Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Dr. Kevin Leman: The little boy, the l-, or little girl you once were, guess what, you still are. And so you take that birth order with you, and you take it into marriage, and you live it out in the place of work and everything else. And it’s … to know who you are, what you came from, is important, and you’re affected by what’s above you in the family much more than what’s beneath you in the family.

John Fuller: That’s Dr. Kevin Leman describing the impact of birth order on relationships in your family, especially in your marriage. I’m John Fuller, and this is the first of many Best of 2024 shows we have for you this month on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Uh, Dr. Leman was our guest earlier this year, and his birth order message really (laughs) resonated with you. Uh, we wanted to share it again with you in fact.

Jim Daly: Uh, John, Kevin has been talking about this topic for the past (laughs) 40 years. You know, there’s a handful of authors that really hit a theme and, uh, Kevin has hit a theme here with The Birth Order Book.

John: Indeed.

Jim: My problem is, when he says what’s above you and what’s beneath you, I’m the end (laughing). I’m the baby (laughing). Everything’s ahead of me.

John: Everything’s … (laughing).

Jim: So they beat me mercilessly. No, they treated me … my siblings were great and protected me.

John: Of course.

Jim: But I’m sure they teased me a bit, too. Uh, birth order may not be an exact science, uh, but it does explain some interesting family dynamics about how we think and behave and why we do things that we do.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I’m looking so forward to reviewing this great content once again.

John: And, uh, here’s how you began the conversation with Dr. Kevin Leman on today’s Best of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

Jim: Well, let me ask you out of the … let me play the, uh, kind of the naysayer. Really, is it this simple, Kevin? Just because where you’re born in your birth order, it’s predictive of how you’re going to treat people, how you’re going to behave, what you’re going to do? Sounds a little too simplistic.

Kevin: Well, it is rather simplistic, but the fact is the little boy Jim Daly once was, he still is, and ditto for John Fuller. We think we change so much, but the apple doesn’t fall too far from the tree. And birth order, just to define birth order, is that fluid dynamic relationship that exists between parent and child, but kids with one another. Everybody in this room, we have guests here today-

Jim: I was going to mention that.

Kevin: … everybody has a birth order. And, uh, when I go to New York to do one of those morning shows, the publisher always reminds me, “Do not mention birth order.” Why? Because, if you mention birth order, the host or hostess finds that so, “Oh, gosh. We got to talk about that.” We don’t get to the-

John: To the rest of the other stuff.

Kevin: … to the pitch job I’m supposed to do on whatever book has been released.

Jim: Oh, there you go. Yeah.

Kevin: So that’s the God’s honest truth.

Jim: You are known for The Birth Order Book. But let’s, uh, let’s bring the audience in. We do have people that are going to ask you questions in just a few minutes, but welcome, everybody.

Audience: Hey. Hi.

Jim: All right, so mostly staff here at Focus on the Family and, uh, they’re going to put you to the test, so we’ll see where that goes.

Kevin: Good. I love tests.

Jim: But let’s kick it off, explain why birth order is important and what we can learn about each other based on the birth order.

Kevin: Well, again, it is based on a relationship with our parents. Now, let’s take the firstborn.

Jim: Did you know John’s a firstborn (laughing)? I just thought I’d point that out.

Kevin: Yeah. The firstborn is the lab rat of the family (laughing). If you think your-

Jim: Sorry, John (laughing).

Kevin: … if you think your, your parents knew what they were doing when they brought you into this world, I’m here to tell you they didn’t, okay, and they overreacted about everything you ever did. And they fussed about what you ate. And, uh, as you became a toddler, you know, if you picked up some dirt in a park and put in your mouth, uh, your mom freaked out, “Oh, honey, call 911. Take him to ER. He’s going to die.” You know, four years later, same park, uh, your little brother picks up an old cigarette butt, complete with filter, puts it in his mouth (laughing), chews it, and dad says, “Honey, don’t worry about it. It’s good roughage, good roughage (laughing).” So, as other kids come into the birth order, what happens is we loosen up. And I confess, when our daughter Krissy was born, our second-born daughter, 18 months behind Holly, my very first thought was she didn’t look like Holly. That’s my first thought. I th- … well, well, why would she look like Holly? She’s not Holly.

Jim: Right.

Kevin: And so, for all of us who’ve been parents, we see these little personalities pop out and you wonder where did this kid come from?

John: Yeah.

Kevin: You know, it’s just so different from the others.

Jim: What I want to do is apply this to marriage.

Kevin: Yeah.

Jim: And so, in order to give the audience kind of an understanding, just hit firstborn, middle, and last-born.

Kevin: Well, let’s take Mrs. Uppington, my pet name for my lovely wife that I’ve been married to for 56 years in a row (laughing). Uh, she is a firstborn, firstborn. I can do something very simply, like turn left, and she has a commentary on that (laughing), about how I could just go three blocks further, hit the interstate and I could save 58 seconds (laughing). Thank you for that helpful information.

Jim: I’m kind of with her (laughing).

Kevin: And so firstborn children are reliable, conscientious. They’re list-makers, if not the list-makers who are there making a physical list, it’s in their head.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Kevin: They know exactly how life ought to be. They don’t like surprises. They’re planners and organizers. So the firstborn knows how life ought to be. Her best, or his best bet, believe it or not, is not another firstborn. In fact, so many times, people complain to me behind closed doors, “Oh, my husband, he’s, he’s so different than I am,” or, “My wife’s so different.” Of course. You know, if you’re both the same, there wouldn’t be need for one of you in this marriage.

Jim: And those tend to be the more difficult marriages, when you are married to someone just like you in the birth order.

Kevin: Right.

Jim: Yeah.

Kevin: So sameness breeds competition, and I remind everybody marriage is not a competitive sport.

John: Mm-Hmm.

Kevin: And lots of times, if you listen to couples, they’re competitive over simple things, “Oh, we saw a movie Thursday night.” “No, it wasn’t Thursday, it was Wednesday.” So they become the great should-ers. So firstborns tend to should on other people, which essentially says, “You didn’t measure up.” And I’ve spent a lifetime … I have schools, charter schools, Leman Academy of Excellence, and they’re based upon my books. And we’re big on vitamin E, which is encouragement, not praise, encouragement, and it’s all about accountability. But, anyway, the point is that, when you go out of your birth order, you increase the probability of success.

Middle children, by the way, do we have any middle children here in the audience?

Jim: Uh, oh, one, one.

John: They all congregated at one table (laughing).

Kevin: Yeah. Now, let me be clear about this, we don’t care (laughing). Okay?

Jim: Oh, that’s cruel.

Kevin: But middle children really, I kid you, they’re the peanut butter and jelly of the sandwich. They never had mom and dad to themselves. They endured hand-me-downs. If they’re the same sex following that sister, you got her clothes, you know. Um, you had little Schnookie beneath you who got away with, we could say it together, murder (laughing). So the middle child is a relational person, tends to keep things sort of close to their chest, not real big on telling you who they are, but very good at figuring out social situations. Uh, interesting enough, I do a lot of talks to business groups, CEO groups, and CEOs tend to be firstborns. Entrepreneurs, interesting, a lot of middle children, because they walk to a different beat of the drummer.

Jim: Huh.

Kevin: Middle children are, again, they’re people persons. They’re relational. Uh, you go drop down to the babies of the family, name a comedian, a famous comedian, chances are you’re talking about a baby in the family. They’re the ones who decided, “Hey, that role’s filled, that role’s filled.” So they’re the ones that are most likely to be able to create drama. They can be manipulative, social, outgoing, never met a stranger. But babies of the family, okay, again, they can be manipulative, but they’re a good match for the firstborn. Now, to be personal, Mrs. Uppington, quite frankly, she needs me (laughing), because a simple dinner at our house on Saturday, I’m not kidding you, starts on Thursday.

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Kevin: And store-bought cookies are Satan’s cookies. Everything has to be made from scratch. And I help lighten her up, but she helps straighten me up.

Jim: Yeah. She gives you guidance.

Kevin: So there’s a balance beam there, yeah. So the middle children go with about everybody. They’re a good match for the baby. They’re a good match for the firstborn. They’re a good match for the only. And speaking of only children, the question is why are you an only child?

Jim: Right (laughs).

Kevin: I mean, did mom and dad say, “Well, that’s enough of those (laughing)?” No, but reality is that kid at seven or eight’s a little adult who is very much part of that triangle.

John: Mm-hmm.

Kevin: And that triangle, by the way, inverts, and when the parents get older, there’s nobody to help with mom and dad who are getting into the elder years. It’s just you.

John: Mm-hmm.

Kevin: So they need a good supportive mate to make that. So, yeah, like you said at the beginning, Jim, it’s not cookie-cutter. There’s variables that affect the birth order, like age spacing. We had two daughters 18 months apart, a son. We had our family, then we had our surprise at 42, our shocker at 48 (laughing). Uh, so that youngest child in the Leman family is like an only child.

Jim: Right.

Kevin: And she’s a toy designer. She’s got stuff in the Disneylands around the world. She’s very, very good at what she does, and she’s very perfectionistic, which is usually a skill that you see associated with the oldest in the family.

Jim: Huh. No, that’s so good. Uh, you share a story, in fact, about kicking one couple out of your office.

Kevin: Oh, yeah.

Jim: I think they were like-minded-

Kevin: Yes.

Jim: … or like temperament.

Kevin: Yeah.

Jim: And describe what happened there, ’cause so many people can connect to that.

Kevin: And, you know, I’m amazed I can remember them exactly. And they came in the office, and they would fight like cats and dogs coming in. You sit there. They’re paying me the long green, you know, to be their helper here. And finally, I said to them, this is about the second or third occasion, I’m not sure which one, I said, “You know what? We’re done. No charge. You guys are done. You guys go figure out if you really want some help, and when you really feel like you want some help, you come on back, we’ll see what we can do.” I just left it like that, and they did come back. We actually … that was a successful, uh, marital change. But you have to get behind your wife’s eyes, gentlemen. You have to get behind your husband’s eyes and see how they see life.

Jim: Yeah.

Kevin: And you need to know how to talk to your mate. I’ve spent a lifetime trying to teach women, who tell me their husband won’t talk, that you have to understand ladies, your husband hates your questions (laughing).

John: Ouch.

Kevin: He hates them. He doesn’t dislike them. He hates them. And most men aren’t brave enough to tell their wives straight out, “I hate your questions,” or that we hate the why word. If you want your husband to talk, you simply say, “Honey, I’d love your opinion about this. I’d love your opinion about that,” and he’ll talk your ear off. I’m not saying his opinions are right, or even worthy, but he will talk. So there’s keys to understanding how to open this communication between husband and wife, and you have to understand that God made us so different.

Jim: I want to … let me just come back and clarify because I, I think, with Jean, she’s a last-born daughter and she has a younger brother.

Kevin: Yeah.

Jim: So she’s like a middle child, but she has a lot of firstborn attributes.

Kevin: Oh, does she ever (laughing)? Yeah, she does.

Jim: So I mean, that one seems a little-

Kevin: You live with the woman.

Jim: Yes, I do.

Kevin: And I’ve been in the studio with her and she’s-

Jim: I am married to her.

Kevin: … and she’s delightful.

Jim: She is (laughs).

Kevin: Okay? And sometimes, by the way, when you hear the host wants to bring their wife in or their daughter or their son in, you go (laughing), “Oh, gosh, what’s this going to be like?” She is so good, and she represents the feminine side of life beautifully, and she’s very good with this guy, (laughing) who I think could-

Jim: Uh-

Kevin: … break china-

Jim: Rascal (laughs)?

Kevin: … in a shop real easily. And she’s got that wonderful … but she is a firstborn personality.

Jim: She is, but she’s the last-

Kevin: Oh, yeah.

Jim: … last-born daughter.

Kevin: And that happens for reasons. Now, let me give you an observation, and this isn’t something that I learned in graduate school, but if you put a critical-eyed parent in the family, the chances of having that firstborn be very firstborn-like is slim to none-

Jim: Huh.

Kevin: … because they’re going to be discouraged, and they figure they can’t measure up, so they tend to be good at defeating themselves. Now, if there’s a child within two years, chances are that second child is going to leapfrog over that firstborn and assume firstborn qualities, drive, perspective, success. At whose expense? At the firstborn’s expense. So that little rudder, okay, in your mouth, folks, be careful, because you being critical to your children, finding that flaw … and see, here’s the kicker, all you engineers who are listening, all you architects who use perfection in your work, do you realize it’s the same skill that makes you success in life, in your job, that works against you in the relationships with those you love? That’s got to be a eyeopener for most people.

Jim: Absolutely.

John: We’re enjoying a conversation with Dr. Kevin Leman today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And, uh, we’re going to suggest you get a copy of his book, The Birth Order Book: Why You Are the Way You Are, from us here at the ministry. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast for all the details.

Jim: Kevin, we’re going to get to the audience questions here, so get ready, everybody. Uh, but let’s hit the two other types, like two middle-borns that marry. Again, we’re, we’re going to the most conflict in marriage-

Kevin: Right.

Jim: … based on birth order. So what do they look like?

Kevin: Well, middle children avoid conflict with a passion. They want the oceans to lie smooth. Well, I got news for you, if you’re married, you’re going to have a few waves come along. Okay?

Jim: So what do they do? They hide, they-

Kevin: They tend to hide their feelings. And so these are the couples that have to say, “You know what? We know each other pretty good. We know our tendencies. Let’s make sure that we have date night once a week, whatever, where we just sit and talk about what’s on our mind.” One of the things I always suggest to couples is pray together audibly. Gentlemen, if you want to be a leader, in fact, I just wrote a book called Be a Great Leader by Friday, which ought to be a quick read since you got to be a great leader by Friday (laughing), but my experience has been that women, even today, where our roles have changed so much in our society, women still want that man who’s going to be a gentle leader. But that man who takes that wife’s hand and says, “Honey, let’s pray” … and you pray audibly.

What I love about that, especially for people like middle children, is you’re going to hear things from that woman’s heart, from that man’s heart, that you wouldn’t hear unless you had that time of prayer, because when you pray … by the way, where do you pray from? Do you pray from your ideal self or your real self? Hopefully, your real self, “Lord, you know I struggle with this. It’s not ideal. Make me this. Make me that.” It’s real. And so the audible expression in prayer is a great way to keep you on the road to being a couple. Remember this, judgments push you apart. Feelings bring you together. Feelings aren’t right or wrong. They’re just your feelings. But let me say this about feelings, since we’re talking about that marital relationship, if everybody here in the listening audience at Focus on the Family would just follow their feelings for 30 days, we’d all be in the county jail together (laughing), because you can’t go through life just following your feelings. So you have to be cerebral. You have to think things through to make that marriage everything it should be. But it gets down to relationships. Everything’s about relationships. You want to do those as well as you can.

Jim: Yeah. And let’s hit, before we get to the questions, let’s hit the last-born, uh, couple.

Kevin: Oh, those la-

Jim: … both last-born.

Kevin: The two la-

Jim: That’s got to be a lot of fun (laughing).

Kevin: It is, but who … you know, the lights go out on a Saturday night suddenly, and there’s no thunderstorm in sight. Wife says to baby husband, “Did you pay the electric bill (laughing)?”

Audience: No.

Kevin: “I thought you were going to pay (laughing).” I mean-

Jim: I paid it twice.

Kevin: It’s sort of an over-dramatization, but, you know, us babies … Well, I, I forgot two basic things I needed for this trip. Uh, it’s so much like me, and my wife has that list. She never forgets anything.

Jim: All wrapped in plastic (laughs).

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. She does, you know. My, my sister puts newspaper under the cuckoo clock in her living room. I’ll never understand that, (laughing) an ounce of prevention, I guess. I’m just different, you know. But the little boy, the … or little girl you once were, guess what? You still are. And so you take that birth order with you, and you take it into marriage, and you live it out in the place of work and everything else, and it’s … to know who you are, what you came from, is important. And you’re affected by what’s above you in the family much more than what’s beneath you in the family. If there’s a five-year gap between you and the same-sex child, you draw a line, start another family. There’s a physically-disabled, mentally-disabled kid in there, that throws things. If there’s … losing a baby, you know, uh, we lost two before our firstborn daughter, and I’m here to tell you that firstborn was special from day one.

Jim: Yeah. Okay. Let’s open it up and have some questions from the audience.

John: Yeah.

Jim: So just state your first name and, and your question.

Dena: I’m Dena, I’m a firstborn, and my question is about that. So I’m curious how, especially for believers who want to honor those traditional husband-wife roles and distinctions, how a firstborn wife can lean into those strengths and capabilities without steamrolling a middle-born spouse or usurping their role?

Jim: Wow (laughs).

Kevin: Well, since you, since you admit you’re a firstborn-

Dena: Yeah. I’m asking for a friend, right (laughing)?

Jim: Yeah, exactly.

Kevin: … you will agree, you will agree that you know exactly how life ought to be.

Dena: I have a good idea (laughing).

Kevin: So when you’re making suggestions to your husband, okay, you learn to preface things like this, “Honey, you know, I might be way out in left field. I may not know what I’m talking about, I could be wrong on this, but …” and then you slip them that commercial announcement (laughing), okay? And the tendency is to be too prescriptive and too demanding without even realizing you’re demanding. So even, “Honey, when you get time, you know, I’ve noticed that backyard is really getting pretty ugly. And, uh, I’d be glad to help you, or maybe you get the kids to help. But, you know, we got … a reminder, the Johnsons are coming over on Saturday.” Now, that is so much better than what sometimes Mrs. Uppington does to me, and she’ll say, “Um, Lemy, it’s Saturday. They’re coming (laughing). We need new carpet in the house, new furniture (laughing). Redecorate everything.” So-

Jim: So how should you react when it’s, “I have a list?”

Kevin: Well, th- … but she does have a list.

Jim: I know, but to actually-

Kevin: Let’s, let’s go-

Jim: … physically give it to the middle-born, last-born husband-

Kevin: Well-

Jim: … “Here’s my list that needs to be done by Friday.”

Kevin: … for the, for the baby, if you’re married to a baby, I, I wouldn’t be offended to have that list up there-

Jim: Yeah.

Kevin: … myself. I would appreciate that, because I don’t think about those things. I think about the moment, I’m not the planner-organizer, and I need her. And I think, when you realize how much you need each other, you realize, “We’re a couple here.” But firstborns, you know exactly how life ought to be, I’m just saying, hey, give the world a chance to catch up to you. We’re not there yet. I know you have all the answers in your back pocket. And by the way, when you speak well of your husband, as a firstborn, okay, you know when a job is done right, and when a job is done right or he did something really wonderful and you share that, especially in front of other people, you’ve thrown your seal-like husband a three-pound fish (laughing), and he’ll just, “Arf, arf, arf, keep them coming.” I mean, men get bashed today in our society, so when a woman just says something about that husband’s thoughtfulness, his kindness … I wrote a book called, uh, Be the Dad She Needs You to Be. And it’s got a catchy title, but my question is who’s the she? Is it the daughter? Obviously, ’cause it’s a daddy-daughter book, but the she is also mom. So when your husband is a great dad, you’re purring inside and saying, “I am so glad I married that man.”

John: Kevin, you’ve mentioned that, uh, your wife is a firstborn. How does Sande help you, as the last-born, you mentioned this earlier about structure, but how does she do that practically?

Kevin: Well, she can’t help but remind. I’m really good at forgetting things. I’ll get lost. In fact, Debbie is with me today, Debbie Backus, who’s my assistant. She’s been with me for about 35 years. But Debbie will tell people, when I’m at an event speaking, she’ll always remind them, “Keep your eye on Dr. Leman because he’ll wander and get in a conversation. You’ll be ready to start the session, he won’t be there.” So she’s really good about-

John: Details and obligations and-

Kevin: … the details.

John: Yeah.

Kevin: I’m not a detail person, but one of the things I’ve done in life right is I’ve surrounded myself with detail person. As a matter of record, I’ve had 17 editors in my writing career. 16 of them were firstborn or only-born children. The other was a liar (laughing). And, uh, there’s people who just … finding the flaw is great when you’re an architect, an engineer, a pilot, a dentist-

Jim: A doctor.

Kevin: … an anesthesiologist (laughing), but finding the flaw in people is not reciprocated in a positive way. So she’s been good, uh.

John: So she overlooks those flaws, obviously.

Kevin: Well, she can find the flaws. But, you know, I spoke recently at my home church, which is always a challenge, because these are the people who know you best, but I told them, I said, “My notes were on the kitchen table. Sunday morning, I get up, I got to speak at three services, and, and uh, there’s a note on it.” And so I get up there in front of the church, said, “By the way, Mrs. Uppington wrote me a little note. Here’s the note.” It’s 8:00 service. She’s not going to be there. The woman is never up at 8:00. She’s up about 11:00. She wished church was at 2:00 in the afternoon, but I won’t go into that in detail. But, uh, anyway, I read the note and it says, “Hi, babe.” So I said to the church audience, “This is a babe.” And she said, “I know you’re going to do well. Hit it out of the park. God love you,” you know, I mean, just a little encouragement. We’ve been married 56 years. I go on a trip and there’s a little note, uh, with Scotch tape on the front door telling me to, “Do a great job. People will love you. Just be yourself,” you know, and that’s that vitamin E. Everybody needs vitamin E. Your kids need vitamin E, okay? It’s encouragement, not praise. Praise is shallow, doesn’t last. You want to praise someone, praise God. But you want to encourage people. You give them those words of encouragement, and that’s the lasting glue that keeps you into each other’s lives. And it’s real easy to have everything, including your children … I mean, I’m quoting myself, we’ve seen the enemy and they are small. And they will drive a wedge between you. They can make you say things and do things you never thought you’d say or do. So it’s really important that, as a unit, that husband and wife are close together. If you’re in a blended family, you better be shoulder to shoulder or those kids will ruin your marriage.

John: And that’s how we concluded our Best of conversation with Dr. Kevin Leman on today’s episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And, uh, if you make a gift of any amount to Focus today, we’ll put a copy of Kevin’s book into your hands. Call 800-232-6459 to request yours, uh, again, that’s 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or donate and request the book at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. When you’re at the website, you’ll find details about the entire Best of 2024 collection. It includes a program about moms and anger with Amber Lia and Wendy Speake; uh, Dr. Rosaria Butterfield, a former professor and um, activist for LGBTQ, uh, describes how to love people where they’re at and proclaim God’s truth in word and deed; and then an inspiring conversation about heaven with John Burke. 18 great programs in all, and the entire collection is totally free. Contact us today to learn more.

Jim: And here at the end of the year, uh, let me ask you directly to help support the ministry. You know, we have about 200,000 households out of 5 million that listen to the radio program and podcast and everything else, so that cadre of supporters is actually doing so much. We had 170,000 couples helped through a crisis in their marriage just in the last year; 193,000 decisions for Christ; 600,000 couples, uh, Focus helped to build a stronger, healthier marriage. Be part of this. Let’s build the kingdom. I’d love to see us get 400,000 households supporting the ministry. 5, $10, let’s all pitch in. Uh, that’s how Jean and I support the ministry. It is that simple, folks. If we could hear from you, we can do more with the dollars that you give us, more in the way of touching people’s lives and aiming people toward the Lord. So if you haven’t given to Focus, go ahead, let’s do it together. Let’s make this happen and touch even more lives in the year to come.

John: Yeah, we can give families even more hope, especially now through a matching gift opportunity. Some friends of the ministry have stepped up and said, “We will double whatever comes in from your listeners today.” So, uh, consider a year-end gift today and see your gift doubled. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459, or donate and double your gift at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Now, tomorrow we’re going to hear from Pam Farrel offering encouragement to single moms.

Preview:

Pam Farrel: And in Psalms 27 it says, um, “He will keep me safe in His dwelling. He will hide me in the shelter of His sacred tent,” and that’s really a promise from God that He will take care of you, single mom. He will shelter you if you give Him a chance.

End of Preview