Day One
Preview:
Curtis Chang: It’s not like we have to get rid of anxiety and then we can be at home with the Father and the Son and the Spirit. Actually, the Father, the Son and Spirit come to make a home with us in our anxiety.
End of Preview
John Fuller: Such encouraging words from Curtis Chang. He was with us earlier this year to share about managing anxiety, and it was one of our best shows of 2024. We’re back with it again today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, and thanks for joining us.
Jim Daly: I wasn’t surprised that this show connected with so many people because anxiety is such a big issue in the culture today. More people are dealing with anxiety than ever before, and anxiety can be a painful topic because many people have been told hurtful things about anxiety, both in the church and outside the church. So today’s show, and again, I think this is why it connected, is full of practical tools for you to cope with anxiety and to understand the situation of anxiety and to share with loved ones who are struggling with it.
John: And if all of this feels overwhelming to you and you’re struggling, get in touch with us because we have a great team of caring Christian counselors who can help. Reach out to us to set up an initial consultation. We’ve got a link at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or give us a call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Curtis Chang is a writer, speaker, and theologian. And, uh, he wrote a book called The Anxiety Opportunity, which is the topic of this Best of 2024 show.
Jim: Curtis, welcome to Focus on the Family.
Curtis: It’s great to be here.
Jim: You know, we’re gonna get to your personal story ’cause what I so appreciate about it, who you are, is you’re a person who has struggled with anxiety. And so you’re coming not only from a theological perspective, but from someone who had to do that. But before we get there, uh, comment on just the general situation with anxiety and the culture. You know, when you, y- you look at data and research, which we do here at Focus on the Family, this is, uh, a continually rising issue in our culture. How many of the Gen Z’ers are struggling with anxiety? It, it should concern all of us.
Curtis: Absolutely. I think any listener to this show, prob- almost certainly, either in their own family or extended family or friends in church, has a child, a teenager, or even adult-
Jim: Right.
Curtis: … who’s struggling with anxiety. The latest NIH statistics shows, um, almost 60% of teenage girls suffer from very significant anxiety or depression.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Curtis: One in four have contemplated committing suicide because of how serious that condition is.
Jim: Think of that-
Curtis: Yeah, yeah.
Jim: … one in four, stop and just rest there for a minute. That’s 25%.
Curtis: It’s an amazingly high number and should cause us to real- recognize something is wrong that we need to address here.
Jim: When you look at it, uh, you and I met at a conference and I heard you speak, and I came back to the team and said, “We’ve gotta get Curtis Chang,” (laughs) because I… First of all, I really appreciate the title of your book, The Anxiety Opportunity: How Worry is the Doorway to Your Best Self.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: You said something at that conference that really caught my attention. It was the West, and the way the church, and western medicine particularly, uh, misses the mark in going after anxiety.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: Describe that for us again.
Curtis: Yeah, I, well, I would say both the West’s secular mental health, but also the West’s church, Evangelical Church in particular, um, we need to make an adjustment here because what we’re doing is not working. And what we’re… What’s not working is both the church and secular mental health are treating anxiety solely as a problem to solve-
Jim: To-
Curtis: … to make it go away.
Jim: Yeah (laughs).
Curtis: Right? ‘Cause once we define something as solely a problem, we are, like, looking for a solution to make it go away. So in the church, this is where you get, in a lot of traditions, the pray anxiety away, just have enough faith and anxiety is supposed to go away because anxiety is a spiritual problem. It’s either, in extreme cases, a sin or maybe just a lack of faith or a character flaw. So we’re supposed to just pray, read enough scriptures, and anxiety is supposed to go away. In other church traditions, maybe they don’t spiritually stigmatize anxiety, but they still then just outsource anxiety to secular mental health and just say, “We’ll refer it to the secular therapist, psychologist,” and so forth. And in that tradition, it has its own version of solely treating anxiety as a problem to go away. Rather than pray anxiety away, it’s prescribe anxiety away-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Curtis: … either with medication or therapy, which, just to be clear, both prayer and therapy and medication I have done. I’m a fan of. But when you engage that with this idea, this paradigm, this framework that says anxiety is solely a problem to go away, you go down a path that actually makes anxiety worse.
Jim: Hmm. No, that’s interesting.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: Let, let’s, uh, kind of reveal your childhood-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … and what you were struggling with and take us through that. What was childhood like and where did that anxiety start?
Curtis: Well, b- I think my anxiety started in a lot of ways, but w- what was interesting is in my childhood, uh, I didn’t have any terms or categories to label what I was experiencing in anxiety. I grew up as an immigrant family in a Chinese American culture. So, uh, in that sort of traditional immigrant culture, the response to a child feeling anxious is, “Don’t be so anxious. You have nothing to worry about.”
Jim: (laughs).
Curtis: Or, “Just work harder.”
Jim: Yeah.
Curtis: “Study harder.” Right? Um, so the-
Jim: Well, performance is big.
Curtis: Performance is big and there’s just not a category for anxiety. And anxiety, in a sense, brings on shame-
Jim: Hmm.
Curtis: … for the family that there’s something wrong with the family. And so growing up, um, I actually was an anxious child, but I just didn’t have any categories for it. And another reason why, I think in addition to the cultural reasons, was I adopted what psychologists call highly functional anxiety. So what highly functional anxiety is, there’s actually deep anxiety going on, but the person, myself in this case, has learned very functional behaviors to cope and cover over-
Jim: Compensate.
Curtis: … at least temporarily, compensate for the anxiety. So for me, it’s planning, thinking ahead, working very hard, which turns out, if you do those things, you get ahead in the world.
Jim: Yeah (laughs).
Curtis: But the anxiety is still there and it’s actually, in a way, a hidden engine for a lot of these behaviors of just really staying on top of things.
Jim: Right.
Curtis: Yeah. Yeah.
Jim: Part of it, in the story that I’ve read-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … is, you know, you were what i- is called a latchkey kid.
Curtis: That’s right.
Jim: Describe, describe how that aided your anxiety.
Curtis: Right. So again, I’m an immigrant, uh, immigrant family, so both parents are working. So, uh, even as young as eight years old, I’m coming home from school. Uh, and this may not be familiar to all younger listeners, but there was a thing called a latchkey kid where-
Jim: Yeah, (laughs) right.
Curtis: … even as young as eight years old, you would go home and you would get a key from the latch, you know-
Jim: Yeah.
Curtis: … hidden somewhere and you would let yourself in. And I just remember this pit of s- in my stomach feeling of opening that door thinking… And again, this is part of what anxiety does. It generates scenarios in one’s head-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Curtis: … about what could be happening. And my scenario as an eight-year-old was somebody broke in the house, they’re ransacking the house, and as I opened the door, I’m going to surprise them and they’re going to have to come down and take care of me, not in the good sense of taking care-
Jim: Right.
Curtis: … of me. And so-
Jim: Hmm.
Curtis: … I would come home, let myself in, and then if I heard a creak… It was an old house. I, if I heard a creak in the attic, I would go running back out to the front of the house out of fear that there was a burglar in the house.
Jim: Mm.
Curtis: My sisters would come home and they were like, “What are you doing outside?” And I would come up with a cover story, like, “Oh, I just wanted to play. I just wanted to get some fresh air,” because I could not admit to them, I didn’t have the language or the ability to admit to them, “I’m feeling anxious.”
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s an incredible intensity for an eight-year-old.
Curtis: Yeah. I’m an intense kid. (laughs) I was an intense kid.
Jim: Yeah, I mean-
John: (laughs).
Curtis: I’m an intense guy, I suppose.
Jim: But I mean that, yeah. I mean that’s-
Curtis: But that’s, but this is what, uh, if we don’t actually recognize and name anxiety’s going, going on, we have to do something with it. And so we, again, either pray it away, prescribe it away, or in my case, highly function in it away.
Jim: Yeah.
Curtis: Um-
Jim: In that context-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … in the book, you say-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … “Christians are not spiritual latchkey kids.”
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: That’s, I mean, understanding it, that’s a beautiful statement.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: What do you mean by it?
Curtis: What I mean by that is we don’t have to come up with our own coping mechanisms to kind of make anxiety go away or to manage it. We actually have a Father and a Son, a family in God who is going to come home and, in fact, already has made their home with us, and actually has made their home with us in anxiety. It’s not like we have to get rid of anxiety and then we can be at home-
John: Mm-hmm.
Curtis: … with the Father and the Son and-
John: Mm-hmm.
Curtis: … the Spirit. Actually the Father and the Son and Spirit come to make a home with us in our anxiety. And this is the key thing that I’m trying to convey in the book is, it’s not that we need to push anxiety away, pray it away, or prescribe it away, and then we can get our act together enough for to have a relationship with God. It’s actually through anxiety, not away from it-
John: Mm-hmm.
Curtis: … or around it, uh, but actually through anxiety, that is where anxiety is actually the opportunity for spiritual growth. And that’s the invitation for all Christians.
Jim: You know, Curtis, even in the church, you have this dichotomy of people that people that are the glass is half full and those, the glass is half empty. Unfortunately, the world and social media and news and cable news, and I mean, it is kind of aimed right to that anxiety and to amp it up.
Curtis: That’s right.
John: Hmm.
Jim: Um, what’s happening with that? I’ve described it like a can of something has been uncorked.
Curtis: Yeah. That can is called smartphones and social media. So if-
Jim: Right.
Curtis: … you look at the research of Jonathan Haidt, a well-respected social psychologist, he’s got a great book coming out very soon, that just shows pretty persuasively that this hockey stick rise in anxiety, especially among teens and children, but adults in general, is pretty strongly correlated with the rise of smartphones and social media.
Jim: Wow.
Curtis: Basically what’s happening is we are getting bombarded with images that are designed algorithmically, by the algorithm, right, uh, to actually stoke anxiety because it turns out that anxiety is a great driver for clicks.
Jim: It’s sticky.
Curtis: Uh, it’s very sticky. You wanna find the next thing you’re… And this is part of the stickiness of when we try to make anxiety go away, uh, not by going through anxiety, but just by coping it. We think, the next swipe, the next information, that’ll make me feel better. And the algorithms are actually set up to give you some relief he- momentarily and then to ramp up the anxiety, uh, a little bit later to kinda keep you hooked on it. And so that’s the external cause. And I think we can, we… There’s things we need to do as a society, as a church, to deal with the external drivers of anxiety. But I’d liken this to a storm, right? There’s a storm that is caused by high weather patterns, pressure systems, that’s like social media, technology, increasing isolation in our society. These are external factors we need to actually attend to. But if you think about a storm like Katrina, right?
John: Hmm.
Curtis: Why did Katrina cause so much damage? Yes, there were these external factors just like the equivalent to technology and social media, but the real damage was because the levees broke. Right? The structures that we’d set up to deal with these external factors were not sufficient, were built on, uh, inadequate foundations. That’s the message I’m trying to get out about anxiety. Yes, there are external causes, but the levees, the foundations, the biblical foundations that we have erected to deal with anxiety, are built on flawed foundations. And that’s what we need to address as well.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John: Hmm. Great insights today from Curtis Chang. He’s our guest on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And he’s written a terrific book, The Anxiety Opportunity. Uh, learn more at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or give us a call, 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.
Jim: Eh, Curtis, eh- there, again, are things that we say within the Christian community-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … that are both helpful and sometimes unhelpful. I think Philippians 4:6, I think you referred to it as the clobber verse.
Curtis: (laughs) Yeah.
John: (Laughs).
Jim: Describe what that… Tell us what it is and then why is it used as a clobber.
Curtis: Well, it’s the verse that says, “Do not be anxious about anything,” you know?
Jim: Yeah.
Curtis: Um, and it’s often used to actually portray anxiety as a sin, as something that you should not have. And that Paul’s statement in four, Philippians 4:6 is like saying, “Don’t be anxious. You shouldn’t be anxious.” I could almost hear my mom and my parents and my culture speaking that to me. Uh, or, you know, you’re supposed to pray enough that it goes away. Uh, in my book, I go into more, uh, sort of exegesis for why I think that’s a misread of Philippians 4:6. The most obvious reason is in Philippians 2:28 earlier, Paul talks about his own anxiety, when… About his own anxiety about sending Epaphroditus back to the Philippian church. He says, “So that my anxieties may be addressed.”
John: Hmm.
Curtis: So it would be very odd if having just a few passages earlier, Paul saying, “I’m anxious around this whole situation with Epaphroditus,” he goes around and says, “And if you’re feeling anxious, you’re sinning.” Right? “So you shouldn’t be anxious.” So, you know, it’s, and that’s just one verse, but I think mo- the most powerful biblical exegesis about anxiety is just to recognize that Jesus himself experienced anxiety.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Curtis: So all of the passages around His experience when He was about to confront loss, the loss of all losses, His death, uh, He’s in anguish. He has physical symptoms of anxiety. He’s sweating so intensely that it’s described, I think metaphorically, as sweating blood. Uh, Jesus is experiencing anxiety. Why? Because he’s human.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Curtis: He is the one true human. Right? And when human beings are about to, or, uh, contemplating the possibility of loss in the future, they will experience anxiety. That is a natural human reaction that Jesus himself went through, not away or not around. He didn’t pray it away, didn’t make it go away. He went through it because that’s what human beings are. And that’s what true human beings do, is when contemplated with loss, the possibility of loss, we feel anxiety. And this is why it’s important to distinguish anxiety from anxiety disorder. Right? Anxiety is the natural human experience, often experienced physiologically or mentally, in the face of impending loss. Jesus himself experienced it. Anxiety disorder is the inability to handle, to hold, to experience anxiety. This is why I love the title of this show, How to Handle Anxiety. Not How to Make Anxiety Go Away, but how to handle it, how to hold it, how to experience it. That’s what human beings are invited do. Because it turns out that just like Jesus went through His anxiety with the Father, we too have the invitation to go through anxiety w- in Jesus with the Father and experience true transformation.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, that analogy or that scriptural reference is so powerful because, uh, you know, of course Jesus was sinless and he did experience that anxiety in Gethsemane. And, and really his resolution to that was not my will, but your will be done.
Curtis: That’s right. Yeah.
Jim: And relate that to the solution. You know, when you’re having anxiety, the trust that we have in God’s care for us, no matter our circumstances-
Curtis: Yes.
Jim: … that that will bring you a, hopefully a place of, to a place of peace and rest.
Curtis: Right. And this is where it’s so important to not label anxiety itself as a sin or a problem to make go away. Because if we say anxiety is a problem to go away, what we’re really saying is loss is a problem to make it go away. Right? That loss itself, uh, is something that we should not experience.
Jim: Right.
Curtis: Um, and so if that’s true, then we are going down a false gospel. Because what that means is we are then portraying God as the great sort of insurance scheme in the sky.
John: Huh.
Curtis: That’s supposed to insure us from experiencing any loss. Right? Because if anxiety equals loss, that means then we have to make loss go away, if we’re saying we’re gonna make anxiety go away.
Jim: But to a degree, isn’t that our culture? I mean, we want all pain to go away.
Curtis: That’s right.
Jim: We wanna bubble wrap the kids. We don’t want them to get a boo-boo-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … emotionally-
Curtis: That’s right.
Jim: … or physically. So we’re kind of, as a culture, we’re, uh, I would say we are dead set on protecting our kids at all costs. And I don’t know that that’s healthy.
Curtis: Well, and I think the Christian culture has absorbed that and spiritualized that in unhelpful ways.
Jim: Huh.
Curtis: Where we expect that the answer to anxiety is to pray it away, which actually means you’re supposed to pray that that loss that you fear does not happen. That God is going to protect you from that loss of job, the marital stress, your, your kid’s suffering, and so forth. And if that’s true, then we’re in trouble. Because I think all of us who are Christians for a while have come to realize, when we pray for loss to go away, which is a good and right thing, natural human thing to do, God does not answer every single one of them by saying, “Yes, I will ensure you-
Jim: Right.
Curtis: … “from facing that loss.” Just like He did not quote-unquote “save” the Son from the loss that He experienced on the cross.
Jim: You mentioned a formula in the book.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: What’s the formula with dealing with anxiety?
Curtis: Well, I, I say anxiety equals loss times avoidance. So anxiety equals loss. Right? Anxiety is what natural human reaction to the face of impending loss. We’re gonna experience anxiety because we’re going to experience loss in our life. Right? Unless we are so deluded that we think that-
Jim: Right.
Curtis: … we’re somehow we’re protected from that.
Jim: It’s probably the lessons that God is showing us for eternal benefit.
Curtis: So the, the, I say lost times avoidance because the one thing we can make anxiety go higher, the multiplier effect, is if we actually try to make anxiety go away, try to make loss go away if we try to avoid it. Right? And there’s nothing wrong with asking God, “So, hey, please take this cup away from me.” Jesus prayed that Himself.
John: Yeah.
Curtis: But ultimately we have to make that transition to say, “But Your will be done.” All right? So this is where, if we can transition from avoidance to actually holding, to actually where we can actually hold loss, manage it, handle it, suffer it.
Jim: What does that look like practically, though? I mean, you’re dealing with this, you’re a professor, this is what you’re working with every day.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … at the every person place.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: What does that look like? In fact, I think you have some (laughs) very practical tools to help us do that.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: What does that look like?
Curtis: Well, I think, um, my book sort of outlines, I think, a pathway we can follow.
Jim: Yeah. Like naming the loss.
Curtis: Naming is the loss… Is one of the most important things.
Jim: What does that sound like? Again, just help me ’cause I, I’m not sure I know what you’re meaning.
Curtis: Let me tell a story-
Jim: Yeah.
Curtis: … that illustrates this from my own m- most intense experience of anxiety. So what happened was I replaced the founding pastor of a growing church. Uh, never a great job by the way-
Jim: (Laughs).
Curtis: … I’ve, I’ve come to learn, uh, because, uh, a lot of people are sort of have their eyes on you and you feel this great pressure to measure up to the founder. Uh, I took over just the same time that the dot-com bust hit Silicon Valley. So there was a massive exodus of people from the region, from the church, giving goes down. And I’m in my first year-
Jim: True.
Curtis: … as the pastor-
Jim: A lot of stress.
Curtis: … replacing… A lot of stress. But I had it internalized, again, this framework that anxiety is a sin, a sign… Or at least a sign of lack of faith. And how could your new pastor go ahead and confess that I have… I don’t have faith. Right? Or I lack faith.
John: Hmm.
Curtis: So I just tried to work harder, do more work, couldn’t name what really was going on.
John: Yeah.
Curtis: I couldn’t name. This is because I am suffering from anxiety and anxiety about my performance and how all of you will think about me. Right? So it’s, instead I, it’s a workload. It’s a lot of, uh, more pressures and demands. So then I generally sleep around seven hours, a, a, a night. That went down to about six, then five, then four. And again, I couldn’t name this as actually this is classic signs of anxiety, loss of sleep. I couldn’t name it as such. Just kept naming it as uh, I, my body needs doesn’t need as much sleep because it’s ramping up to face the, this-
Jim: Yeah, meeting the challenge.
Curtis: … difficult work. Meeting the challenge. I’m meeting the challenge.
Jim: (laughs).
Curtis: Exactly. That’s right. Um, and then my sleep went down to four, then three, two. And then I went through a two-week period where I do not remember consciously falling asleep at all.
John: Hmm.
Curtis: I must have had micro sleep-
Jim: Yeah.
Curtis: … ’cause your body can’t handle it. But I don’t remember consciously falling asleep for two weeks in a row. And that, that is torture. That is like, your mind starts fracturing. It’s, it’s an intense form of suffering, that experience. And I got to that, and basically that I had a breakdown and I actually had to leave the pastorate ’cause I couldn’t function anymore. It slid over into a deep depression. It got that bad because I could not name what was happening for me. And to name it as actually I’m feeling anxiety. I just had to push through. And that my coping mechanisms, my highly functioning strategies that had served me so well from eight years old on just broke down. And this is what can happen with people who seemingly are doing well because they have really high functioning, uh, coping mechanisms. But at some point if they don’t actually name and actually experience and deal with their underlying anxiety, it can lead to this kind of, uh, breakdown.
Jim: Yeah. I mean, that’s a powerful story in terms of how to manage it and how to, how to cope with it.
Curtis: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Um, you shared with us earlier you went to counseling. You mentioned that, uh. When you’re dealing with that severe anxiety, when would you say it’s time to get help? And what does that help look like?
Curtis: Yeah, I think it’s time to get help when it feels overwhelming, when you realize that I, uh, I’m lacking the tools, I’m lacking the ability. Uh, or when you’re feeling very alone, I think is another time, uh, to get really help. Uh, when you feel like things are very complex and it’s, you can’t sort it out in your mind. Having somebody else to help you be a listener and a mirror to you can be very helpful. So those are some of the common signs.
Jim: Curtis, one of the key, uh, push backs we will get-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … obviously is how we, uh, integrate science, medication-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … and issues, uh, like anxiety.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: Address some of those common kind of theological and medical constraints that we suffer from in the Christian (laughs) community.
Curtis: Yeah. Well, I think mental health can be a very helpful tool to help us get our anxiety into… At a level where we can actually look at it. So, uh, you know, Psalm 1:39 says, “Search me and know me and know my anxious thoughts.”
Jim: Hmm.
Curtis: So this is a key part of how anxiety becomes an opportunity for spiritual growth, is we can actually, in a, uh, invitation to God, invite Him to help us know our anxious thoughts. What’s really going on there? The challenge is, sometimes the anxious thoughts have gotten so big that they actually overwhelm us, that we can’t actually even look at them. They’re just a monster or, or they’re so, uh, unclear in our heads. And this is where I think therapy can help, help us look at it a little more clearly. And then a medication can help bring the monster back down to a little bit more manageable size.
Jim: But also to not feel guilty if that is what is needed.
Curtis: A hundred percent. Yeah. This is absolutely part of God’s provision to humanity is medicine. Um, and, you know, Christ is in all things. So done, rightly done with the right motivations, uh, I think it’s a perfect… And I’ve, I’ve benefited from myself. The distinction I wanna draw is, though, is that managing your anxiety, bring it down to some manageable level is not the same thing as spiritual growth. This is what secular mental health can’t offer, is it can’t actually offer anxiety as an opportunity for spiritual growth. It, it simply, it’s still stuck in the, it’s a problem have to either make go away or at least bring it down to manageable size. But it can’t see it as an opportunity for spiritual growth-
John: Huh.
Curtis: … in, at least in the fully Christian sense. And this is where I think there’s a helpful partnership between secular mental health and spiritual formation.
Jim: When you talk about, uh-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … being fully present and-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … describe that again, so, uh, you know, the person on the street can grab what you’re saying, but being fully present-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … you say, allows anxiety to, eh- eh- the possibility of anxiety to be better managed.
Curtis: That’s right. It brings it down to size because anxiety is the fear of future loss. Right? Anxiety is fear of something that’s gonna happen in a future scenario.
Jim: Yeah.
Curtis: This is why Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 6 says, “Don’t worry about tomorrow. Come back today. Look at the lilies, look at the birds.” He’s trying to bring his listeners back to the present. Because what happens is anxiety… One way to think about anxiety, it’s a hijacker, it’s a mental hijacker-
John: Mm-hmm.
Curtis: … that basically hijacks us from the present moment into the future. And because the future is unknown… In the future, once anxiety is hijacked you into that future state, it could spin all sorts of scenarios, like a burglar has broken into your house.
John: Hmm.
Curtis: Right? Because that’s a future scenario, as an eight-year-old, I’m spinning in my head. So one of the ways that we bring anxiety back down to size that you can do without medication, right, or, or with medication even, as a partner, is to simply learn practices, spiritual practices that are ancient Christian spiritual practices of leaving the future, of refusing to get hijacked into the future and coming back into the present with God. And things like breathing, meditation, uh, scripture can be helpful in this, nature, can be very helpful as a ways for us to actually get back to the present.
Jim: Well, Curtis was so honest and shared so much wisdom. I hope you were encouraged today and that you came away with a sense of peace. That’s the goal. That’s God’s shalom. Uh, Curtis had so many more practical tools to share in the second part of this discussion. So join us tomorrow for that. Uh, we had so many people mention how much this show meant to them. One listener said, “This is such an answer to prayer for me and my daughter. Thank you so much.” And we need your help to keep being answers to prayer for families all over the world. Please consider giving financially as the year comes to an end. We’re a non-profit ministry. We survive because people donate and pray for us. And your donations will allow us to keep doing ministry this coming year and give more families hope. And when you make a gift today, your donation will be doubled, a dollar for dollar through a matching campaign of some of our friends. And every one of those dollars will go right back into ministry to save more marriages, protect more pre-born babies, help the moms that are in that tough spot, and also support parents.
John: Yeah. Donate today, generously as you can. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. When you get in touch, let me recommend you get a copy of the book by Curtis Chang, The Anxiety Opportunity. Uh, he has so much wisdom to share, we couldn’t pack it all in today. And, uh, when you make a donation of any amount to the ministry today, we’ll send a copy of The Anxiety Opportunity as our way of saying thanks for being a part of the support team. Again, our number 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. That’s 800-232-6459. Or donate online at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And by the way, this show is part of our Best of 2024 audio collection, as we’ve noted. And you can check out the entire collection online. It’s free, 18 shows and, uh, the details are at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two Preview
Curtis Chang: What’s happening in anxiety is we are facing some loss. But th-, what’s happening is rather than realizing it’s a future loss, we think it’s happening right now.
John Fuller: What great insight and inspiration from Curtis Chang. And he joined us earlier this year to talk about handling anxiety. Now that was one of our top programs of 2024. And we’re back with it again today, on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, and thanks for joining us.
Jim Daly: Everyone experiences anxiety because life is stressful. It has a sense of normal-ness to it. But many parents know that having young children can be one of those stressful seasons. And as yesterday’s show covered, even Jesus experienced anxiety in the Garden of Gethsemane. The key is to turn to God through that anxiety. But sometimes, we need a little extra help to get to a healthy and manageable place. And we want to provide you with the resources that you need to do that. Please don’t suffer in silence and, um, you know, pretend you’re okay. You can reach out to set up a free consultation with one of our caring Christian counselors in order to talk through what you’re feeling.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. They really are terrific at listening to where you’re at, and then helping you understand kind of the path forward, next steps. And if you’d like to make that appointment, give us a call. Our number’s 800, the letter A and the world FAMILY. Or we’ll have a link for you at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. We’re really so pleased to be able to have the chance for you to hear part two now from Curtis Chang on today’s Best of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Jim: Curtis, welcome back to Focus. So appreciate it.
Curtis: It’s great to be here.
Jim: You know, last time we talked about your, um, management in dealing with anxiety as a boy as a latchkey kid and coming home full of anxiety. And I can relate to that. I too was a latchkey kid, before probably the term was latchkey.
Curtis: Right.
Jim: (laughs) W- would it be that it’s so old.
Curtis: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yes, uh, it’s the dungeon door that was locked. No. But, uh, y- you know, d- d- I think in my way, when I was thinking about that for you, you know, being from a poor family, which I was, that caused me anxiety. I never really thought of naming it that way.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: But I would make excuses for why I didn’t get the new baseball mitt, or why I didn’t have the football uniform. And, you know, “Well, me and my dad’s looking for it, he just hasn’t picked out the right one.” That’s-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … uh, you know, that line of embarrassment versus anxiety, speak to that, uh, understanding, you know. When are we anxious and when are we just embarrassed about our surroundings and our, or our circumstances?
Curtis: I think it’s important to recognize how much shame there is over anxiety. There’s this sense that, um, especially if it’s been spiritualized as a sin or a lack of faith, there’s a lot of shame. But, just generally, you feel weak. You feel not in control. And so, invariably, we are tempted to be ashamed about that. And when, scripture tells us, uh, one of the ways we cope with shame is by hiding. Uh, this is, was a first reaction for Adam and Eve, right?
Jim: Yeah.
Curtis: And so, we can hide our anxiety by pushing it away, n- re-narrating it, pretending it’s something else. I tell the story in this book of the time where I was pitching in Little League as a, I think it was a 10 or 12 year old.
Jim: Everybody has a bad Little League story.
John: (laughs)
Curtis: Highly traumatic.
Jim: Why do we do this? (laughs)
Curtis: That’s right. (laughs) And in my case, I was the pitch, I was being brought in to pitch for the first time. And I just could not throw a pitch anywhere near the strike zone.
Jim: (laughs)
Curtis: Um, and it was because I was anxious.
Jim: Right.
Curtis: Because I was anxious. And, uh, when you get anxious, uh, your body reacts a certain way. It tenses up. It clenches. It, it, the fluid motion you need to pitch, completely d-, you know, departs from you. And, but I couldn’t n- right there on the pitching mound, name the reality that I was feeling anxious, just like later in my adulthood, as a pastor standing on the stage, I could not name the reality that I was feeling anxious. And so you come up with cover stories. You come up with, uh, ways to actually make it something that it’s not. And, uh, at that particular story was, I was pr- s- trying to indicate that the real reason I was having trouble pitching wasn’t because I was anxious.
Jim: (laughs) Right.
Curtis: It was because the sun was in my eyes. And so I would do this very elaborate like, you know, like, “Oh, my gosh, I’m just being blinded.” I’m pulling my cap down, throwing my glove up to shield. Um, and that worked enough til I somehow managed to get three outs through some miraculous-
Jim: (laughs)
Curtis: … intervention of God. Um, and then I walked off and I broke down in tears as soon as I hit the sidelines-
Jim: Oh.
Curtis: … because I couldn’t keep up the cover story anymore. And so what that illustrates is we all have cover stories that we are prone to hiding our anxiety. And that actually gives anxiety more power. The things that we keep hidden actually have more power in our lives, and more power precisely because we’re not looking at them, we’re not naming them. And so they end up m- actually causing a lot of damage, not just on the field of Little League, but actually i- in the field of our marriages, our parenting, our jobs, were unrecognized and unnamed anxiety actually are in control, uh, but we just don’t know it.
Jim: Well, and what you’re describing is that we learn these things in childhood.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, that’s what you’re saying. We learn to cover up. We learn the ways of Adam of Eve-
Curtis: That’s right.
Jim: … in essence, to cover up and to make excuses for things. And then we just carry that into teen-hood, adulthood, et cetera, if we don’t deal with them. In that context, wh- you know, some of the terminology that you’re using sounds v- v- very rooted in psychology. But these are biblical things. I mean, we, w- in the Christian community, we’ll talk about does the Lord have access to that closed closet door?
Curtis: Right.
Jim: That’s what you’re relating to, these things that we don’t want the Lord to see, these hidden things about our behavior, our attitudes, et cetera.
Curtis: Right. And it’s not just a issue that prevents us from managing anxiety. At some level, we do need to manage our anxiety so that it doesn’t control us.
Jim: Right.
Curtis: But the real opportunity, why I wrote the book and titled it The Anxiety Opportunity, and not The Anxiety Management, right-
Jim: Right.
Curtis: … is because actually the deepest, uh, invitation of God is to actually go through our anxiety as an opportunity. As an opportunity for spiritual growth. To get at the parts of our heart that we, ourselves, don’t want to look at, or actually have some cover story around. Anxiety, if we’re willing to actually follow its path, and go through it, actually it’s like the bread crumbs that lead us to the actual state of our soul. That if we can follow that Psalm 139 in junction to say, “Search me, Oh God, know my anxious thoughts. Know my innermost being.” We will find, actually, deep, deep realities that are actually like the key hole to profound spiritual growth.
Jim: Mm. That, uh, (laughs) I mean that, and so we all say, “How do we get there?”
John: Yeah.
Jim: (laughs)
Curtis: Well, we get there by w-, again, by recognizing-
John: Yeah.
Curtis: … that anxiety is the fear of some future loss. So one of the ways in which anxiety then becomes this opportunity it becomes an opportunity to have God examine how do we actually think and feel about loss. Because this is w- again, I think, one of the most important things for Christians to recognize, is that Christianity, the life of following Jesus, is not a life of loss avoidance. We are so tempted to think that when we follow Jesus, h- what He promises us is a life devoid of loss.
Jim: Mm.
Curtis: Right, and which is why the anxiety becomes a problem. Because we’re like, “Wait a minute. What’s going on? I’m feeling anxious.” Well, you’re feeling anxious because you are contemplating the possibility of loss. And if your only response to loss is, “Jesus, make that loss go away,” we will be disappointed.
John: Mm-hmm.
Curtis: And we will have a crisis of faith, because God d- actually never promises us a life devoid of loss. Quite the contrary, Jesus says, “If you want to follow me, you must lose your life.”
Jim: Mm.
Curtis: Right. You must actually experience loss. Because the real promise of the gospel, is not loss avoidance, or loss prevention, or loss insurance. The real promise of the gospel is loss restoration. It’s resurrection.
Jim: Right.
John: Ah.
Curtis: It’s resurrection. And resurrection, you only get to resurrection through death.
John: Mm-hmm.
Curtis: You only get to the restoration of life through the loss of life. Right? So this is fundamental to the Christian life, is we have to go through loss to get l- life.
Jim: In that context, in the book you say there’s two main types of habits that people fall into. Psychology would say this is right out of your brainstem-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … fight or flight.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: So discuss that. Uh, what is that mechanism? And why is it there for everybody? And what does it do for us?
Curtis: Sure. So this is a helpful way to understand what’s happening in anxiety. What’s happening in anxiety, is we are facing some loss, but th- what’s happening is rather than realizing it’s a future loss, we think it’s happening right now. We could be, ’cause we’ve been hijacked into the future, right? So, the job loss, the loss of this relationship, wondering what’s gonna happen to our kids. Tha- we think it’s happening right now. And so our body is reacting with the same mechanisms that God gave us to handle threats in the present, right? So, if there was a fire breaking down, if there was a wolf before us, we w- our bodies are wired to respond with a fight or flight response. Psychologists have added more like freeze and other things. But, but let’s stick with the basics of fight or flight. So fight is, “I’m going to f- rally my body’s resources and my mind’s resources to fight the thing ahead of, in front of me. I’m gonna deal with it.” Okay. Flight is, “Oh, my gosh, it’s too big, I’m going to run away from it.” And this pattern of fight or flight, really characterizes, I think, a lot of people’s different responses to anxiety. It is because different people are fight or flight people. So, I for an example, I’m a fight person. If I have a problem before me, if my daughters are struggling in school, I’m gonna go into consultant dad more. I’m gonna be like, “How do we get you more tutoring? How do we solve what, you know, get you into a better class?”
And my way of then getting anxious is what I call rumination, or not what I, it’s what is called rumination. This is where your mind-
Jim: Yeah.
Curtis: … just turns over and over and over, because you’re fighting to get to a solution. Right? To, that will make this loss go away. You’re goi- turning it over and over, around and around. That’s, you’re fighting with it. Other people, like my wife, they’re more flight people. They want to avoid the issue. So they want to change the topic, they don’t wanna talk about money, if money makes them anxious. Or they, and they just want to distract themself. They wanna watch a movie. They wanna go on social media. Frankly, a lot of addictive behaviors, almost all addictive behaviors, frankly, often are, people are dealing with some underlying anxiety by trying to distract themselves away from it-
Jim: Right.
Curtis: … through some other stimuli.
Jim: A coping mechanism.
Curtis: Pornography, gambling, you know-
Jim: Drinking.
Curtis: … drinking, and so forth. And so, what, what’s helpful for us, each of us, uh, and that this is another of the opportunity for spiritual growth that anxiety presents us, is it helps us to identify, “Wait, am I a fight or a flight person?” And what’s going on there, and how can I actually, one, get back to the present, and then in the present, ask the Holy Spirit to give me some different responses rather than the fight or flight response.
Jim: You know, I’ve never thought about this, but in marriage connection, I mean, typically, not always, and I get this, but typically, we marry people that are generally opposite. Extrovert with introvert.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: I’ve never applied it to the fight or flight mechanism.
Curtis: Oh, yeah.
Jim: Like, uh, a fight person, I would put myself in that category-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … “Let’s take it on. Let’s go.”
Curtis: Yeah. Yeah.
Jim: Uh, marrying a flight person. What kind of conflict that c- can that create in a relationship?
Curtis: Oh, it creates enormous conflict, because-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Curtis: … what happens, if we don’t realize that what’s going on for both parties, is anxiety, we then attach moral judgements to these different responses.
Jim: Mm.
Curtis: So this happens all the time in my marriage, where I wanna deal with something, and my wife will be, like, “You’re being obsessive. You’re being, you know, uh, or anxious. Or you’re being-
Jim: Right.
Curtis: … impulsive.” And so forth, like… And that feels like a moral judgment on my anxiety (laughs). But I don’t realize what’s going on, whereas w- I will judge her and saying, “You’re being avoidant. You’re being, you know, delaying. You’re procrastinating.” And so forth. And so we’re actually judging each other for these sort of surface level reactions, when underneath we’re actually both anxious about the same thing. But we’re just responding to it very differently, and now we’re judging each other because of it.
Jim: How do you manage that? (laughs) I mean-
Curtis: Well, this is, where again, if we invite God to actually come investigate, to name our anxiety, we can actually bring it to the surface, and realize, “Oh, this is what’s going on.” So now we have a shortcut in my marriage with Jody, where we just say, “Oh, wait. I’m doing the fight thing.”
Jim: Yeah.
Curtis: And she will oftentimes, will just do a, a running motion-
Jim: (laughs)
Curtis: … like this to signal-
Jim: That’s a good.
Curtis: … like a funny-
Jim: So you’re playful with it, and-
Curtis: We’re playful with it, we name it, we realize what’s going on, and realize let’s get to the underlying anxiety rather than our response markers.
Jim: Well, and it’s good to know those mechanisms are-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … at work, and you, and you d- most of the time, you’re not even going to know it-
Curtis: That’s right.
Jim: … until you stop and name it.
Curtis: That’s right.
Jim: Like you said.
John: Yeah. This is really good. And I might try this at home. (laughs)
Jim: (laughs)
Curtis: (laughs)
John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and I’m John Fuller. Our guest today is Curtis Chang. Uh, love hearing his heart, and, uh, so appreciate his honesty. Uh, his book is called The Anxiety Opportunity: How Worry is the Doorway to Your Best Self. Uh, so much good practical information here. Get a copy from us at Focus on the Family. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Curtis, let me ask you, uh, even in that title, How Worry is the Doorway to Your Best Self, some are hearing that going, “Oh, my goodness, I can’t believe that.” But, when we’re talking about best self, we’re talking about it in a Christian context, right?
Curtis: Right. Yeah.
Jim: So what does that… Describe the characteristics of the best self-
Curtis: Hm.
Jim: … in a God context.
Curtis: I think the best self is one who is willing to face loss with faith, loss with faith and God. Not, uh, the right faith, not faith that God has promised me that I can avoid all loss. But that any loss is bearable in Christ, because, one, I am with Christ, and two, Christ will raise me up from all of my losses in the end. Their, your best self is your resurrection self.
Jim: So it sounds like what we really have the problem with is trust?
Curtis: Yeah. Trust in the true answer, right? Not the superficial wrong trust that God will never let me suffer. Or not will, God will never let me experience loss. But the deep trust of a resurrection people that says, “No loss is final. No loss will, cannot be reversed in the end in the resurrection.”
Jim: Yeah. Uh, we’ve got a little bit of time. H- h- how do we stop avoiding loss and start holding it like you described? And what does that mean to hold your loss?
Curtis: Yeah. One way to think about holding loss is to imagine loss as a rubber ball. Right? Just imagine wh- the thing you fear losing in your life, uh, again, your children, your job, your self-image, and so forth. Uh, if you imagine it as a ball in your hand, think of the avoidance moves as you’re pushing it away. Or, you’re turning it over and over in your head. Uh, this is the rumination, the around, right? You’re getting stuck with it thinking, “With one more turn, I will come up to this scenario where this loss goes away.” Think then, and imagine holding loss as just holding that loss in your hand, l- feeling the full weight of it. Another biblical term for this is grieving. Grieving is holding loss. Grieving is actually just not pushing it away or co- trying to come up with scenario where it, it won’t happen. It’s just saying, “It happened. It is happening. Or it could happen. And if it does happen, it will be grievous. I will grieve it.” And when we can actually grieve losses, we recognize, “Oh, you can endure it.” You can actually hold loss. It’s not something we have to run away from, or s- turn around it to make go away. Uh, grieving teaches us that actually loss is holdable. And that’s what Jesus did. Jesus grieved in the Garden of Gethsemane. And then, I would say the second thing that Jesus did in Gethsemane is He didn’t grieve alone. He wanted to grieve with His friends, His disciples. Now it turns out, His disciples could not stay awake and be with Him, but Jesus wanted that. He recognized that grief, loss, was not meant to be endured alone.
Jim: Hm.
Curtis: It was meant to be endured with others, with our friends, with our family, ultimately, with God. Such that, even if we are abandoned and all our friends falls asleep at the wheel, uh, like th- uh, Jesus’ experience, we still have the Father. But, the, the best design that Jesus was signaling, was do this with others. Do this with friends. Uh, and then, of course, w- we learn the practices of prayer, where we are reminded that this loss is not final, this loss is held in the resurrection promise of the gospel.
Jim: Wow. There is so much in here.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Um, when does anxiety point to underlying, uh, idolatry?
Curtis: Oh, that’s a great question. Um, I would not say that every anxiety, uh, that people experience is a evidence that there is underlying idolatry, only that it could be. And this is why in Psalm 139 it says, “Search me and know me, see if there is any offensive way within me.” Another, other translations say s-, “Is there any idolatrous way within me?”
Jim: Mm.
Curtis: Because what idols are, idols are false promises that are, been created by the world or by ourselves, that promise you can avoid loss, “If you worship me, you can avoid loss. If you obey me, you can avoid loss.” This is from the very beginning, in the biblical times, before travelers would go on a journey of uncertainty, or a child would be sick, they would sacrifice to an idol, because idols are, they pray on our anxieties because they make a false promise, “If you obey and worship me, you can avoid loss.” And this is why anxiety’s a profound opportunity for spiritual growth, because it’s an opportunity for God, through the Spirit, to investigate our anxieties and see, as Psalm 139 says, “Is there any idolatrous way within me?” Am I clinging on to some idol here to deal with my fear of loss, rather than the resurrection promise?
Jim: Yeah. That, no that is so profound. I sometimes, as a kid, I’ve always scratched my head why people knock on wood. (laughs)
John: (laughs)
Jim: To not be injured and not be hurt.
Curtis: That’s right.
Jim: You know, “That’s never happened to me.” And then they knock on wood.
Curtis: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I remember being eight years old, going, “Why are they knocking on wood?” (laughs)
Curtis: Well, you know, human beings, deep down, w- hate loss. We want to avoid loss, so we will go to superstition, we will go to idol, idols. We will distort the gospel even, to make it to be a loss avoidance scheme.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Well, that, that’s powerful.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: And I think we need to be mindful of it.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: That somehow, deep-rooted in our human nature-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … is this desire.
Curtis: Totally.
Jim: And it’s kind of getting to the core issue, isn’t it?
Curtis: Yeah. And, and the desire is nature. Right? The question is, do, are we able to actually bring that to God and submit our fear of loss to God’s promises?
Jim: Putting that in the parenting context-
Curtis: Yep.
Jim: … I mean, for Jean and I-
Curtis: Mm.
Jim: … this has always been, you know, the mountain and the molehill.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: You know, “Hun, that’s a molehill.” “No, it’s not. It’s a mountain.”
Curtis: (laughs)
Jim: And I can see that anxiety in the parenting, uh, picture b- bright and clear.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: And usually one of the, of the husband/wife team-
Curtis: Yep
Jim: … is not as worried, and the other one is hyper worried.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: But, e- generally, we, again, we kind of catastrophosize-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … whatever that word is-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … the idea of what our future children are gonna be like.
Curtis: Totally. I, that’d, I write about this a lot in my book, because that is a paramount anxiety I suffer from. I think it’s just a great and important point because, again, with so many of American teenagers, again, over 60% almost, um, suffering from anxiety, it means behind every anxious teenager, are anxious parents.
John: Mm-hmm.
Curtis: Right? And so, and I think listeners out there are probably know what I’m talking about. Is, when your kids are anxious, you are anxious. And so this, then, is actually an opportunity for spiritual growth for the parents, for the parents. The parents have to do their own work.
John: This isn’t a teaching opportunity, per se, for the child-
Curtis: Yeah.
John: … it’s really for me.
Jim: (laughs)
Curtis: Exactly. It’s both. Right? But the temptation is to externalize all of it-
John: Yeah.
Curtis: … and say, “You get fixed,” not realizing, actually I have my own anxiety I’m bringing into this whole equation.
John: Mm-hmm.
Curtis: And even my desire to fix my child is deeply bathed, often, in my own anxiety that they’re not gonna be okay. I gotta v- get them okay, and so forth. So anxiety of our kids is an opportunity for spiritual growth for the, to deal with anxiety of the parents, and for all of the, our own sort of coping mechanisms that are in play, all of our own false beliefs.
Jim: Hm.
Curtis: For me, the anxiety of my children was a recognition through this, you know, search me, uh, know my, my anxious heart, uh, process with God, was recognizing that I had an idol in my own parenting. My idol was the cultural idol that I grew up with, as a Chinese American, where my kids are s-, are a reflection of me, they’re an extension of my identity. So how they are in the world, is an expression of I am in the world. And that’s, I’m making them a little idol, right, to say they’ve gotta be okay for me to be okay.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Curtis: And that’s, the, parenting is done poorly when you are living with that kind of idolatry of your children-
Jim: I don’t think that’s an Asian American thing (laughs)-
Curtis: (laughs)
John: (laughs)
Jim: … I think, it, it’s everybody’s thing.
Curtis: Right. It’s especially intense-
Jim: Yeah.
Curtis: … in an Asian American’s, right? ‘Cause our f- our face-
Jim: Yeah.
Curtis: … our, uh, our reputation in the community is so attached to how our children do it.
Jim: The behavior.
Curtis: The behavior-
Jim: Right.
Curtis: … the performance, what schools they get into, and so forth. And this was my c- opportunity for spiritual growth was to realize, “Oh, the anxiety of my kids is triggering my own anxiety.” And that anxiety, if I lo- actually ask God to investigate it, is, there is an idolatry underneath all of that.
Jim: Now, and, and it’s so powerful, and, uh, you know, the key is how can parents help their kids who are dealing with that anxiety? And y- in practical ways, what can we do, um, to help our children if they’re, um, tipping toward not just managing, mismanaging-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … but they’re becoming compulsive with anxiety?
Curtis: Well, I think, obviously, get them the help they need. And that’s gonna be on a very individual, uh, basis, of whether it is counseling, medication, therapy, group support, whatever. So, I, uh, I, I think there’s no one-size-fits-all prescription here. So, get them the help they need. But I also think, as, uh, we’ve been talking about is also recognize that you have your own anxiety in play. And do the spiritual work of actually growing through that anxiety. And I think if they do that, this will enable them to actually, um, apply the most powerful parental intervention that a parent can apply to their child, which is actually more powerful than even get them to see the right therapist or get them on the right medication, which is acceptance, which is deep, deep acceptance. Because that is the one thing that actually parents can deliver more than anybody else, more than any professional can, is that they are accepted. And that is a deeply reassuring truth and reality for any anxious person to experience.
Jim: And I wanna, uh, I really want to punch this, because on the other side of that-
Curtis: Hm.
Jim: … we also have the power to communicate not being accepting.
Curtis: Disapproval. Right.
Jim: I mean-
Curtis: No. Yeah. Yeah.
Jim: … it’s as high as the other.
Curtis: That’s right.
Jim: And we’ve got to be very mindful as a parent to make sure that we are showing our children acceptance-
Curtis: Right.
Jim: … and love, uh, versus pushing them toward groups that will also offer acceptance-
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: … but it’s unhealthy.
Curtis: That’s right.
Jim: Right? Uh, right at the end, again, let’s hit it. Uh, how can Christians tangibly remember the promise of the resurrection? You mentioned it, I’d love to end there.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: Uh, why not? This is what it’s all about, is the re- resurrection of Jesus and what he sees in us. So, the importance of that, once again.
Curtis: Well, this is a larger topic, but I, I think anxiety actually offers an opportunity, because it actually says, “Okay, if I can actually name the loss that I’m feeling, that is triggering this anxiety, uh, I can imagine that loss.” And then, can you imagine going through that loss and having the resurrection on the other side where that loss is restored to us? So, if I’m fearing that I, loss of a job, and the economic insecurity, can I imagine going through that, and the resurrection day, when the feast is laid out on the Mount Zion, where no, there’s no want, there’s no need anymore? Right? So I think there is actually something here for our, to cultivate the Christian imagination for happens on the other side of loss, which is a beautiful picture of bodily resurrection and the restoration of all things.
Jim: Well, and, frankly, the answer is hope.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: The hope for that.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: That this is only the dry run, you know, down here.
Curtis: That’s right. Yeah.
Jim: And we’re gonna hit obstacles. And the Lord said that.
Curtis: Yeah.
Jim: And, uh, you know, they’re gonna persecute you because they first persecuted me. How about that one? And I think, in that context, that’s why I was so excited, Curtis, to have you on the program, and to talk about this great resource, The Anxiety Opportunity. It’s a different approach about how we see anxiety, and especially in a culture that anxiety is growing exponentially for the Christian community, to go deeper and better understand the tool that God, uh, provides us here to get closer to Him.
Uh, this is brilliant. So thank you for being with us.
Curtis: It’s been a pleasure to be with you guys.
Jim: I so appreciated that conversation with Curtis, and his willingness to share his own story, and I hope you feel equipped to manage the anxieties you’re dealing with and to encourage anyone you love who is struggling. Uh, here at Focus, we want to help you as well, and your family, to thrive in Christ, which is why we provide so many free resources like a free counseling call, podcasts, and websites full of articles and resources. We’re a listener-supported ministry, and the way we keep those resources free for families like yours is through those donations. So please consider giving back to the ministry and to those that also need help this holiday season. And during the end of the year, it really helps us plan for the future of the ministry, this coming budget year. Your donation will help us continue to give families hope. And when you make a gift today, your gift will be doubled through a matching campaign that we have going on with Friends of the Ministry. Whatever you give, twice as much, will be given to the ministry for a limited time. So don’t wait, make that $25 gift a $50 gift.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Donate today. Generously as you can. And, uh, our number’s 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. When you get in touch, get a copy of Curtis’ book, The Anxiety Opportunity, which has so much of his wisdom and story, more than we could cover in these two days. Uh, so donate generously and request that book. Again, our number 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or go online at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And by the way, this show is part of our Best of 2024 audio collection, as we’ve noted. And you can check out the entire collection online. It’s free. 18 shows. And, uh, the details are at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. On behalf of the entire team, I’m John Fuller, inviting you back next time, as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
