Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Day One

Preview:

Dr. Rosaria Champagne Butterfield: It’s not faithful and it’s not compassionate. If you don’t help people know that God saves sinners just like me, and He changes our lives. He liberates the captives. That’s the gospel.

End of Preview

John Fuller: Dr. Rosaria Butterfield is a familiar guest here on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And her life was dramatically turned around, uh, through the loving witness of a pastor and his wife. And you’re gonna hear that gospel story today, in one of our most talked about broadcasts of the year. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: And John, my dear friend, Rosaria Butterfield, was a tenured professor at Syracuse University. She was a lesbian activist who even testified in Congress for the LGBT cause. Uh, but here’s the thing, it reminds me that no one is beyond the reach of God.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And that’s so encouraging. She was opposed to Christianity, fought tooth and nail against it, wrote articles against it, in newspapers, in national newspapers. And, uh, guess what? She has been now a Christian for many, many years. Vigorously sharing the truth of God’s Word. Isn’t that fantastic?

John: Mm-hmm. It really is a wonderful story.

Jim: And when we first aired this conversation, one listener wrote the following message to Rosaria. “Your story has been so helpful. My daughter has chosen a lesbian lifestyle and distance herself from me and my side of the family. My desire is for her and others like her to find true love and life in Christ. Right now, I’m praying and waiting. Thanks for sharing your story.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, uh, man, God bless you for that response. And I pray that you and others will find encouragement as we again, present this eye-opening and inspiring discussion.

John: Mm-hmm. As you mentioned, Jim, Rosaria Butterfield was a Professor of English and Women’s Studies at Syracuse University, and she’s a very well-known author and speaker. She’s written a number of books, including, uh, the one that we’re gonna draw from today in the conversation called, Five Lies of Our Anti-Christian Age. And, uh, you visited with Rosaria in Durham, North Carolina. Let’s go ahead and listen into that conversation on today’s episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

Jim: Well, Dr. Butterfield-

Rosaria: (laughs).

Jim: … uh, it’s great to have you here on Focus on the Family.

Rosaria: It is wonderful to be here, but you must call me Rosaria. You know that.

Jim: Okay.

Rosaria: (laughs).

Jim: Rosaria is so nice. Let’s start with background.

Rosaria: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Jim: Um, some people have not heard your story. I’m sure the team here at Focus will link to that.

Rosaria: Yeah.

Jim: Um, so people can hear that program we taped long ago. It was probably seven years ago or so.

Rosaria: Mm-hmm. Or longer.

Jim: And it was powerful, powerful story. Um, so let’s start there. When you were a Professor at Syracuse-

Rosaria: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … what was your world like? What were you doing?

Rosaria: Yeah.

Jim: What was going on?

Rosaria: Yeah. I was a, a Professor of English and Women’s Studies at Syracuse University, uh, tenured. And I was one of the first crop of tenured radicals. And while I was there, I was a true believer, just not in the things of the Lord. I truly believed that I was a lesbian, and I truly believed that, uh, especially the religious right or pretty much anybody that didn’t understand the importance of pluralism and leaving consenting adults alone was, uh, you know, a fascist. Who was just a dangerous figure to me. And so, after my tenure book was secure, and I was a shoo-in, I started working on a book on the religious right. Basically just trying to figure out what people like you wouldn’t affirm the person that I used to be. And in the process, I met a neighbor and a pastor, Ken Smith, and his dear wife Floy.

And, um, they probably had me over to their house for 500 meals. I don’t know, I’m not a math major. Maybe it wasn’t.

Jim: (laughs).

Rosaria: But, um-

Jim: But a lot.

Rosaria: A lot. You know, weekly. Weekly.

Jim: But you, you know, I remember from our previous discussion, you described it as you received all kinds of mail. The love mail from the LGBT-

Rosaria: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Jim: … Community and then the hate mail from the Christians.

Rosaria: Right.

Jim: And frankly, some of that hate mail was very vicious.

Rosaria: You know, I’m gonna tell you, the hate mail from, uh, Christians wasn’t quite as vicious as the hate mail from just non-religious conservatives.

Jim: Okay.

Rosaria: And so, um, I, yeah. But anyway, yeah. So-

Jim: And in that context, that’s where you received a note-

Rosaria: Right.

Jim: … from Ken-

Rosaria: Ken. Yeah.

Jim: … and his wife saying what?

Rosaria: Well, basically the, it just said, “Look, we don’t agree with you, but we would love to have a conversation with you.” And at that point, I really thought, “This is terrific. Because I’m trying to write a book, and the only way I’m gonna be able to do it is to actually understand from your point of view, why you don’t agree with me.”

Jim: So you saw this as a research opportunity? (laughs).

Rosaria: Yeah. I saw them as my unpaid research assistants.

Jim: (laughs). Research professor.

Rosaria: I thought that would be work just great, you know?

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: Um, and the fact that they were in my neighborhood and I could get there pretty easily. And, um, when I walked through the door of the house, they greeted me warmly. They gave me a hug, and they said, “If you want to understand this question, you’re gonna have to be reading this thing, this Bible.” Ken said, “And, and I want you to understand that, this is a Holy Book, and I just want you to know, here is what your problem is.” And I thought, “Well, this is interesting.” (laughs).

Jim: Wow. Day one?

Rosaria: Day one. I mean, because we, I mean-

Jim: So he didn’t hold back?

Rosaria: … not, not obnoxiously.

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Rosaria: I mean, I should tell you, he knew who I was. I mean, I had co-authored the university’s domestic partnership policy, which was a forerunner to gay marriage in New York. We were not unknown. I mean, we hadn’t ever sat down and, you know-

Jim: Been together.

Rosaria: … been together, but we knew each other.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: And we, it’s a small, fairly small community at that point. And I, you know, testified before the legislature for gay rights. He knew who I was. And he just said, and he wasn’t, he wasn’t edgy. It’s not like he said, “Oh, you’re an idiot,” or anything like that. He said, “I just want you to know, here’s what’s wrong.”

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: “We believe as Christians that what is true determines what is ethical and what is valuable.”

Jim: Hmm.

Rosaria: “You believe what is ethical according to your standards, determines what is true. And that’s our biggest difference.”

Jim: Yeah. One’s rooted in-

Rosaria: And I thought, “This is amazing. This is actually someone that is thinking through, in some ways, the same things I am.” So, ’cause it wasn’t lost on me that situational ethics could lead you into a implosion. So all to say, immediately I realized that Ken and Floy and I were going to get along. And the other thing he said to me, which was very powerful, he said, “You know, Rosaria, I can accept you as a lesbian, but I do not approve.” And what I appreciated about that was that it was honest. I would not have expected any evangelical to affirm or to approve of me. Then, I wouldn’t have needed to be at the table with you. I wanted to figure out why you didn’t affirm. But he also said something very loving, “I accept you. I see you.”

Jim: Hmm.

Rosaria: I, I’m not, I’m non, in other words, although I didn’t have words to describe it, he treated me like an image bearer of a Holy God. Not because I was lesbian.

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: Not because I was speaking truth to power or whatever that he means, just because, God made me. And so, that-

Jim: Right. Because you’re human.

Rosaria: Yeah. And so, that began a long relationship. In that relationship, Ken gave me, uh, a lecture. (laughs). It really was a lecture. Actually he wanted to give it to my students and I was like, “No way, buddy. (laughing). You’re not getting at my students.”

Jim: You’re good, but you’re not that good.

Rosaria: Exactly. So he gave it to me. I, I, in fact, I, it’s in Five Lies. The whole lecture was something he allowed me to, you know, re-

Jim: Oh, wow.

Rosaria: … repu- repurpose for us. Um, and in it, he, it’s really a hermeneutic of-

Jim: But before we go there-

Rosaria: Okay, yeah, yeah.

Jim: … we wanna go there.

Rosaria: Yeah.

Jim: But before we go there, um, the end result there, is that you-

Rosaria: Okay.

Jim: … that Ken-

Rosaria: Okay. Yeah. The end result is that I read the Bible seven times through in two years. And if you do that, you give the Holy Spirit a lot of attention.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: I mean, and you have a lot of room in your life. And, and at the end of, uh, this journey, I realized that this book was different from any other book I had ever read. It was powerful. It was reading me, I was not reading it. And so I did the only responsible thing. I went to Ken and Floy Smith and I said, “That’s it. We’re done. I’m gonna throw the Bible in the garbage and-

Jim: Oh, so now you’re getting intimidated.

Rosaria: … I don’t need, I don’t need you guys as friends anymore.”

Jim: Okay. So that was the response.

Rosaria: And, that was my re- that was my response. I’m like, “No, this is dangerous.” And also-

Jim: ‘Cause you were feeling it.

Rosaria: I was feeling it and my lesbian partner was feeling it, and my lesbian community was feeling it. And I’m like, “Okay, this is not what I bargained for. I bargained for a research project where I wrote a book explaining why you guys are stupid. I was not planning on having this book turn overhaul my life.” And so, their friendship really gave me the courage to keep reading this time. Not because I was writing a book, but just because I needed to read for myself. And at a certain point, I just came to realize that the resurrection was true. It was true, whether I believed it or not.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: Uh, and so, we have to realize, and this is where Christians, you know, one of the things that was powerful about, of course, Ken Smith meeting with me is, he didn’t have a program. You know, he didn’t have like, “Hey, here are my three favorite slogans, and they go with t-shirts.” No. He was a Christian who prayed for me and said, “Lord, what’s the bridge to this woman?”

Jim: Hmm.

Rosaria: And so, we have to be careful that we’re just not kinda pulling out like, “Well, this worked with me, so this is gonna work with someone else.” Because, Christians need to know what time it is. And we need to know, especially our young people, are heavily influenced, I’m even going to say, seduced by the idol of our day, which is LGBTQ+ affirmation. Should the Lord tarry, our day will be remembered in the infamy of Molech.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Rosaria: And to make it worse, the broad evangelical church is buying gay Christianity in its softer version. And it is, um, creating enough cognitive dissonance for people like the person I used to be. That we just don’t have any fight left in us. We are effectively tying the hands behind the back of our young people who are genuinely feeling a tension of the sin struggle.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Rosaria: I mean, our children who are raised in Christ are not heathens, they’re not pagan. They are, they are people with a conscience, but they don’t have any fight left because the church is not speaking with clarity, with conviction. Instead, it, it creates this kind of nonsense world, where Jesus comes to liberate captives, but just not you, if you’re issue is sexual sin.

Jim: Hmm.

Rosaria: It is heresy.

Jim: Yeah. In fact, when you look at it, the scripture in the New Testament is replete with examples of sexual sin.

Rosaria: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jim: I mean, we tend to look away from that-

Rosaria: Right. Right.

Jim: … but Paul wrote extensively about it.

Rosaria: Right. But we don’t call it sexual sin, we don’t put it in that category. We call it, personhood.

Jim: (laughs).

Rosaria: We say things like, “Well, I’m not sinning, I’m just gay.”

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: And then you have whole segments of the evangelical church, trying to camp out there and be, ‘faithful and compassionate.’ Well, it’s not faithful and it’s not compassionate if you don’t help people know that God saves sinners just like me, and He changes our lives. He liberates the captives. That’s the gospel.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: And so, I, I, the book started for me with my repentance for the ways that I believed all these lies. See, Ken and Floy Smith loved me. They loved me enough-

Jim: And you felt it.

Rosaria: Uh, but they loved me enough to tell the truth.

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: Okay. They didn’t say, “Oh, we need a gay bowling, uh, league in our church so you can feel comfortable.” They understood that, “You wanna minister to the LGBTQ+ movement, good, there won’t be an LGBTQ+ movement. Because they’ll be Christians.”

Jim: Hmm.

Rosaria: So they understood that. They loved me enough to tell the truth and instead I see Christians today, pretending that our enemies are our friends, or just pretending we don’t have any enemies.

Jim: Now let me ask you-

Rosaria: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I mean, that leans into this idea that you were willing to hear that truth. Something in you.

Rosaria: Yes. Yes. I was.

Jim: ‘Cause you can, you can meet with 100 people from the LGBTQ community-

Rosaria: I was.

Jim: … and maybe one is gonna respond the way you did.

Rosaria: Yeah. Well, but I-

Jim: So, yeah.

Rosaria: … I would say this, that God Has put eternity in the hearts of all men.

Jim: So how do we find that?

Rosaria: And so, you might wanna go… You know? Yeah. And so, you need to know that it is only the truth that will set people free.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Rosaria: So here’s what I would say. I would say this, and this is not a Bible verse, so don’t ask me for a Bible verse. This is just kind of how Rosaria ticks.

Jim: Okay.

Rosaria: Um, if I have a strong relationship with you, I can have strong words. But if I don’t have a strong relationship with you, it’s going to be hard to have strong words.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: But a strong relationship is not based on garbage. It’s not based on affirming what is not true. It’s based on, showing genuine mercy. How can you help your neighbors? Who needs to be picked up from the bus stop? Who needs to have their garden weeded? Who needs a front screen door fixed? You know, those are basic things that don’t involve you lying to people.

Jim: Hmm.

Rosaria: But a lot of this stuff bled into how I thought about things. And so, the book-

Jim: Let’s hit the Five Lies.

Rosaria: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Jim: I mean, that your book title is Five Lies of Our Anti-Christian Age.

Rosaria: Yeah. Yeah.

Jim: So, I mean, everybody should be waking up going, “Wow, okay. What, what are those?”

Rosaria: Y- yeah. And these are, and lies are not things that you can marshal to the service of Christ. Let’s be clear. I’m not saying five differences, five nuances, I’m saying five lies.

Jim: (laughs).

Rosaria: Okay. That means they’re of the devil.

Jim: Hmm.

Rosaria: They’re of Satan.

Jim: That’s Galatians 5:18.

Rosaria: Thank you. Yes.

Jim: That’s His proof.

Rosaria: That, we do have a Bible verse for it. (laughs).

Jim: That’s His proof.

Rosaria: That’s right. So the first is that, homosexuality is normal for some people. And that sexual orientation is a category of personhood instead of what it actually is, which is a 19th century category invention.

Jim: Hmm.

Rosaria: Okay. You are not, there’s no such thing as a gay person. Uh, you’re a person. (laughs). And in fact, specifically Genesis 1:27-28 says that you are made in the image of God as a man or as a woman for the purpose of procreation, for Godly marriage.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: You are made for Godly marriage. No matter how you feel, you are not a gay person. You are a man, or you are a woman whose sin pattern makes all of that feel impossible. I completely get that. But to normalize how you feel is to spit in the face of God.

Jim: Hmm.

Rosaria: So the normalization of homosexuality.

Jim: And let’s, let’s stop there for a second.

Rosaria: Okay.

Jim: Because I think, as I’ve interacted with, you know, a handful of people in the LGBTQ community, that’s one of the things that they tend to stereotype Christians with, is that, we perceive ourselves to be perfect.

Rosaria: Yeah. I just-

Jim: A- as opposed to, we’re broken people too.

Rosaria: Yeah. Yeah.

Jim: And this idea that sexual sin only flows to that alphabet.

Rosaria: Right. Right. Right.

Jim: It is not right. I mean, heterosexuals have problems. Like if you look at a woman in lust in your heart-

Rosaria: Right.

Jim: … you’ve committed adultery.

Rosaria: But it’s not the same problem. And this is where we need to say it.

Jim: Okay. Good.

Rosaria: Okay. And I, and you know, yes, I need to deal with my own sin, and that’s what a lot of this book is telling you about this. But the first ingredient of repentance is recognizing sin is sin. So if I don’t recognize it as sin, if I say, “No, this is my sexual orientation, I’m a victim, I’m a whatever,” out the box, I can’t repent of sin. And without repentance, repentance is the first word of the gospel out of the mouth of Jesus. Uh, I think it’s Mark 1:15, 1:15, repent and believe. So repentance is a gift from God. No question. It is not something you can just kind of… So you pray for repentance, you pray, Lord… This is a wonderful prayer for anyone listening to this who’s struggling with your sexual sin. “Lord, help me to see it as sin.”

Jim: Hmm.

Rosaria: “Because I don’t. I see it as my daily reality. Help me to see it as sin.” So that’s number one. Number two is this belief that, pagan spirituality is good and it’s just as good as biblical spirituality.

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: Because these are just nice people doing nice things. And the problem with that is that, it tends to rely on a notion of common grace. Like, “Look at that? How can you say homosexuality is sinful when my lesbian neighbors are the nicest people on the block?” Well, in God’s sovereignty, He Has often put good skills and, and a not a saving grace, but a, a grace in the lives of unbelievers. And that’s to bless you and bless the church.

Jim: Hmm.

Rosaria: And the fact that they still are going to hell with it should make you wanna share the gospel.

Jim: Now, you refer to that as a, a spiritual person-

Rosaria: Yes.

Jim: … versus a Christian.

Rosaria: Versus a Christian. Yeah.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: And so-

Jim: I don’t think many people talk in those terms though.

Rosaria: Well-

Jim: So that’s good to understand what you mean.

Rosaria: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it, it helps you understand that, we’re not talking about a secular world anymore. We’re not talking about the evils of atheism and secularism. We’re talking about the evils of competing religions. And that’s why there’s so much fervor attached to this. If we were all just being objective outsiders saying, “Well, you know?” It would be totally different.

Jim: Hmm.

Rosaria: Um, but Peter Jones from TruthXchange has been writing about this for years. And it really talks about this Romans 1, the rea- uh, just the power of what Romans 1 is saying, specifically like 18-24. Do you mind if I read that passage?

Jim: Yeah, go. Yeah, it’s good.

Rosaria: Um, ’cause I think it’s just helpful to think this through. Um, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppressed the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them because God Has shown it to them for His invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world. In the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For, although they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their thinking and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged,” that’s the word I want you to look at. Exchange.

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: “Exchange the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal men and birds and animals and creeping things. And therefore, God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity.” If you wanna know the scariest line in the Bible for me, that’s it right there.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Rosaria: ‘Cause I was there. “To the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves because they exchanged, that’s second exchange, the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator who is blessed forever. Amen. And for this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Rosaria: Second scariest line in the Bible for me. Gave them up. To be given up by God. Oh.

Jim: Handed them over.

Rosaria: Handed them over. I was there. “For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature. And the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another. Men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not fi- see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind-

Jim: Hmm.

Rosaria: … to do what they ought not to do. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness.” And it goes on. You see three exchanges and what we need to know about those exchanges. The first was the exchange of the worship of God for the worship of self. Okay. Check.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Rosaria: That’s exactly what homosexuality is, and that’s what exactly what pagan spirituality is, right? You’re gonna find God right inside you. The second is the exchange of the truth of who God is, for the lies of a manmade, now pagan religion. And then the third is the exchange of what is natural, which is heterosexual, for what is unnatural, which is homosexual. Now, part of why this becomes a really important passage is that, you see in pagan spirituality, the exchange of all of these three lies. But you also see a particular way that gay Christianity uses the exact passage that I read. Now, gay Christianity is a movement that has come up in the church. It is a church grown movement. Okay? It, it’s not like, you know-

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: … it fell from the sky. The aliens didn’t create it. Um-

Jim: Not outside in.

Rosaria: Not outside. No. Because all heresy comes from the church. You wanna know where heresy comes from?

Jim: Hmm.

Rosaria: Us, we do it. Um, side A is the position that affirms gay marriage and gay sex, side B affirms gay identity and gay feelings as good and noble and right. But denies that acting on them is appropriate. Now, one of the, uh, kind of lead figures in the side A movement is Matthew Vines. And you know what he says about that passage?

Jim: Mm-mm.

Rosaria: He says it has nothing to do with homosexuality.

Jim: Yeah. The whole thing.

Rosaria: The whole thing. You’re like-

Jim: Yeah. Denying it. Yeah.

Rosaria: … “You, you need a reading comprehension class.”

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: I mean, I don’t know what else to say. I’m a, I’m a, I’m an English professor.

Jim: You, you have PhD in English. (laughs).

Rosaria: Yeah. You need a… But side B does something also equally interesting with it. Uh, Preston Sprinkle, who is an advocate and probably the lead figure right now in side B gay Christianity. He says that Christians, straight Christians, should never use Romans 1, wave these texts around, the way he puts it, to call gay Christians to repentance.

Jim: Now what, you know, obviously that’s wrong. Yeah. What-

Rosaria: Now, what is that mean?

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: It’s obviously wrong. But one of the things that’s wrong about it, so as you, we can say like, well, that’s false teaching, but no, I would say that’s heresy. And the reason it’s heresy, and it fits right into this second lie, is because, the word of God is an objective truth. Hebrews 4 says, it’s a, it’s a double-edged sword. It cuts between the soul and the spirit. It doesn’t change because of the posture of the subject position of the person wielding it.

Jim: Hmm.

Rosaria: And people who say that are heretics. And so, that second lie encompasses a number of pagan movements, including the pagan movements that some of us, some people we’ll call Christian, like gay Christianity.

John: Rosaria Butterfield on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And that was one of our best broadcasts of the year. So many responses. And my goodness, Jim, she does not hold back when she shares the truth of God’s Word.

Jim: No, she doesn’t. And isn’t it fascinating to see how the Holy Spirit works in the lives of other people? Each one of us is born into sin. Uh, none of us are born perfectly, and we are in desperate need of God’s Grace. That’s the whole story. The Bible says, “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And that’s why Jesus came to lay down his life for us to take the punishment of sin upon Himself so we could have eternal life. If we turn from sin and believe in Him.” And I’m amazed at the many things that Rosaria shared about being an educator and researcher, hungry for the truth. Isn’t it evidence that a heart hungry for the truth finds the Lord?

John: Hmm.

Jim: And she is exhibit A. One thing that really stood out to me is that she read through the Bible seven times in two years. How many of us as Christians have done that? Uh, many believers haven’t read through the whole Bible even once, but God’s Word spoke to her powerfully, and it really did change her life. And if you haven’t made that decision for Christ, I, I would suggest you take up that challenge. Read the word of God, read it before you deny it, and just ask the Lord, “If you’re there, prove yourself to me, Lord.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: He will do it. Also, the pastor and his wife were such a loving example of Christ leading to her spiritual transformation. And then, of course, she left the lesbian lifestyle. It’s exciting to see how God is using her to help others now.

John: Yeah. And we’re gonna hear more from Rosaria tomorrow, as we cover a couple more lies of the culture. For now get her book, Five Lies of Our Anti-Christian Age. Uh, it is an in-depth account of her journey and, uh, how she wants to cut through the cultural chaos.

Jim: Yeah, John. And I wanna encourage our friends here in the holiday season, Christmas, to give thanks to God for His blessings this year, and to consider giving a generous gift to Focus on the Family. Uh, let me remind you that Focus is here to be a lifeline, uh, for your family and many, many, literally, millions of other families. And if you’re not already a member of our friends at Focus on the Family, please consider joining us to support the ongoing work of the ministry on a monthly basis. And when you do, you’re helping support our counseling efforts, strengthening marriages, helping parents, saving babies from abortion. And right now because of some generous friends of the ministry, uh, when you donate, your gift will be doubled. So $50 becomes $100. And no amount is too small to make a difference when literally thousands of people join in and support the ministry. So be one of those donors.

John: Yeah. Give the gift of hope to families right now and, uh, monthly if you can, uh, or a one-time donation. And we’ll send you Rosaria’s book as our way of saying thanks for being a part of the team and, uh, helping families thrive in Christ. Our number is 800-232-6459. 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Or you can donate and request Rosaria’s book at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we continue the conversation with Rosaria Butterfield and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Day Two

Dr. Rosaria Champagne Butterfield: Real Christian hospitality, is having enough time together, so that you can with respect and in privacy, ask and answer hard questions. And where you can show yourself to be a lover of His soul.

John Fuller: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rosaria Butterfield, with a wonderful reminder of how we as Christians can and should love others with whom we come in contact. Welcome to Focus on the Family, with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, and we’re returning for a second day with one of our Best of 2024 broadcasts, a really incredible conversation that Jim had with Rosaria, in North Carolina. When we first aired this, one listener said, “This was amazing from start to finish. We can all learn something from this, and step up higher in our lives and our outreach.”

Jim Daly: Rosaria is always so encouraging and she unpacks truths from Scripture in a unique way, with such clarity. And I could talk to her for hours. Last time on Focus, she shared her testimony of coming to Christ through the love and kindness of a pastor and his wife. And if you didn’t hear it, be sure to listen. Get that from the app, or go to the website. We also looked at the first two lies of the culture which she wrote about in her book. The first lie is that homosexuality is normal. And we know that God has created us male and female, and His design is for marriage between a man and a woman. And Rosaria battles that now in the culture. Of course she’s coming out of lesbianism, and so she lived it. She knows both arguments obviously, and now fights fiercely for the souls and the perspective of folks that are in that situation. She is trying to get them to see the light, so to speak. The second lie is being a spiritual person, is kinder than being a biblical Christian. And she fights that tooth and nail. Today we’ll get into feminism and transgenderism, two huge issues that have shaped much of our culture lately. So stay tuned for this helpful discussion.

John: Rosaria Butterfield is a former tenured professor at Syracuse University. And she’s written a terrific book called, Five Lies of Our Anti-Christian Age. And she’ll share some of the content in her conversation with Jim, including lie number three, as we jump back in on today’s episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

Jim: Okay, number three-

Rosaria: Three.

Jim: … feminism is good for the world and the church.

Rosaria: That is a lie. Tha … Yeah. And again, and I know-

Jim: Okay, everybody went, “What?”

Rosaria: I know, I know. And you know, it- it took me … I was raised by a feminist, right? I … My dissertation was on Mary Shelley, who’s the founder of Western Feminism. And I- I mean I … This was probably the hardest chapter to write.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: But I think the- the issue, the reason that this has become such a sticking point for the church, is because, um, of a fear again, of an Old Testament of the Creation ordinance, of what you see in the Creation ordinance, which is that men are made to be the providers and the leaders. And women are made to be the nurturers and the supporters, and that is how our-

Jim: The help mate.

Rosaria: That’s how we’re built. And now we can add all kinds of like garbage to our lives, so that we don’t feel that, we don’t like it, we resist it. But that’s how we’re built. And you know, that’s called Biblical patriarchy. But what Biblical patriarchy says, and I would just put it to our listeners like this. If you don’t like the idea of Godly men, protecting and leading, how do you feel about Drag Queen Story Hour?

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: I mean, wha- what do you think about what’s currently … The men who are currently leading? You see what I’m saying?

Jim: I do.

Rosaria: It’s … Nature has a way of … So, so no, you don’t need feminism. What you do need, and you know, everyone needs this. What you need, if you’re especially single. Like what about single women Rosaria? What about women who don’t have a wonderful husband like you do? This is what you need. You need to be a member of a God-fearing Bible believing church, because then you have pastors and elders, who are covering you and who are protecting you.

Jim: Well, and don’t you think … Uh, because I’ve heard this argument, women who have suffered through abuse by their husbands, or from men, tend to be the framework of this ideology. And some of it’s born out of compassion that-

Rosaria: Yeah.

Jim: … these women have suffered-

Rosaria: Yeah, yeah.

Jim: … and men had been brutal. And Christian men have misused-

Rosaria: Oh, yeah.

Jim: … their leadership role.

Rosaria: A- absolutely. This-

Jim: And so that’s something we have to talk about.

Rosaria: Right. But that doesn’t mean we change the rules.

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: So yes, we definitely wanna hold both men and women to the high calling that our created order gives to us. But we won’t combat the problem of sin by changing God’s rules.

Jim: Yeah. In the book you mentioned your church reading aloud Psalm 1:13, which would rankle you. So what-

Rosaria: Oh no, not just reading it aloud, singing it.

Jim: They would sing it?

Rosaria: Yeah, no. We would … We would-

Jim: And so you’d go, “Mm-hmm. I don’t know about that.”

Rosaria: We would sing … No, it was even worse. Let me see if I … Yeah, no. It was way worse than being rankled. See, I am a trained singer. I can’t be in the context of music.

Jim: I am not.

Rosaria: Okay. I can’t be in the context of music and not sing. So it wasn’t just that those other people were singing it, I was singing it. And then I’m thinking, “What did I just … I just sung condemnation onto my …” Seriously. Uh, this is how desperate it felt to me. I have just sung condemnation onto myself. And somehow, I’m in tune enough with the Holy Spirit to feel that.

Jim: Yeah. Yeah.

Rosaria: I mean, well I have piercings in my ears, a boy wife-beater T-shirt on. And I just left the bed of my lesbian lover. (laughs)

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: You know what I mean? Like … And I’m not old enough to be having like memory issues, right?

Jim: Right, right. Right, but what is 1:13? What grabs you-

Rosaria: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jim: … that way?

Rosaria: You want me to read it or sing it?

Jim: Whatever you prefer.

Rosaria: Okay. “From the dust, He lifts the poor, makes the needy grieve no more. Those He raised up from the pit, with His people, princes sit. With His people, princes sit.” I loved that, but I just didn’t know if it was true. Like, I loved the thought, because I am a social justice activist.

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: I- I’m trying of my own accord, to make the world a better place, but I’m not succeeding. But here’s where of course you’re singing the loudest, ’cause it’s the crescendo that just did me in. “He, the barren woman takes, and a joyful mother makes. In her home, she finds reward.” What?

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: Hallelujah. Praise the Lord. And I immediately shut the psalter, and I went to the pastor’s wife. And some of the other women in the church, that I knew from, you know … One was married to a colleague of mine. And I just kind of said, “What is going on here?”

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: “I- I’m supposed to find reward in my home?” And they were … They were wonderful. I mean, to each woman they said, “Well, you know, Scripture references Scripture, right? You can’t just pull this. And this is connected to this thing called the Creation ordinance, Rosaria.” What in the world is that? Well it’s … It goes all the way back to Genesis. But I thought you guys were Christians? Well yeah, but you don’t have the Gospel without the law.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Rosaria: I- I- I mean, it was my first lesson in Hermeneutics. And so … And it was a good lesson, because I found myself saying two things. One is, I don’t believe this at all.

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: But I understand why you do. Wow, can you imagine a world where we could do that?

Jim: Hm. Very different.

Rosaria: Very different than the world we have.

Jim: Right, number four, transgenderism is normal.

Rosaria: Transgenderism is normal for some people. And this is interesting, because this-

Jim: How could you really believe that?

Rosaria: It’s so crazy. And you know what?

Jim: I mean, think … Just think on the surface of that.

Rosaria: It is so crazy.

Jim: Now, isn’t there quite a conflict? At least some of the people I talk to within … You look at Bill Maher, the comedian in HBO. I think he has, in a very creative way, recognized this conflict between the Ts and the L-

Rosaria: Yeah, and- and-

Jim: … and the Gs.

Rosaria: And there are many, quote, unquote, “gay conservatives.” I don’t like that expression gay.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: I don’t think you can be conservative and gay.

Jim: But it’s … The Ts are kind of undoing it.

Rosaria: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But-

Jim: Describe that, since you know it.

Rosaria: … here’s how- here’s how that came about. Where would you get transgenderism, like just the whole … Just ethically speaking, where would you get this? Well, well, you get this from a feminist watch word, like what is at the center of feminism, is a position that sex, biological sex, and cultural gender are different.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Rosaria: Now as a Christian, I’m here to tell you, there’s no difference. And there’s no difference, because God is not some crazy engineer that builds a bridge, that falls into a lake. Okay. He makes the pattern of male and female, for the purpose of heterosexuality in Biblical marriage. The pattern and the purpose go together. Even when some of us have not fulfilled that purpose. I have four children by adoption. I’ve got married late in life, was never been able to be pregnant. But- but, you see what I am saying?

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: So I am not saying that we are all perfect examples of that-

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: But that is the pattern for the purpose. And what feminism wanted to say is, “No, no, no. You do have this biological sex, but don’t worry, it’s not gonna hold you back.”

Jim: Right, we’re gonna-

Rosaria: Because-

Jim: … empower you.

Rosaria: … it’s not the really important thing.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: What’s really important is, you know, that cultural gender thing. And then transgenderism took it and said, “This is fantastic. We’ll just get rid of biological sex all together, all we want is cultural gender.”

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: And so feminism is what created the roots of transgenderism. And transgenderism is the sin of envy.

Jim: It … Yes.

Rosaria: It is the-

Jim: Wow.

Rosaria: … coveting of not just your neighbor’s wife, but your neighbor’s sexual anatomy. And this is where you really have to just … We need to hover over this for a minute, because there are a lot of Christians who falsely believe that sin is only sin if you act on it. That sin is not sin, if you don’t act on it. And sin is not sin if you didn’t choose it. And yet, we have two places in the Bible that just speak powerfully against that, that become relevant in our discussion about transgenderism.

Jim: What are they?

Rosaria: Well, the first is, uh, Exodus 20:17, “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.” It doesn’t say, “Thou shalt not take thy neighbor’s wife.” No, don’t take your neighbor’s wife. But the commandment, the prohibition, is against coveting, envy. And then the second is in, uh, Romans 7, verses 17 to about 24. In that passage, Paul is … The apostle Paul is writing about indwelling sin, that’s the sin that comes unbidden from the heart. And he says, “Why do I do what I don’t wanna do? It is not I, it is sin in me.” So these people, they say, “Oh I- I’m gay. This is who I am. I know because I feel it.” Well Paul is saying, “It’s not you, it’s sin in you.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Rosaria: And it’s sin. He doesn’t say, “It’s not I, it’s, you know, trauma in me.” Or, “It’s not I, it’s …” You know. And- and let me say, I shouldn’t say it like that, because people … There are many, many examples of sexual perversion that are kind of launched, instigated, by child sexual trauma.

Jim: Correct.

Rosaria: And if that is the case, if you have been traumatized, if your sexual acting out is coming from trauma, you need to deal with that trauma. And you deal with that in counseling and therapy. And I’m completely in support of you doing that. But you can be a sinner and a victim at the same time. And that’s what we’re dealing with here. You know, Paul is not talking about trauma, Paul is talking about indwelling sin. Indwelling sin is, um, if sin is like a robber, and your one way, your one shtick, the one way that you deal with sin, is to lock the doors.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Rosaria: That’s not gonna help you if the robber’s in your closet in the master bedroom.

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: Okay, so, we have to figure out what to do with the sin that is part of our fallen Adam, our original sin, that doesn’t go away entirely upon regeneration by the Holy Spirit. We fight that sin until-

Jim: Well, and keeping that metaphor, it’s much like learning to close and lock that door of the closet.

Rosaria: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, that’s what Jesus has come to do, and deal with it-

Rosaria: Well actually … Actually, no. We don’t close and lock the door, we open the door-

Jim: Clean it out.

Rosaria: We open the door, and we shoot it dead.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: See, that’s what we need to do with our sin.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: We need to kill it dead. And then tomorrow morning, we probably have to get up and do the same thing. But transgenderism has two sides to it. One is something that people would consider, uh, you know, at least the DSM-IV, for as much as we wanna go there-

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: Would call a medical diagnosis if dysphoria-

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: Gender dysphoria. The medical analog to that is anorexia. Now that’s an important analog, because nobody thinks that if you have a daughter who is anorexic, that you should affirm her in her delusion, that she’s fat.

Jim: Hm.

Rosaria: So even in a situation where you believe you’re dealing with a dysphoric person, lying doesn’t help. But predominantly the issue that we’re facing today, is an activist motivated envy, that has just unleashed itself in a satanic form on the world. And that the foolish brought Evangelical church has failed to say, “Not on my watch.”

Jim: I think it’s important for us to talk about that. What can the church respond with?

Rosaria: Right. Well first of all-

Jim: In a culture that is … I mean, if you step up and say something, you might even get arrested at the school board meeting.

Rosaria: Yeah. Well, and you know … (laughs)

Jim: Like the dad-

Rosaria: I haven’t. I haven’t been arrested yet. I’ve said all kinds of things at a school board. But you know what? You have to be willing to.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: You have to be willing to be arrested. You have to be willing to lose your job. You have to be willing to die for Christ. It’s very simple. This is gonna clear out the fake Christians from this conversation. You have got to be willing, this is real. Okay? We are-

Jim: So confront it, is what you’re saying?

Rosaria: You got … You have to-

Jim: Like Ken, your pastor friend.

Rosaria: You ha- you go to it. You see that problem, instead of retreating from it, you move into it. So I speak at school boards. I haven’t been arrested yet. I, uh … Yeah, I must tell you that speaking at a Durham County school board is a little bit like doing rounds at the psych ward during a full moon. But you know, I … Somebody’s got to do it, right? But I think this is very, very important, because one of the people you’re gonna meet at these school board meetings, are parents who are facilitating the problem.

Jim: Because their children are experiencing it?

Rosaria: Well, couple of reasons. I mean, you- you know, Brandon Showalter from Christian Post, has done a fantastic, you know, study of this in his Generation Indoctrination podcast. But some of it is a kind of Munchausen by proxy syndrome.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Rosaria: And some of it is parents who are being manipulated by therapists and by Side B gay Christianity, by Andy Stanley, by the Unchanged Conference, by these kinds of movements that say, “Well look, would you rather have a dead daughter or a living son?”

Jim: Well, and that connection, I wanna make sure we capture what you said a moment ago, when it comes to the analog of anorexia, that when-

Rosaria: Yeah.

Jim: … you look at gender dysphoria, it’s a mental illness.

Rosaria: Yeah, it’s a mental illness. It is a mental illness.

Jim: And were no longer recognizing it.

Rosaria: Right.

Jim: A- and think about it for a moment.

Rosaria: Right.

Jim: Step back and think of a man who wants to dress and act like a woman.

Rosaria: Right.

Jim: That is not natural.

Rosaria: No. And we are barbarians if we pretend that a mental illness doesn’t need to be treated. And envy is a serious sin. So I understand there could be a medical, there can be … Certainly there’s a mental health component.

Jim: But there’s an issue.

Rosaria: But-

Jim: Or multiple issues.

Rosaria: Envy is rottenness to the bones. And what we’re seeing, especially right now with the way parents are having to deal with the situation is, a- a- a kind of twisting of the Scriptures, about what it means to obey God, and not man. You see, if we, uh, you know, I think it’s Proverbs 29 that talks about the fear of man is a snare. And a snare is an instrument of execution, from which you can’t extract yourself.

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: And when I go to school board meetings, I see a lot of parents who are snared by the fear of their children. And what’s really interesting right now, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, the rite of passage for an adult child, is to go to mom and dad, and say, “Mom and dad, I’m gay.” That coming out was your rite of passage. Today the rite of passage is cutting them off.

Jim: Hm.

Rosaria: And so it is really important that the church know how rough this is for the parents who have children who are casualties, to what is the idol of our day. And I’m using the word idol, like a good, reformed Presbyterian here. Here’s what you do with your idols. You don’t go sing Kumbaya next to Moloch, while babies are dropping in.

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: And- and-

Jim: And Moloch is?

Rosaria: And Moloch is, uh, you know the idol of child sacrifice during the Old Testament.

Jim: Yeah, they used to burn children at the feet of Moloch-

Rosaria: Absolutely, you do not-

Jim: For crops, for yield, for prosperity.

Rosaria: You do not do that. You destroy-

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: … the idol.

Jim: Hm.

Rosaria: And you proclaim the word of God. And so what I’m seeing is a lot of Christians, especially in Broad evangelism, needing to … Trying to make peace with the world, so that they don’t lose a job.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: Well that’s appalling.

Jim: You know Rosaria, let’s end where we started.

Rosaria: Okay.

Jim: And that was how we deal with people that don’t think the way we do.

Rosaria: Yeah.

Jim: And your first encounter, that was with Pastor Ken-

Rosaria: Yeah, absolutely.

Jim: And his wife, Floy.

Rosaria: Absolutely.

Jim: But it’s an art. I- I like to say it that way-

Rosaria: Yeah.

Jim: Because it’s learnable.

Rosaria: Yeah, I … Yeah.

Jim: And you need to engage people where they’re at, and then bring them along. One of the things you said about Pastor Ken, is that he didn’t hit you with salvation right at the get-go. You need to be saved.

Rosaria: Right.

Jim: He started to talk to you and feed a hunger in you.

Rosaria: Right. Talk to me about what it means to be an image bearer of a Holy God.

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: Like, we had to start way before Salvation.

Jim: So he’s laying the bread crumbs-

Rosaria: Yeah, yeah.

Jim: … articulately with you.

Rosaria: Right, right.

Jim: And- And I, I just think that’s … Because so often we can respond out of our flesh as Christians.

Rosaria: Yeah, yeah.

Jim: To fight with the fruit of the other guy, the enemy of our soul.

Rosaria: Yeah, yeah.

Jim: You know, with harshness and, you know, being direct does not have to be harsh.

Rosaria: No, but being direct does require presence. And this is where … This is where real hospitality comes in. Okay? Real Christian hospitality, is where you actually know your neighbor. Not because of what he said on Twitter last night, but because what his lawn looks like today, and you know he needs some help. Real Christian hospitality, is having enough time together, so that you can, with respect and in privacy. Ask and answer hard questions.

Jim: Hm.

Rosaria: And where you can show yourself to be a lover of His soul.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: A lover of her soul. We live in a world that so values the flesh. Everything’s about the flesh. I noticed this when I had the privilege of seeing my mother come to Christ, literally on her deathbed. And I noticed, that as the flesh becomes weaker, the soul becomes … Well, it’s kind of gets like- like sloughed off. Like you kind of see it.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: But we live in a world that doesn’t wanna talk about the soul, at all. And so- so … And this is … I’m not talking about church programs. Like I- I- I don’t care about church programs. I- I … In fact, I think sometimes church programs become a way that Christians just try to avoid the awkwardness of hospitality.

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: Hospitality is awkward. You’re gonna have people in your home, and they’re probably going to violate some of the rules of your home. They’re gonna make-

Jim: Or break something.

Rosaria: They might … They’re going to break something, they’re gonna say a bad word, um, it’s gonna be … You know what? Embrace the awkwardness.

Jim: Right. I just broke something in someone’s home last night.

Rosaria: You know.

Jim: (laughs) That’s a true story.

Rosaria: And- and then you’re going, you know at the end of the- the meal, Dad is going to read the Bible.

Jim: Hm.

Rosaria: And dad is going to say, you know, I’m so glad you’re at my home. In my home, at the end of a meal, we read the Bible and we pray. And you know what? We have done this with our pagan friends and neighbors for decades. And we … No one has ever thrown a tomato at my face.

Jim: (laughs)

Rosaria: Nobody’s ever … I- I mean often the people at the table will ask the question that all the kids wanna know anyway. How long will it take, and do I have to pray out loud?

Jim: Right, exactly.

Rosaria: Okay.

Jim: How long? (laughs)

Rosaria: But you know my … Our children, our youngest children, um, you know, they’ve come to Christ. And they have spent their childhood, listening to their parents beg their neighbors to put their faith in Christ. I mean, you know, like we would do the good parent thing, we’d like put them to bed.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Rosaria: And then we’d realize, oh there’s … They- they’ve got their blankies.

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: And they’re snugglies, and they’re under the table, listening to … Like that’s, they were like kind of steeped in that.

Jim: Yeah.

Rosaria: And so I think what … You know, and here’s how you know it’s hospitality, it’s not entertainment. It’s gonna cost you money. Somebody’s going to break something, and it’s going to take a lot of time. But what it does is, it allows you to at least in good conscience, speak the truth to your neighbor’s. Now, in a post-Obergefell world, does that mean that they won’t hate you, they won’t fire you, and they won’t lying to you? No, it doesn’t.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Rosaria: No it doesn’t. It just means that your conscience is clear.

Jim: Right.

Rosaria: As you say, I’m a lover of your soul, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the King of Kings, and the Lord of lords, knows you better than you know yourself. And this book, the Bible, it knows you better than you know yourself too. And you’re gonna be okay. I mean, you may lose these things, but you’re gonna gain things as well. But there’s a reality to the Christian life that you don’t understand. And I would love to spend some time, talking to you about it.

Jim: That would be good. We’ll come back and do that again.

Rosaria: (laughs)

Jim: But Rosaria, this has been terrific. And once again, I mean I’m just in awe of what God has done in your life. Seriously, it is-

Rosaria: Praise be to God, yes.

Jim: You are a female version of the apostle Paul in what journey you have had, going from lesbian, to lover of God, in the truest Biblical form. And then trying to shout from the mountain tops, how we’re made, whose image we’re made in, and, uh where we need to go. So thank you. Thank you for all the effort-

Rosaria: Yeah.

Jim: To think these things through.

Rosaria: Thank you. All the glory goes to God.

Jim: Amen.

John: What a great conversation on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Now Rosaria Butterfield has such a wonderful testimony of what God has done in her life. And she shares with such clarity. And we didn’t have time, Jim, to get to the fifth lie, uh, about the culture in her book, that Modesty is Outdated. For that reason, let me encourage you as a listener to get the book from us here at Focus, to read more about that. And go deeper on the four lies that we’ve already discussed.

Jim: John, it’s incredible to see how God changed Rosaria’s heart. It still blows me away, but it shows that there’s hope for everyone. No one’s beyond the reach of God. And each of us needs God to transform our hearts and make us new. Each one of us. And that’s His plan for all of creation, redemption. Another part of His great plan is His design for marriage and family. We didn’t create these institutions, He did. And when you fight against him, I don’t think there’s much hope. American culture is suffering today, with the breakdown of the family. And the fallout is everywhere. It’s a Godly thing to desire a spouse of the opposite sex. And we also know that children do best in intact homes, with moms and dads. And that’s backed up by ample social science. And we need to model strong Christian families to help people see God’s plan more clearly. And that’s why Focus exists, to share God’s sovereign design for the family, and the fulfilling, meaningful life that comes from knowing and serving Jesus Christ. He’s much bigger and better than anything the world can offer. You just need to, uh, discover that, and that’s the purpose for Focus. We are here to help lead people to the Lord, to strengthen their marriages, to help them in their parenting journey, to help them make the right choice when it comes to life or abortion. Uh, that work is going on every day here, and we need your help, financially and your prayers. There is a match right now, because of some generous friends of this ministry. When you donate $25 for example, your gift will be doubled to $50. That’s twice as much impact for the Kingdom, and no amount is too small to make a difference. 5, 10 dollars is great, so thanks for donating to help us help families.

John: And for your contribution of any amount, monthly if you can, or a one-time donation, we’ll send Rosaria’s book, Five Lies of Our Anti-Christian Age. It’s our way of saying thank you for standing with us and supporting families. Donate and request the book when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Or you can donate and request the book at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And if you like what you heard today, check out Jim’s podcast. He had a much longer conversation with Rosaria. You’ll find that at refocuswithjimdaly.com. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.