working and somebody cleans up afterwards. And somebody, uh, you know, does the various tasks around here, the engineers who put the radio program together. A CEO often, uh, has one of the most relaxed jobs. Everybody else is the one scurrying around and God works like that. And in fact, you know, I referred to Philippians 2 where it talks about Jesus. He gave up the prerogatives of the Godhead and came to be a human being, not just a human being, but a servant, a servant who turns over the mission to the rest of us.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Philip: In fact, when Jesus left earth, I’ve often asked myself, wouldn’t it have been better if Jesus had stayed around?

Jim: Yeah (laughs).

Philip: Because you know, we have an ethical issue or something. So how do you really, how should we really deal with this issue going on right here? We could just call up Jesus and say, “Hey Jesus, who should we vote for? What should we-

Jim: (laughs)

Philip: … what should we do?” But he didn’t. And when he left, he said, “It’s actually for your good, that I’m going away.” He said to his disciples, these guys who hadn’t really, uh, demonstrated much ability to that point (laughs), but he said, “It’s for your good, because now you’re the ones. You’re the rest of the body. And I will live through you. I’ll, I’ll still be the head, the CEO.” Paul uses that phrase. He’s the head of the body. And the more we tune into that head, give the feedback in the way my senses do that’s called prayer, give the feedback and get wisdom and get guidance from that body. From that head, the more we do that, the entire body will function as, as God meant it to.

John: Yeah. Along those lines, Philip, um, we all know somebody that is broken physically-

Philip: Mm-hmm.

John: … may be born with some obvious handicaps-

Philip: Yeah.

John: … or maybe with something, you know, um, that isn’t wired, what we would call normally-

Philip: Yeah.

John: … um, mentally, how does that play out in what you’re talking about?

Philip: Yeah. Let me just tell you a story of a woman I met at a leprosy hospital in Nepal right next to India. We were being given a tour by a doctor. And I looked out at this is, there was a courtyard of grass. And I saw this woman and I got to tell you, she was one of the least attractive human beings I’ve ever seen in my life. She didn’t have any fingers left. Her hands were just nubs. She, her feet were bandaged up and she had no toes left. Her eyes were crusted over. She’d been blind for years. Her nose had shrunken away. So that when you looked at her, you look kind of right into her skull. And so we got the tour of the hospital and on the way back, this woman had crawled all the way across the courtyard. She couldn’t walk.

Jim: Yeah.

Philip: She plant her elbows and drag her body behind. She had heard our voices. And so I assumed, uh, that she must be a beggar. What else can you do in a situation like that in Nepal? And I reached into my pocket to feel if I had some coins to give her and my wife, who’s a social worker in a hospice chaplain had a much more different and holy reaction than I did. She went over to this woman and put her arms around her.

Jim: Wow.

Philip: And the woman started singing. And what she sang was we didn’t know Nepali, of course, but we didn’t need to. We heard the tune, (singing), and the doctor giving us the tour said, “Oh, I, I want you to meet Dunmaya. She’s no beggar. Dunmaya’s the closest thing to a Saint that we know. She’s there every time the chapel doors open. In fact, Philip is there anything you need prayer for? Because her prayers tend to get answered.” And I, I looked at her and I thought, here’s this woman that by the standards of the world, that most of us go by, most of the time is a loser. She has no beauty about her. She has no wealth. She has no income. Um, she has no CV, you know (laughs).

Jim: She has to drag herself across the floor.

Philip: Has to drag her…yet in that deformed defective body, the spirit of God shines brightly. And in my own experience, people who most impress me- in fact, I, I came up with this phrase that I, I used that pain redeemed impresses me more than pain removed. You know, I think of somebody like Joni Eareckson Tada.

Jim: Oh yes.

Philip: Who I know has been on this broadcast-

Jim: Yes.

Philip: … many times. And I looked and she tried so hard to get healed. Everybody who had a gift of healing has prayed for Johnny at some point in life, but she wasn’t healed, but she took that curse. What it seemed like at the time of her disability and turned it into a blessing to the church. It became a, a prophetess. She reminded us all of what we needed to do to reach out to the disabled people. And I, I think, again and again, I found people that on one hand, you’d think, oh, how sad they had this disability on the other hand, um, they shine with the spirit of God-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Philip: … more than the, uh, the rich and successful.

Jim: Mm-hmm. That’s really powerful, uh, Philip and what a great reminder for all of us to think about those that are less fortunate in this life.

Philip: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, I can’t imagine their anticipation of heaven-

Philip: Yeah.

Jim: … and eternity and leaving the things that have been such a struggle here-

Philip: Right.

Jim: … and being fully functional in the life to come. Um, in many ways as a reward for their faithfulness here, I would think-

Philip: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … how God sees them. And it takes a lot to praise God when your circumstances are down.

Philip: Yeah.

Jim: And that’s really who you find out what you’re about, right?

Philip: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Um, when chips are down, what are you? Let’s end here with, uh, your reflections on Dr. Brand-

Philip: Hmm.

Jim: … ’cause obviously he was the coauthor. He passed away in 2003, you worked with him closely over 10 years in the original books. And now the, uh, the new book Fearfully and Wonderfully with Dr. Brand, you’ve said that no one has affected you in quite the same way. And given the fact that you’re an incredible author processing so much great content for all of us, millions of your books have sold to say that this man had the greatest influence in your life. It’s the right question.

Philip: Mm-hmm.

Jim: How?

Philip: Yes. Well, I, I had no father growing up. My father died of polio when I was one year old.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Philip: So I have no memory of him whatsoever. And of course, back in those days, 1950 people were as afraid of co- polio as they are today of COVID-

Jim: Interesting, yeah.

Philip: Ebola virus, some of those things. And growing up fatherless when I was just starting out my writing career, uh, there were a lot of things I was unsure of in my own faith. Like I mentioned, I came from a, a dysfunctional church and some family issues as well. And I really needed somebody to be a mentor, to be a father to me.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Philip: I kind of like this, you know, we, most people don’t get to choose their fathers (laughs) and then they have to go through this teenage rebellion years. I was already past that and I somehow God put the two of us together, Dr. Brand 40 years older than I was, or so, but wise and any question I had, I could take to him. We did some bouncing around in the, in the Jeeps of India or in a surgery room or in the, uh, subway, the Tube in London, places all over the world where I interviewed him. And he had already, already thought about those questions. And he had some answers for me. And what I, I guess what impressed me most, I’ve interviewed a lot of people as a journalist over my years. And Dr. Brand is the most impressive in terms of his accomplishments, his wisdom, his knowledge, his expertise, he’s very thoughtful, speaks a number of languages. I’d ask her a question and say, “Well, the Greek and the Hebrew, you know.” (laughs)

Jim: Yeah.

Philip: And yet he spent his, most of his career among the lowest people on the social ladder in the world. I guarantee you, there is nobody lower on the social ladder than somebody from the untouchable caste, a Dalit in India who has leprosy.

Jim: Yeah.

Philip: That’s as low as it gets. Kicked out.

Jim: They’re kind of, most of the low.

Philip: It is.

Jim: Yeah.

Philip: They’re kicked out of their own families out of their own villages. And here was this brilliant surgeon who gave his life and you think, “Oh, what a martyr.” No, no, no (laughs). He was one of the most grateful and joyful people I knew. And because he was serving God and he was seeing these people being transformed, people like Dunmaya, and he felt privileged to be, to have that job of working with them. And it there’s one statement in the Bible Jim, you probably know that is repeated by Jesus more often than any other six times in the gospels. So it’s very important and I’m paraphrasing here. But what Jesus said in effect was, um, you don’t gain your life by acquiring more, more.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Philip: You know, that’s the American way, acquire degrees, acquire success, acquire money. You find your life by giving it away-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Philip: … in service to others. And that was Jesus’ style. That’s what he did. He came and gave his life away and to see this brilliant man live out the truth of that because he found his life by giving it away. And he, I never felt sorry for him for a minute. He was (laughs) fulfilled in every way because Jesus was right. That’s how you really find meaning in life, not by feeding yourself, but by giving it away to others.

Jim: Mm-hmm. Phil, this has been so good. And again, you’re such a profound thinker. I’m not just buttering you up here, but God’s really given you a gift-

Philip: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … to look at something as simple as the human body with your co-author Dr. Brand. And to express that in a way that kind of ignites the imagination again-

Philip: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … which is a wonderful achievement for an author. And you do it so beautifully with all of the books that you write.

Philip: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Um, thank you for being with us. It’s a privilege to be with you.

Philip: Well, it was a thrill for me. I remember speaking at Dr. Brand’s funeral and I said, we had an interesting exchange. I, I gave words to his faith. I contributed to the words, but in the process he gave faith to my words.

Jim: Wow.

Philip: Um, he really put my faith on a solid foundation because I, it, it only takes one-

Jim: Yeah.

Philip: … one person who actually is a follower of Jesus in the way Jesus showed us to convince you this thing’s real, it’s true.

Jim: Boy, that says a lot about your friendship.

John: We’ll do look for a copy of this book, Fearfully and Wonderfully: The Marvel of Bearing God’s Image. It was written by the late Dr. Paul Brand and Philip Yancey. We’ll send you a copy of that book when you make a monthly pledge of any amount to the ministry of Focus on the Family. If you haven’t done so please consider becoming a sustaining member of our support team, allowing us to produce broadcasts like this one and provide resources like Philip’s book. Uh, your monthly donation allows us to continue to introduce more families to a life-giving eternal relationship with Jesus Christ. So we invite you to join the support team in that way, a monthly pledge or a one-time gift, uh, either would be appreciated. And you can donate when you call 800-A-FAMILY that’s 800-232-6459, or online at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: And John, before we close, uh, we need to remind everyone about the upcoming pro-life event we’re hosting in Dallas on August 28th. It’s our celebrate life live experience, where we’ll feature great speakers and musicians who will inspire you to become an advocate for life in today’s culture. Our goal is to change hearts and minds about abortion and equip you to have life-changing conversations with your friends, colleagues, and family members. So please make plans to join us at the American Airlines Center in Dallas on Saturday, August 28th, and sign up for our prayer guide and check out the powerful series of videos that we’ve created to help you better understand the issues involved. We’d love to have you participate.

John: Yeah, we would and details are at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or just call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Well coming up next time on this broadcast, a singer songwriter, Tiffany Lee, otherwise known as Plumb offers encouragement to moms of daughters.

Preview:

Tiffany Lee: She cared more about holiness than my happiness- … and more about faithfulness than my friendship. And she hoped that by caring about holiness and faithfulness that one day there may be some happiness here and there may be a friendship.

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John: On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I’m John Fuller inviting you back, as we once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.