Day One
John Fuller: We are forever changed and tremendously grateful for the tools given to us to change our stormy relationship into a peaceful calm. What a gift God has given us here in a safe environment with counselors and staff who are totally walking in a close relationship with Christ. “Miracles happen.” Oh, those were comments of someone whose marriage was transformed through Hope Restored, Focus on the Family’s marriage intensives. Marriage transformation is the topic of the show today. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, this conversation is so important because marriage is the foundation of the family. I think we’re seeing that now throughout the culture, and everyone goes through difficult seasons of life, which can cause, uh, married couples to become disconnected, and in the worst case, divorced. Whatever stage of the marriage journey you’re in, our conversation today will offer some, uh, ways to get even healthier.
John: I’m really looking forward to the conversation, Jim. As you know, Dena and I, we went through a season where it was really hard, and, uh, we actually attended a Hope Restored marriage intensive. It changed us significantly, and we used the tools we gained there every day. So I’m really thrilled that we have this conversation for you. It was one of our Best Of shows for the year. Uh, so many were touched by the encouragement and what was offered, so we’re coming back to it again today. The guests you’ll hear from are Tara Lalonde, a counselor with Hope Restored at Focus Canada, and Bob Paul, Vice President of the Focus on the Family Marriage Institute, which means he had a major part in creating Hope Restored. They’ve co-written a book full of concepts from Hope Restored and how they’ve applied them in their own marriages. It’s called Empowered to Love: Discovering Your God-Given Power to Create a Marriage You Both Love. You can find details about the book and Hope Restored at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or give us a call for further details. 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Let’s go ahead and hear the conversation now.
Jim: Tara and Bob, welcome to the program.
Dr. Bob Paul: Oh, so good to be here.
Tara Lalonde: Thank you.
Bob: So exciting to be here.
Jim: Good. I am excited about this. This get- gets, it gets me going. When we’re helping 170,000 couples through crisis, that’s meaningful-
Bob: Mm-hmm.
Jim: In a year. I mean, that’s just one year. So thank you for your efforts in making that happen so directly. There’s so much that we’re doing in that marriage space, you know, not just kind of this, uh, drastic moment where you can come to Hope Restored and hopefully g- get your marriage back on track. But even maintenance things like Marriage 911 and some other things that we do. So if your marriage is not where you want it to be, just get ahold of us. Uh, you know, we’ve been at it 45 years. You’re not gonna surprise us.
Tara: (Laughs).
Jim: We want to help you. And, uh, you know, everybody can use a little bit of help in this space, even if you’re doing well. Uh, Tara, let’s get into it. The big part of the book is the research you found during your dissertation. I love this.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You did a PhD program at Liberty. Uh, can you give us kind of the background and what you were looking for? What caught your attention to even do this?
Tara: Yeah, so really exciting. Uh, this was back in probably 2014, I think, is when I defended, and I studied the Hope Restored Program. Didn’t even know what it was when I started my research. But as I interviewed, I did a qualitative study. Qualitative is different from quantitative. Quantitative is numbers. My brain doesn’t do numbers. It was qualitative. I interviewed six couples who had all gone through a marriage intensive one year prior.
Jim: Okay.
Tara: All right?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tara: Three of the couples … All of them said it was amazing. They loved the program. They were hopeful going forward, they were gonna do this-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tara: … at the end of the intensive. ‘Cause we always do an end of intensive survey.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tara: So they all said it was good. One year later, three of the couples were continuing with their gains. They were doing well, things were moving in the direction that they were wanting it to. Three couples were not. Two of them, sadly, were on the way to divorce.
Jim: Yeah. And in that, it’s, some of that is just putting into practice those things that you’re learning. And I don’t, you know, we as human beings, (laughs) I, I mean, I’m guilty of that. You know? I can know to do the right thing, but doing-
Bob: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … the right thing is a whole other thing. Bob, we’re talking mostly today about, uh, practically treating your spouse well and managing that conflict. And we’re gonna get into all of that. Um, I also want to share some encouragement with people who feel like they have lost that love in their marriage. The fact that it can be rekindled. Is that truly a hope if it feels dark and not very warm in my relationship with my spouse?
Bob: Without question. What we find is that, you know, we ask couples one question before they come to Hope Restored. And this is the question, if God was to work a miracle in your marriage, would you accept it? Now, this miracle could seem impossible to them. Uh, and we consider a miracle, um, both people loving the relationship and the direction it’s headed. So it’s a big deal. We’re talking the, you know, the bar’s set high, and that’s the only question they have to answer yes to. So we see these couples come in, in desperate shape, oftentimes can barely look at each other. And what our staff gets to witness is God comes in and does miraculous work in our hearts. ’cause if our heart’s available, He will not hesitate to come in-
Jim: Let-
Bob: They walk away hand in hand.
Jim: Well, the, the follow up there is, you know, w- why is it so important that a person, uh, stay connected to God for the best outcome? I mean, it’s kind of self-evident, but …
Bob: Well, I mean, really, God is critical to our life, period. Just survival. I mean, we don’t … The only reason I’m here breathing is because God’s hand is on me. So to not do this with God and to not open our heart to Him and to see what’s possible with Him, because He is so devoted to our health and wellbeing, and He wants our relationships to be awesome, like His relationships are.
John: Mmm.
Jim: Tara, I don’t know, let me ask the question this way. It seems like from the garden, way back when-
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … we hide. We hide from God. I mean, it’s like in our human DNA now. That’s I think, part of the definition, when sin entered the world, we became shameful.
Tara: Right.
Jim: I mean, it’s kind of interesting to think about it. W- what does taking personal responsibility look like in a marriage?
Tara: Oh, good question.
Jim: Yeah, (laughs), big question.
Tara: Because this is kind of the big piece with both the intensives, but also our book. Personal responsibility is really taking your power back. It’s what I have responsibility for and knowing what I don’t have responsibility for. So many couples, like, “Fix him,” right? Or her.
Jim: Jenni might agree with that. I don’t know. (Laughs).
Tara: (Laughs) Right?
Jim: Sorry, Bob.
Bob: Absolutely, yes.
Tara: But we don’t have any power over there. If I’m trying to do all this work to get Vince fixed, I have no control there.
Jim: Yeah.
Tara: But if I can focus in and look at, “What can I do differently? How can I make this situation better? How can I care for my heart?”
Jim: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Tara: That’s … Well, you know, what comes to mind? You know, coming outta Proverbs, one of the wisest people, or the wisest person outside of Jesus, King Solomon said, “Above all else, guard your spouse’s heart?”
Jim: (Laughs).
Tara: “Above all else, guard your heart.” It’s the wellspring of your life. This is so important. Above everything else, we need to do internal personal work.
Jim: Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, even going back again to the garden when Adam says, “Yeah, that woman you gave me.”
Bob: (Laughs).
Jim: Right?
Bob: Right, yes.
Jim: I mean, he quickly deflected-
Tara: Blatant. Right there.
Jim: … responsibility. But that is the example we’re talking about.
Tara: Yeah.
Jim: You know, “I’d have, I’d have a lot better marriage if you …” Fill in the blank. “If you did this, if you did that.” And that’s part of working on your own stuff and, and-
Tara: Yeah.
Jim: … kinda letting your spouse work on their stuff. Um, again, how did personal responsibility help? And I’m sure these are not their real names, and we protect people that way.
Bob: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Jim: But in your, uh, study, you talked to Sadie and Bill-
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … within that research group. How were they managing that personal responsibility, or not?
Tara: Yeah. Oh, I love that. They came out of it, both excited about it, but very quickly after that, Sadie went back into just pain and hurt. The betrayal from Bill was pretty significant leading into the intensive. But Bill grabbed hold of this, and he has changed. And he dug into his relationship with the Lord. He took that responsibility and decided, “I’m not gonna be that guy anymore.” And that changed things. It was nine months, nine months before Sadie was able to recognize, “You know what? I think this is gonna stick. I think the change is real.” And then she was able to start-
Jim: Wow.
Tara: … looking at her own pain and doing her own healing. I saw them three months later and they were in a very different place. It was so powerful.
Jim: Boy, that’s good. Um, Bob, let me ask you, why is creating … And, and let me, for the listener and the viewer, you know, we’ll talk about reactive cycle. You may have heard that a moment ago. We’ll get into all that definition. But Bob, why is creating a safe marriage so important? And what’s the definition of a safe marriage?
Bob: Well, you know, it’s interesting because the … Most people, if you ask them, is their marriage safe? The first thing, and maybe even the only thing they think of, is it physically safe? Which of course is extremely important.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Bob: However, we broaden that because when we’re talking about safety, we’re talking about, um, not only physically, but mentally, spiritually, and emotionally.
Jim: Yeah.
Bob: Because what we found is that when people truly feel safe in the relationship in all those ways, they just relax. And when they relax, their hearts open, they give the Lord access, and things start to change in them and between them almost effortlessly.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
Bob: So we really focus on saying, “You want to be taking an inventory. Do both of you really feel safe in all those areas? And if not, what’s missing? And what could you do differently to increase that?”
Jim: Yeah. You know, uh, I want to get to an example of what that looks like. How your marriage can have that safety and what that looks like. Jean caught me on a parenting one, and I have that application where, you know, I’m a pretty big guy, and when I would be upset with the boys, she was just noticing how they were responding to me. If my voice was up, I mean, I … Physically, that would never happen. But it just, you know, my aggravation on something and my voice would be up and my stature would be up.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And they’re like five. And she said, “Man, you gotta get down on a knee. Because I was watching the boys. When you are upset, you get bigger-
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and you’re already a big guy.” So that was interesting, um, a- just how to manage my physical presence in front of my sons when I wasn’t pleased with something they had done, to kind of get down on their level. I’m sure that application is true in marriage too.
Bob: Oh my gosh. I want to, I want to create a place where, for both me and Jenni, both of us feel so relaxed, not fearing in any way that either our bodies will be dishonored or disrespected, our thoughts, that’s mental safety, that we would not feel, um, that we’re about to be criticized for the way we think. Our hearts would be safe. Our feelings would feel welcomed and safe, and our spirit, that we would be able to pray together and be in front of God together without fear of criticism or ridicule.
John: Mmm. Uh, this is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And our guests today are Dr. Bob Paul and Tara Lalonde. And, uh, they’re talking about content from their book, Empowered to Love. And, uh, we’ve got copies of that here at the ministry. Also, Jim mentioned, uh, our team can talk with you and, uh, offer some direction. Uh, our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. And you’ll find details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And, and right here we’re talking about something that was really meaningful to Dena and me. And that is, uh, what you mentioned earlier at Tara, the reactive cycle. This is something that just was huge for us because we were always hitting that. Why don’t you to describe what that is.
Tara: Yeah. So, reactive cycle is one of our most powerful tools. I mean, they’re all really, really powerful, but it’s a diagnostic tool really. So how that works is one or the other gets triggered, a button gets pressed.
Jim: Hmm.
Tara: And immediately our prefrontal cortex go offline. And we are in this fight-flight place or a shutdown place. But what that ends up looking like, when we feel that we’re no longer adult brain driving the bus, now we’re reacting. So our button gets pressed and immediately we react. And our reactions, pretty much guaranteed, are gonna press a button of our spouse, and their brains go offline too-
Jim: We are so good at that.
Bob: (Laughs). Yeah.
Jim: I mean, as human-
Tara: Oh, my gosh.
Jim: … beings. We are so good at pressing each other’s buttons.
Tara: Oh yeah.
Jim: It’s crazy.
Tara: And what … Most couples don’t go out, “I’m going to get you.”
Jim: Right. Not at all.
Tara: Look, we just, we just don’t.
John: Yeah.
Tara: But anything can press a button because they’re my buttons.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Actually the more subtle, the button pressing, the more sophisticated we perceive ourselves (laughs).
Bob: (Laughs). Yes.
Tara: Sometimes.
Jim: I press that button so easily.
John: Oh, man. I am so good at this.
Tara: Right?
Jim: But you in fact have an example which will help everybody and maybe, uh, the others of us here at the table will have examples. But it was a restaurant with your husband, and describe … I mean, this is such a simple example of how this works.
Tara: Oh yeah. Right? I mean, it happens all the time. But we were at this beautiful little restaurant. We were in Nice. It was gorgeous. A lovely day. We had this lunch, I can even remember what we were eating. It was wonderful. But it was lunch. And I mean, we’re on vacation. You’re eating tons. And we had decided together that, “Let’s just share an appetizer and share a main ’cause we don’t need a huge meal, and then have dinner later.”
Jim: (Laughs).
Tara: Good plan. It was all good. I ordered, and they brought the appetizer and then they brought the main on two plates and we just thought, “Oh, that was nice. They split it.” ‘Cause you’ve been to restaurants where that’s-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tara: … happened. “They’ve split it up for us-
Jim: Yeah, that’s very nice.
Tara: … great, this is good.” It was delicious. It was a, a tuna … It was amazing.
Jim: And you ate it all, both of you?
Tara: And we both indeed ate it all.
John: (Laughs).
Jim: That’s important for the end of the story.
Bob: Yeah.
Jim: Go ahead.
Tara: Yeah, it, it wasn’t too much food. But the problem was, when the bill came they charged us for two mains.
John: Oh.
Tara: So it was a mistake, a miscommunication, or the waiter. I don’t know. But it’s France and I don’t speak French.
John: (Laughs).
Tara: So there could have been something like that. Now Vince does speak French. He’s fully Francophone, but I happen to be the one making the order. And that pressed a button for Vince, and he was really disappointed. You gotta understand, Vince is somebody who values precision, and getting things right, and accuracy. And when this didn’t happen, and I was the one who made the order. Okay? So you’re beginning to see-
Jim: You made the mistake.
Tara: … where this might go. Mmm.
Jim: Button, button, button.
Tara: Button.
John: (Laughs).
Tara: So there’s this disappointment button in him that’s being pressed and I’m the cause of it.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tara: So immediately he blames me.
Jim: And how’d that make you feel?
Tara: Great.
John: (Laughs).
Bob: (Laughs).
Tara: No. (Laughs).
Jim: Right. That then pushes that button to say-
Tara: Oh, my goodness.
Jim: “Now, you’ve got shame and guilt ’cause you didn’t manage that well.”
John: Mm-hmm.
Tara: Right. So-
Jim: Now you’re gonna push another button of his now.
Tara: Yeah. So I feel judged, and that’s a big one for me. And back up. There you go. Brain’s not there. Adult isn’t present anymore. And I start reacting. And I don’t remember if I got defensive, probably that would’ve been the first one out of the gate, getting defensive. And of course my defensiveness gets hit and we ramp it up a notch-
John: Yeah.
Tara: And another button’s pressed for him and he starts criticizing, and now we’re off to the races.
Jim: “This is a wonderful vacation-
John: Yeah. (Laughs).
Jim: … so glad we did this and spent all this money in France.”
Tara: I had no idea that you were there, Jim.
Jim: (Laughs). Oh, believe me, I was there-
Tara: (Laughs).
Jim: It just was a different day. And it was Jean and me.
John: Yeah.
Tara: Right? Mmm. Yeah. So we … And off we go-
Jim: Yeah.
Tara: … and we do that.
Jim: A-
Tara: You know what got worse about this? I mean, I teach this stuff-
Jim: I love this, more confession.
Tara: Right? I teach this stuff. So I was able to kind of pause this. And in fairness, Vince doesn’t spend too many times with this, he’ll shut down and we don’t. But then I take the baton and, “Okay, so we’re not gonna do this? I’m gonna start doing it in my own head.” And I started having my own reactive cycle of, “Here we are, we’re on vacation. This was wha- …”
Jim: (Laughs).
Tara: Doing what you said, but in my head. And I’m pressing my own buttons, making this worse.
Jim: Oh man.
Tara: Until finally my adult brain went, “Tara, this isn’t helping.” Maybe it was Holy Spirit too.
Jim: Yeah.
Tara: … saying, “Um, honey, this isn’t helping.”
Jim: (Laughs).
Tara: And I took a deep breath. “You’re right.” And then I moved to a place of back into my own yard, paying attention to my own heart, caring, having compassion, not lighting myself on fire.
Jim: Let me ask both of you, since you are the practitioners at Hope Restored. Tara, you with Canada, and Bob, of course here in the US. Is this … I mean I have the impression that this is like 80% of the problem in this communication style. Of course we have severe issues of infidelity. But just in the day-to-day, all of us kind of category, the button pushing to me seems to be … Like, for Jean and I, this is the issue, and we try to do it better. And to Jean’s credit, she is so good now at, uh, kind of de-escalating the energy, which is really good. But, but I’m just saying from kind of your day to day normal stuff in marriage, is this one of the big things?
Bob: You know, when we first found this, you know, many, many years ago, we didn’t realize that it applied to everybody.
John: (Laughs). Yeah.
Bob: We found out this is-
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Bob: This is what’s going on, underlying conflict with virtually everyone. Everyone’s got their own, you know, unique version of it. Because our, my buttons are different than Tara’s buttons than your buttons and John’s buttons and Jenni’s buttons. They’re all different. But the cycle itself operates exactly the same. And once you can see it, as Tara said, it’s diagnostic, it doesn’t fix anything, it just helps you. It turns the light on.
Jim: Yeah.
Bob: Shows you the problem so you can then begin to see. Like Jean, like you just described Jean, how you break the cycle. That’s exactly what you want to do-
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Bob: … is you wanna pause and not react so that the cycle stops.
Jim: Now let me ask this, I mean, this to me sounds like most of the antecedents in a difficult marriage, which lead to the big issues like infidelity and other things.
Tara: Oh yeah.
Jim: These things, these button-pushing things, are probably the things that are weakening the relationship to the point where the other things happen. Is that fair?
Bob: I think that-
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Bob: … that’s going on constantly. There’s a variety of things that can get people to that point. Sometimes just inattention can get people there.
Jim: Yeah.
Bob: But yeah, there’s a bunch of things that can affect it. But this certainly has a big influence.
Jim: Well, and I guess what, i- i- … For me it’s rationalizing, “Okay, what do I need to concentrate on?”
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Back to your example of that couple. “If I could concentrate just on this, does that solve 80% of my problems in my marriage?” And I, I don’t know that it’s that clean.
Tara: Yeah.
Jim: But you can tell I’m a numbers guy. (Laughs).
Tara: I, I would … I, I am not a numbers person so I can’t talk numbers, but I would say for sure-
Jim: Work on this.
Tara: … even more maybe than 80%. Like, if you can start recognizing what your buttons are, what gets you going, and resolve that-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tara: … I think that can resolve just about everything, whether it’s infidelity things-
Jim: Yeah, you’ll-
Tara: … whether it’s addiction things.
Jim: … be on a good trajectory for a healthy marriage is the point.
Bob: Yeah.
Tara: Yeah.
Jim: Bob, in the book you talk about these reactions, knee-jerk reactions we might refer to them, regarding conflict.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And there’s two words, very scientific, hedgehog and shadow monster.
Bob: (Laughs).
Tara: Indeed.
Jim: I … This is why you get a PhD.
Bob: Yeah.
Jim: So what are the hedgehog and shadow monster definitions?
Bob: You know, a, a shadow monster … And this is really … Uh, I credit Tara for this ’cause this was really ideas that she brought forth and they’re fabulous. But the truth is, um, we typically go to one, one strategy or another. And the shadow monster is like when something vulnerable gets triggered in you and you don’t want to admit it, or share it, or even acknowledge it. What we tend to do is we project a pretty scary image out there as if you had a, uh, flashlight focused on you projecting a big image on the wall to get the other person to go, “Hmm,” and back off. And that’s a way to keep your vulnerability from being evidenced by what’s going on in the moment. So that’s what a shadow monster is. And many times we do that, we wanna look big and scary so that they don’t know how vulnerable we feel inside. The hedgehog is when we just wanna curl up in a little ball and have our pricklies out there and just basically wanted to hide and, and, “You know that you wanna leave me alone because if you come and try and embrace me at that point you’re gonna get stuck.” So those are two strategies that are very, very common that any one of us could employ. Either or both.
Jim: (Laughs). Yeah. I’m laughing ’cause I think I do both at times.
John: Yeah.
Tara: Right? We probably all do.
Bob: Oh, I certainly do. Yeah.
Tara: Yeah. And we’re protecting the little child inside.
John: Mm-hmm.
Tara: … that doesn’t wanna be seen.
John: Yeah. Yeah.
Jim: Stopping that reactive cycle, uh, requires … In the book you say it requires, um, healthy self-care. When I first read that I’m thinking, “Uh, okay. What’s healthy self-care,” ’cause it sounds kinda flaky, sorry. but gimme that definition of healthy self-care.
Tara: Yeah. Honestly we have five steps to healthy self-care. First you gotta become aware. You know? What is going on? Notice what’s happening in your body because there’s pretty much always a physiological thing that’s going on when your button gets pressed.
Jim: Huh.
Tara: Yeah. So whether it’s, “Ooh my heart’s racing,” or, “I’m feeling sweaty,” or, “I’m just noticing that my muscles are getting tense and I’m …” or, “My stomach is dropping or jumping or whatever.” There’s something. And if you can slow down and become aware, that’s the beginning.
Jim: Hmm.
Tara: Okay. The next step is really, really key. Accepting. This one is hard ’cause you’re accepting the feelings-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tara: … these yucky things that we wanna push away, I have to accept them, and the responsibility to take care of them.
Jim: Yeah.
Tara: And that’s really hard. And we go into more detail about that. Then we wanna allow God to be part of this, because why not get the perspective of the one who actually sees better than I am without my adult brain?
Jim: Well I so appreciate that. ‘Cause I was gonna ask that follow up blending of, you know, things that are happening, psychological models, you know, God created us, people can study how we think, how we behave, what our emotions are. And some of us in the Christian community kind of trip on that a little bit. Like again, like we have to be on a switch. All about psychology and not God or all about God and not recognizing how He’s created us. But you guys, I mean it’s the blending of that, correct?
Tara: Yeah.
Jim: The understanding-
Tara: God, wired our brains.
Jim: … of the models, and … Yeah.
Tara: He created us this way. So if we can understand his creation and how he wired us, and bring him into it. As believers, we have something that the rest of the world doesn’t have. We don’t have less, we have more. It’s not an either or. It’s both.
Jim: Which is why it brings us all the way back to what we started with. You know, if you can answer that question, can God do a miracle in your marriage?
Tara: Yes.
Jim: You gotta be able to say, “Yes He can.” If you say no, your heart is already indicating it’s so hard, it’s gonna be nearly impossible to change that. Bob, let me uh, extend that self-care idea. The idea that you need to work on the proactive self-care. Describe it for me.
Bob: Okay, so proactive is just general maintenance. Uh, you know, just taking care of yourself, um, you know, making sure you get plenty of exercise, eat well, rest, and so forth. The reality is though that, Jim, nobody ever comes to us for help with proactive self-care.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Bob: They come to us with, for help, “What do I do when my buttons get pushed?” That’s reactive. And, and then there’s the care cycle is one of the things … Matter of fact, the whole purpose of us writing this book, the distinctive that makes this book different than what we’ve done previously, is we’re saying many times in the culture and even in the church, we inadvertently put the cart before the horse. We basically make it all about the marriage the moment we get married. Like we blow out the candles on the, the unity candle and we ignore ourselves. But the reality is the marriage doesn’t exist apart from the people and can never be healthier or more empowered than the people. So we’re saying, let’s make sure that our personal journey is to be fully who God created us to be and bring every drop of what he gave us is actively in place. And then add to it caring well for the relationship and building a good relationship. So, first two-thirds of the book is on the personal responsibility, on our relationship with God, on getting whole and healthy, finding our purpose, and how that relates to the marriage. And then the last third is then how do you take those great principles and turn your marriage into something you love?
Jim: What great insights from Bob and Tara and they shared so many important tools for loving your spouse well, and there are many more in part two of this conversation. So come back and listen to that tomorrow. And I hope you feel empowered to care for yourself and your spouse. And here at Focus, we want to help your marriage thrive. It’s the way it should be as believers, particularly. If you have a desire to see your marriage transformed, I wanna encourage you to check out Hope Restored. Couples who participate in that program have an 80% success rate of remaining married two years after attending. We go back to those couples two years later. “Are you still married? And how are you doing?” And John, you’ll have the details on how to find that information in a minute.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And if Focus has made a difference in your marriage, please consider, uh, supporting financially the ministry here at Focus on the Family, especially as the year comes to an end. As you celebrate the holidays with your family, I hope that you’ll be willing to give back to Focus so that we can use those resources to touch others. And if you make a gift today, your donation will be doubled dollar for dollar through a matching campaign that is going on right now. And I wanna personally promise you that your donation will go right back into ministry to give families hope.
John: Yeah. Call today, donate generously as you can. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Or you can online and request that book at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And if you enjoyed this Best of 2024 show and want to hear more of the conversations, check out our Best of 2024 audio collection. It’s free and it’s 18 terrific conversations from the past 12 months. We’ve got the link at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back tomorrow as we share the continuation of the conversation with Tara and Bob, and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two
Dr. Bob Paul: And we’re convinced, and we talk a lot about this, that the essence of real romance and passion is fascination and curiosity.
John Fuller: Well, those are insights from Bob Paul and he, uh, along with Tara Lalonde, joined us earlier this year on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly to help married couples. And this was one of our best programs of the year. We had so many people deeply moved by what was shared that we wanted to give you another opportunity to hear it. Thanks for joining us today. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: Uh, John yesterday we shared the first half of the show, and it covered unhealthy patterns of conflict and how you can break through them with self-care, even if your spouse isn’t participating with you in that. And, uh, if you didn’t get a chance to listen, I’d recommend that you go back and hear that. You can get the app or go to the website-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … to get that, uh, program. Today’s show involves what boundaries look like in marriage, and it’ll give you some more tools for healthy communication.
John: Tara Lalonde and Bob Paul are both counselors with Focus on the Family and they co-wrote the book that this conversation was based on. It’s called Empowered to Love: Discovering Your God-Given Power to Create a Marriage You Both Love. Get a copy of the book when you call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Alright, here’s, uh, the second part of this Best of 2024, Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Jim: Tara and Bob, welcome back.
Bob: So good to be here.
Jim: Looking forward to the discussion. It was, for me, it was engaging ’cause I’m going, “Oh yeah. Okay. That’s me and Jean and…” But let me, uh, (laughs) let me hit another button here. Uh, Tara, I aim this one at you. Uh, one barrier to being empowered to love is blaming your spouse for your unhealthy conflict. Now let me see everybody’s hand if you-
John: (laughs).
Jim: … have done that.
Tara: (laughs).
Jim: Uh, man, u- yeah, I mean, it’s just human nature.
Bob: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What would you say to someone who is struggling with that? Let’s just pretend you’re talking to me, for example, about how I tend to blame Jean for things.
Tara Lalonde: Yeah. Well, in the book there’s actually a story about how God convicted Bob in that.
Jim: Shall we let Bob share that story or what?
Tara: Yeah, you wanna share, you wanna share that?
Bob: I-
Jim: Bob would you like to share that? Then Tara can analyze it.
Bob: Okay, yeah.
Tara: Oh, that’s fun.
Bob: I’m sure she can, as a matter of fact. (laughs) Um, you know, I was a world-class blamer. I mean, it seemed-
Jim: (laughs).
Bob: … to me, it seemed to me that every time we had a conflict that, you know, I would be focused on what Jenni did I didn’t like and what I want her to do differently. And, and I was whining and complaining because she just wasn’t getting with the program and making the changes that I was suggesting. So I’m not, you know, she’s not listening to me. So I’m whining to God. And God met me in a very convicting way. Um, and He basically asked me a couple of questions and when He convicts me, He usually throws me off guard. So the first thing He said is, “Bob, right now, who are you seeing as causing the problem?” Well, of cou- you know, her.
Jim: That woman you gave me.
Bob: That’s exactly right-
Tara: Yeah.
Bob: … “And who are you seeing as holding the keys to the solution?” Well, again, if she would just, instead of this, and He said, “So Bob, who has all the power?” Well she does. And, “Bob, how did she get it?” Well, I guess I gave it to her. He said, “Bob, I didn’t give you the power to give it to her. I gave you the power to use responsibly.” And that’s the biggest thing that we see about blame is that when you’re blaming the other person, you are inadvertently giving them your power and disempowering yourself. And that is not God’s intent. So we really suggest, back off of the blame. You’re not doing yourself or your relationship any favors.
Jim: Now let me ask this, uh, Gary Thomas in his great book on marriage, and of course we interviewed-
Tara: Yes.
Jim: … him, he’s a good friend of the ministry. And we got into this and he said, you know, “M- m- m- it’s not common for us as a couple to know that what marriage is about, is about making us more like Christ, selfless-
Tara: Right.
Jim: … and rubbing off those edges.” And I think about that a lot because if that’s part of the institution of marriage that God created for us to become more like Him in that institution of marriage to become more selfless, that means we have to not be selfish.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And man, are we selfish-
Bob: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … in-
Tara: Right.
Jim: … our relationship? Probably the most selfish relationship we have is with our spouse, in different ways. Until you’re getting healthier and healthier. And then you realize, you know, when the Lord said to men, “Lay your life down-
John: Yeah-
Jim: For your wife.”
John: … Ephesians 5.
Jim: Wow. I mean that, what a command that is. And can we really do it emotionally?
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, woof.
Bob: Now, you know, it’s interesting because I would agree with everything you’re saying. And at the same time, caring well for yourself is not being self-centered. It’s actually just attending to-
Jim: Oh, yeah.
Bob: … being fully who God created you to be, whole and healthy, so you can bring your best self back to the relationship and to your spouse. And you know what’s interesting, Jim, you were talking about infatuation. And I’d like to speak into that for just a moment t-
Jim: That first couple of years of-
Bob: Oh-
Jim: … your marriage.
Bob: Oh yeah.
Jim: Yeah.
Bob: Because it is delightful.
Jim: (laughs).
Bob: And what we’ve analyzed and what we talk about a lot in the book is that what’s exciting about that is that we are on this journey of discovery, getting to know this, this wholly different unique individual that has all these delightful qualities. And then the relationship begins to fade and it loses that spark. And what people don’t realize is that what causes the romance and passion to dissipate is that we actually stop being focused on getting to know our spouse like we did originally. And we’re convinced, and we talk a lot about this, that the essence of real romance and passion is fascination and curiosity. And you gotta get to the point where you go, “Same old, same old. There’s nothing new to learn.” And matter of fact, I can tell you one of the most sad counseling stories that I ever encountered. Guy came-
Jim: Wait a second, everybody want to hear that?
John: Okay. We do.
Tara: (laughs)
Bob: Okay. Guy came into me with his wife, um, having the situation that’s maybe the most common we deal with. He’d had an affair. He was very upset ’cause he was a devout believer and he was very critical of people who had ever had an affair. And then he found himself in that position and he said, “What’s going on here?” And he did some work before he came to us that most people don’t. He figured out why. And what he came to me and said was that, “The reason was because I had inadvertently let the romance and passion in my relationship fade. And, um, I want you to help us rekindle the romance.” And I told him what I just said to you, that actually the essence is fascination and curiosity.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Bob: And you gotta continue to be in that journey of getting to know each other in deeper and deeper ways. The Hebrew word is yada, to know. Okay. So he looks at me like this and he puts his, he leans back and he goes, “I don’t buy it.”
Jim: (laughs) Okay.
Bob: “Okay, why?” He says, “Bob, my wife truly is maybe one of the most loving people on the planet, but she’s just not that complicated.”
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Bob: “And I’ll tell you, there is nothing about her that I don’t already know.” And then he wags his finger at me and her ’cause she’s there too, and says, “I dare either one of you to come up with anything about her I don’t already know.” And I looked at him, I said, “Man, if that’s the case, you’re sunk.” But I knew he was wrong.
Jim: Yeah, yeah.
Bob: Because truthfully, one lifetime isn’t close to enough time to fully get to know any human being, yourself included. I mean, I’ve been married now for over 43 years. I am learning new things about Jenni Paul every single day. And just to make it interesting, she keeps changing on me.
John: (laughs).
Bob: But that’s okay. There’s always something new and exciting to learn.
Jim: There is that little hard-to-get thing that is very interesting. (laughs)
Bob: Oh, yeah. I’m learning new things about me all the time and I’ve been hanging with me even longer.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah, that’s, okay, so I would think that is an extremely prideful man-
Bob: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … to think he could get there.
Bob: Uh, yeah. And very deceived.
Jim: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Bob: To, because I mean his wife.
Jim: So what happened? Did he have the aha? Did he go, “Okay”-
Bob: Sadly-
Jim: … as soon as she said, “Well this is something you don’t know about me”?
Bob: … Uh, no. She actually was f- believing that about herself.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Bob: And he-
Jim: Ah.
Bob: … And they, they actually left and he figured I had nothing to help him with because there w- had to be some magic pill that I could have given him-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Bob: … instead. And you know what’s really kind of sad is another place where this happens very powerfully spiritually is people who’ve been in church for a long period of time-
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Bob: … get to a point that they think they got Him figured out. And if one lifetime isn’t close to enough time to get to know any human being, a 100 lifetimes-
Jim: Yeah.
Bob: … isn’t close to enough time to get to know our Lord, the Creator and Sustainer of the universe.
Jim: (laughs) Right.
Bob: And the romance fades-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Bob: … out of your spiritual life.
Jim: Mm-hmm. Let me, e- e- uh, my mind is spinning, but let’s keep this moving. Um, you have a story about the links that Jenni, your wife, went to in setting boundaries w- with your e- early marriage because you were not cooperating appropriately. What happened in that story?
Bob: Okay. This is m- m- the most commonly told story in our-
Jim: I love-
Bob: … organization.
Jim: … Jean loved this story. I shared it with there-
Tara: We all love this story.
Jim: … this morning.
Bob: It’s very embarrassing, but it’s s- sadly true. Uh, you-
Jim: (laughs).
Bob: … see, as I said earlier, when Jenni would do something I didn’t like, I thought the thing that I was supposed to do as a responsible husband is to go to her and talk to her about the things she did I didn’t like and the things I wanted her to do differently. And for some reason she never enjoyed those conversations.
Jim: Let me just have a gut check. Tara, you’re a woman. You’re a wife.
Bob: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Is that the way we men should approach that is straightening you out?
Tara: Yeah, doesn’t hit any buttons at all. Ever. Every single time.
Jim: (laughs) Okay. Bob, back to you.
Tara: (laughs)
Bob: And it never went well for me either. So my wife, thankfully is a woman who has a very strong sense of self. And she started realizing that if she was to change all the things I wanted to change that soon there’d be no Jenni left.
Jim: Wow.
Bob: So she got-
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Bob: … She and God got into cahoots. And I came to her one day with that in mind, started yapping at her and she said, “Uh-uh”, and she walked away. Now of course I’m not gonna be put off by that. So I just started following her, yapping at her as she goes. And she’s going from room to room until finally she goes and she locks herself in the bedroom. And I’m thinking, “Cool, I got a captive audience. I might as well get comfortable.” So I sat down on the floor outside the bedroom door, kept the barrage going until I heard the car start. She literally pulled the screen off the window, c- opened the window, climbed out the window, was driving off down the way to get away from me. And I’m thinking, “She doesn’t care about God, she-
Jim: (laughs).
Bob: … doesn’t care about me, she doesn’t care about our marriage.” And I was sadly so mistaken because I had no idea how much, I was so off-base. I was so unsafe. I was so committed to trying to change my wife. And you know, it’s bad enough what you try and change your spouse and you get on their bad side. But you know, you’re kinda thumbing your nose at the Creator saying, “Hey, you could have done better.”
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Bob: And I don’t recommend that.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Just for the record, Jean loved that part of the story the most.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Jenni going out the window.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: She was like, “I love her.” (laughs)
Bob: Well, she ca- And she came back and I said, “You know, you aren’t, you were bailing on us.” And she said, “Bob, why are you making this about you? I was taking care of me so I could get myself back to a better place so I could bring a better me back to the relationship.”
Jim: So what have you learned-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … about those boundaries set by Jenni? I mean, what, what have you learned about that? Are-
Bob: Oh-
Jim: … you cool with it now?
Bob: I hated, I’ve hated every boundary she said, my wife is what I like to call a boundary ninja. Everything I’ve learned worth learning about boundaries, I learned with her, setting them with me. I hated every single one of them until God said-
Tara: Yay, Jenni.
Jim: … Yeah. I said really?
Bob: Yeah. I hated everyone until God said, “Bob, what she did is good. I want you to learn how to do it and I want you to teach others.”
Jim: Oh my goodness.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah, I mean there’s a lesson right there. Uh, Tara, let me ask you, in setting boundaries, which I think wives, I don’t wanna be too generalistic or stereotypical here ’cause the shoe could be on the other foot-
Tara: It can.
Jim: … I get that. But wives seem to, t- to know how to set those boundaries pretty well.
Tara: Oh, some do.
Jim: Yeah, so talk about-
Tara: And some don’t.
Jim: … talk about that boundary setting, the a- healthy aspect of it. I would think that, again, women tend to wear guilt so easily-
Tara: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jim: … that, that could be the conflict in the boundaries setting. “Well, I wanna set this boundary, but should I? I don’t know, I.”
Tara: Uh-uh.
Jim: You know, you, you get the head discussion going there.
Tara: Oh, yeah.
Jim: But speak to that issue of healthy boundary setting.
Tara: Right. Well first I wanna clarify, boundaries are not about making my spouse do or not do anything.
Bob: Right.
Tara: Jenni wasn’t setting a boundary so he would stop.
Bob: Right.
Tara: Jenni was setting a boundary so she could take care of her.
Bob: Yes.
Tara: So that she could show up well, right? So we don’t wanna just trade-
Jim: Yeah, I got it.
Tara: … and don’t be my Holy Spirit, I’ll be yours. No, he’s actually very good at it. And he’s still on the throne, right?
Jim: (laughs) That’s ri- Amen.
Tara: So a healthy boundary is basically first off saying a request that, “You know, I’m not happy with this behavior and I would like this behavior to stop or to change.” But with every request, no has to be an acceptable answer. Always, for love, to be love, no has to be an acceptable answer. We feel very strongly about this. So that works with boundaries too. So your spouse says, “No, I’m gonna keep doing this.” Okay. The boundary then is what do I need to do to make sure that I am safe in this situation? And that might be, “I need to step back, I need to go to a different room.”
Bob: Climb out the window.
Tara: “I need to climb out the window.”
Jim: Yay. (laughs)
Tara: I need to do whatever it is that I need to do so that we can come back and I would say, “I’d be open to have this conversation with you, but not like this.”
Jim: Yeah.
Tara: And, “If every time you come at me like this, I will be backing away. But if we can do this differently, I really want this.” So it’s not a temper tantrum, it’s not punishment. If the attitude is punishment, that’s not a healthy boundary.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tara: This is, “I’m stepping away to be healthy and I’m giving opportunity for us to do this better-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tara: … within healthy parameters.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John: Really good stuff here today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly from Tara Lalonde and Bob Paul. And, uh, they’ve written a terrific book k- called Empowered to Love. And we have copies of that here. Uh, called 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Tara, when your spouse is ready to connect with you emotionally, a tool that you talk about in the book is Heart Talk.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Okay. All the guys just curled up in a ball.
John: (laughs).
Tara: Right.
Jim: What is Heart Talk?
Tara: Heart Talk is very similar to active listening, to be honest with you. And many people have heard of active listening and reflecting back and forth. But what we think is unique about this is the heart component of it. So two roles. You’ve got a speaker and a listener. Sounds obvious, right?
Jim: Yeah.
Tara: Uh-huh. Except that so often listeners are speakers in waiting.
Jim: (laughs) Now you’re killing me.
John: Guilty.
Tara: Right.
Jim: I’m always finishing the sentences. (laughs)
Tara: Yeah. We’re one step ahead of our speaker or we’re trying to think of, “Oh, I got something to respond to that.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tara: You’re not listening.
Jim: I’m trying so hard to change that. Jean just gives me the look when I finish her sentence. Like, “That’s not what I was gonna say. I appreciate your input. Can I finish my sentence now?”
Tara: (laughs) It’s not Choose Your Own Adventure.
Jim: (laughs).
Tara: I’m actually saying this. Yeah. So you’re speaking about emotional content. This isn’t talking about what you did yesterday and all of that. This is about me and how I feel. So it might be helpful to build some emotional vocabulary. We do have some emotion vocabulary lists at the back of the book in one of the appendix ’cause it’s not easy. But then the heart, so the listener lets the speaker’s communication touch the heart. They care about this. When Vince is sharing something with me from the heart, it doesn’t happen all that often with Vince, and it’s gold when it does and everything stops, and I’m listening for what he’s trying to say, and I let it touch me. I don’t have to agree with him. That’s not what Heart Talk is. Heart Talk is, “This is your experience and this is how it impacts you and that matters to me because you matter to me.” And then you reflect it back. So what I’m hearing you say is this. “Am I getting that right?” That’s an important question. “No, that’s what you said.” “No, no. Am I getting it right?” ‘Cause maybe, “Huh? I said that but that’s not what I meant. It’s this.” “Okay. So it’s not that. It’s this?” “Yes.”
Jim: Yeah.
Tara: And that is so powerful. When we feel understood, so many spouses wanna say “Yeah, yeah. I understand what you’re saying. I understand.” I don’t know if you understand, but if you say, “I’m hearing you say, when I did that it made you feel hurt. And like I was talking down to you.” “Oh yeah, you do understand.”
Jim: Yeah, yeah-
Tara: That’s powerful.
Jim: … So often as I’ve heard counselors talk about how to resolve conflict, you know, I’m listening to the way they put the words together. It’s very appropriate. They’ve gone to school to learn how to do this. They sat for hours with couples to learn how to do this. And they’ll say, “You know, when your spouse says this, then the way you need to respond is to say, ‘Honey, I hear what you’re saying. This is how it makes me feel and this is how I’d like to respond.’” It sounds great. The average Joe and Jane, we don’t do it that well. You know what I mean?
Tara: Yeah.
Jim: And e- so how do we practic-
Tara: Normal people don’t talk this way.
Jim: … Exactly. It’s right. When you hear it, it sounds like it’s dripping with honey. That’s exactly how I should be talking to her. But then a week goes by and it’s, “Hey, you really upset me.” (laughs)
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It’s not the wonderful language-
John: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm.
Jim: … of the counselor. How do we, how do we practically move into a direction where we can have these conversations?
Bob: Well, you know, it’s interesting that we, we teach Heart Talk as a way to put like guardrails on your communication vehicle arou- on the road so you keep your communication vehicle out of the ditch. It’s really simple, it’s just some simple rules. But honestly, you follow the rules just until you’ll get good at it, and then you don’t have to think about it anymore because you want to have successful communication with each other. And where we really encourage people to start is talking about using the tool to talk about positive stuff-
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Bob: … not negative stuff, because if you only use hard talk every time a bad thing comes up. When Jean comes to you and says, “Honey, can we have a Heart Talk?” Your immediate reaction is gonna go-
Tara: Ugh.
Bob: … “Oh no, here we go.” But-
Jim: (laughs)
Bob: … there are so many positive things that go unsaid that are taken for granted. And you can practice using that. You know, there’s things that Jenni does every day that thrill me for me to take a moment and say, “Hey, you know, can we have a Heart Talk? You know, when you did this yesterday, I felt so great.” And you know, that’s an easy one. It’s a great way to get good at doing that. So when the tough stuff comes up,-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Bob: … you can have, uh, facility with the skill and just lean into it and it just flows naturally and effortlessly.
Jim: Do you wanna give me a couple of the rules? (laughs)
Tara: Wait, wait, wait. Let me toss in a side note. Bob was talking about putting romance back in and curiosity, using Heart Talk in those positive things. Talk about a way to build-
Jim: All the guys just went, “Okay, now give me me those rules.”
Tara: … Uh, Uh-uh.
Bob: Yes, absolutely. Yes, let’s go.
Tara: This will lead there. Right?
Jim: (laughs) And what, okay, what are some of, just as an example, what are a- a couple of those rules?
Bob: It’s very simple.
Jim: Okay.
Bob: You’ve got a speaker and a listener. This is predicated on this incredibly complex principle of taking turns. Okay.
Jim: Okay.
Bob: Whoa. Let, that’s okay.
Jim: Kind of started in elementary school.
Bob: Yeah, yeah, right. So you have, and the speaker really is just focusing on what’s going on, on with them emotionally caring about their own feelings enough to be willing to share them. And then sharing, using an iMessage when something happened, when this happened, this is what I felt. Okay. That’s easy. The listener needs to be focused on hearing the heart. Okay? And we use the acronym ICU for the steps. It’s very simple. Identify feelings, care about the feelings, seek to touch you and then seek to understand. So, “What I heard you say was this, is this what you were feeling?” And do it tentatively. Let the speaker confirm that you got it, because the communication isn’t complete when you as a listener think you get it, the communication is complete when the speaker thinks you get it.
Jim: Okay. Yeah, that’s good.
John: Mm-hmm.
Bob: Very, and v- very simple. There’s nothing complicated about this. And when we speak effectively to one another, we are actually doing this. We don’t realize we’re doing it.
Jim: We got a couple of minutes. I just want to, e- e- uh, kind of put into cement this idea that you’re on the same team. You talk-
Tara: Yes.
Jim: … about that in the book. Sometimes that’s hard to understand when you’re in the heat of disagreement. But how do you capture that and say, “Wait a minute, we’re on the same team here.” What does that mean to be on the same team?
Bob: Well, first of all, this is a, a rule of relationships, a law of relationships God created. Okay? Marriage is a team sport. Whether you acknowledge it, whether you understand it, whether you recognize it or not, it’s God’s design. And when you’re on the same team, there’s only two possible outcomes. You both win or you both lose. There is no such thing as a win-lose outcome in marriage ever. It’s purely an illusion from the pit of hell. And the enemy wants us to square off his adversaries. He e- uses a divide and conquer strategy.
Jim: That’s one of his-
Bob: Consts- It is one of his-
Jim: … fruits, to divide.
Tara: Yeah.
Bob: Yeah, yeah. He, that’s what he wants to do. And scripture says very clearly, “A house divided cannot stand.” So the second we square off his adversaries, he’s got us, he doesn’t even have to stick around. He can go mess-
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Bob: … with the neighbors. He’s got us covered. So we want to resist that. And we have a no-losers policy at play in our house, ’cause I realized Jenni is my teammate and if Jenni walks away feeling bad about an interaction or I walk away feeling bad about an interaction, our team loses and we are r- refusing to let them continue to have parties in hell at our expense.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Bob: We do not want that. We wanna, we wanna walk away victorious. So we gotta be attentive to the fact that both of us have to feel good about what we’re doing and where we end up or the whole team is lost.
Jim: Mm-hmm. You know, that is perfectly said. And some listeners right here at the end e- are going, “Wow, okay. We’re not nearly where we need to be.” And it’s not a condemnation.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Jim: This isn’t necessarily a grade you score an F. It’s the realization that we’re not living in the fullness of what God has created and what a beautiful picture that is when we do.
Tara: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And it is possible. You’re seeing that at Hope Restored, these couples, maybe not everybody, but many of the couples that go have this lift, spiritually, in their marriage, they understand each other far better. You did a great job recapping that a moment ago, Tara. So what do you say to the woman, the wife, who’s realizing, “Okay, this is touching the need that I’ve been feeling?”
Tara: Yeah. Well, first of all, if you’re willing, get the book. We give all kinds of resources for that wife or that husband.
Jim: Right.
Tara: It doesn’t have to be, both of us have to buy in, to buy the book and get benefit from this. If you both do, you can change your marriage. But say it’s just the wife doing it. Say she’s the only one who’s interested in making this change, in doing this work. Real, real change can happen. In fact, on many levels, that is the marriage that I live in. Vince isn’t interested in using these tools or doing this kind of work. It’s not his wheelhouse. He has other really cool things, but this is not him. And that’s okay, ’cause God didn’t wire him that way. And He’s teaching me to love the man I married, not the one that I wanna make him.
John: Hmm.
Jim: Wow.
Tara: And to love me and know that my God loves me, and He can be the husband, hard truth, He can be the husband that I long for in those deep emotional connection ways until such time, if ever, He sees fit to make those changes in Vince. But I gotta tell you, God is so good and He’s so faithful, and the relationship you can have with the Lord this way, with an open heart to Him, you can feel that intimacy, that fullness you can then love your husband well for God’s well-done, good and faithful servant and it’ll feel good.
Jim: Yeah. What I’m hearing, I mean, that is shalom, that is-
Bob: Mm-hmm, yes.
Jim: … God’s peace for you as a wife.
Bob: It’s so good.
Jim: And that is so good, that contentment, no matter the circumstances. Well, Tara’s honesty was so refreshing and I appreciate her and Bob’s faithful work, uh, with Focus on the Family. They are just two of our dedicated staff working every day to bring families like yours, the resources and support that you need. And one of those resources is Hope Restored. If you’re facing a crisis in your marriage or even if you just need a, uh, probably a more serious marriage tune-up, I hope you’ll consider attending. And John will share how to get, uh, more details about that in a minute. Divorce statistics are still devastating, but the number of marriages being saved by Hope Restored is significant. And with your help, we can keep putting a dent in the divorce rate and making a generational impact for the families that we help together. Especially now at the end of the year, we need your financial support to plan for the next season of ministry. I hope that as you celebrate the holidays coming up, you consider donating to help us give families hope. And when you donate today, your gift will be doubled through a matching campaign. And whatever you give, twice as much will go to the ministry for a limited time. So don’t wait.
John: Yeah. Call us today and make a generous donation as you can. And, uh, we’ll say thank you for being a part of the support team by sending a copy of the book by Tara and Bob, Empowered to Love. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or you can stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And for more of our Best of 2024 shows, we’ve put ’em all together in a Best of 2024 audio collection that you can download. It’s totally free, and details are on the website. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
