Day One:
Levi Lusko: It’s the mathematical representation for a spiral. And it’s tucked within all of nature, a whirlpool galaxy, the- the shell of a snail or, uh, the ram’s horn. The shofar. So there’s order and design. It’s the blueprint of God inside the spiral you find everywhere. And I just think that’s a reminder to those of us who feel like we’re spiraling. You, you’re hearing this today, and you’re just saying, “I’m having the hardest time.” And I just tell you, it’s not random, it’s not chaos, God has a plan. He’s up to something and His fingerprints are all over your life.
John Fuller: That’s Levi Lusko joining us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: You know, John, life is pretty easy, especially as a child. Most children, a normal childhood.
John: I’m glad you put that clarifier on there.
Jim: Yeah. I didn’t have it that way, but I mean, for most kids it should be that way.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Life should be easy. And then you get a little older, take on more responsibility. Maybe you get married, you have children, and man, it just gets really complicated. And sometimes, uh, life can knock you upside the head and, and send you spiraling outta control. And if that sounds like something you’ve experienced or you’re in the middle of, uh, let me remind you, we’re here for you. Focus on the Family would love to talk with you about that moment. We’ve got great resources, we have counselors, and uh, you know, it’s all free. Just get a hold of us and we will help you in that way. Levi Lusko is just the guy to have this discussion. He has been through those storms and come out on the other side, I think in a healthy way. We’ll find out.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah, he’s gonna share what he learned and give you some, uh, tools to navigate those moments in your life when it feels like you’re spiraling down.
John: Mm. Yeah, and Levi is the co-founder and lead pastor of Fresh Life Church, a multi-site ministry located in, uh, Montana, and Wyoming, and Oregon, and Utah.
Jim: All the hot spots.
John: Well, cold spots during the winter, and hot spots, uh, they are, they’re great places. Uh, he’s married to Jennie and they have five children. And Levi is an author. He’s written, uh, a number of books. And the one we’re talking about today is called Blessed Are the Spiraling: How the Chaotic Search for Significance Can Lead to Joy Through Life’s Shifting Seasons. Uh, look for details about Levi and this terrific resource online at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Levi, it’s great to have you back to Focus here. Thanks for coming.
Levi: Thanks for having me. Such an honor.
Jim: I know you’re speaking tonight to a youth group, which I think is awesome. Maybe I should pop down there.
Levi: Come on down.
Jim: What time does it start?
John: You got a good heart.
Levi: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Jim: Hey, uh, yeah, as a pastor, I’m sure you feel the urge, or maybe not feel it, but you have to always put your spiritual self forward, and sometimes you don’t feel like it or you don’t have it. You know, things, life as much of a load for a pastor as it is anybody else.
Levi: Yeah.
Jim: There’s gotta be those moments where you’re feeling a bit like you’re faking it, maybe? It’s not really there, but I gotta go out and I gotta do it. Um, tell me about that sensation, that feeling, and, and we’ll get into more of your story in a minute.
Levi: I think there’s healthy compartmentalization and unhealthy compartmentalization. Um, I’ve always believed that as a, as a leader, you need to heal your wounds, but share your scars. Uh, where you have a healed scar, you can share it and, and show people like, “Hey, I, I got, God brought me through this by His grace, and He can do the same for you.” So it’s like Jesus showed the scars to the disciples, and it gave them joy and confidence. Um, but what you wanna do when you have an unhealed wound that’s festering, is you want to see it treated. You know? So the way, as a leader, I share my scars is I, I tell my church with an honest level of vulnerability, “Here’s what I’ve been through. I’ve seen healing in it, and God can heal you too.” But where there’s an unhealthy untreated wound, you want to go to leadership in your life, counseling, and get the right help to get that thing treated. You know, so for example, I wouldn’t get up and be like, “Hey, church, Jennie and I have really been fighting, I don’t know if we’re gonna make it. But open your Bibles to”-
Jim: (laughs).
Levi: You know what I mean? That’s an unhealth… Like if I, if I’m at a place of unhealth, I want to go to my board of directors, I wanna go to pastoral friends, I wanna go to my counselor and get that wound treated, and then when I’m seeing it healing, to be vulnerable. So that’s healthy compartmentalization.
Jim: Right.
Levi: Unhealthy compartmentalization would be where you’re just faking fine, and playing hurt, and pretending everything’s okay, and putting a nice face on a ugly thing. And, and I, I think in leadership it’s, it’s, it’s a, a attention to manage to walk the line between those two.
Jim: It is. And I think one of the things I’ve observed is this, um, desire that we have, I think born out of our flesh, to put a facade forward. Like we expect ourselves to be perfect, and we’re not. It’s such an unhealthy thing for Christian leadership, particularly because people learn outta that vulnerability, and they can attach to it, ’cause they’re struggling in many of the same ways.
Levi: Without a doubt. And, and I’ve found, like C.S. Lewis said, “If you learn how to minister to hurting people, you’ll never be without an audience.”
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: So, opening up about my daughter’s death, or telling my church honestly, as I did a few weeks ago on a Sunday, “I’m really struggling still with my dad’s death.” And I, the grief journey has been challenging. And I’m still to this like, present day I’ll go to call him, I’ll go to text him, I’ll be like, “Oh, I can’t wait to tell dad about that.” And then I’ll re-remember. And so I’m honest with them about that. That’s a wound that’s being healed in process.
Jim: Yeah, no, I get that. The midlife crisis, and this is really the core of what you wrote about. Um, I don’t know that I really experienced that, so I’m really interested. I may even identify some of those things through talking with you today and next time. But let’s describe that, what, you’re 38 at the time, or?
Levi: Yeah, well the data is that one out of three people will experience a later life crisis.
Jim: So that’s my, that’s my future (laughs).
John: (laughs).
Levi: Uh, one out of, one out of four a midlife crisis. But here’s the interesting one. Um, three out of four are, are now on data, uh, that shows experiencing what they call an early life crisis.
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: Can happen as early as 18.
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: Which is 25% of 72, which worldwide is life expectancy on the planet.
Jim: And you’re saying three out of four?
Levi: Three outta four-
Jim: Wow.
Levi: … for, for a, uh, or early life crisis. The point is, just about everybody’s gonna experience some sort of a challenging transition at some point, whether it’s 18, 40, 55 or 60. Um, for me was, I started having panic attacks at bedtime.
Jim: Wow, that, I read that. It’s just amazing.
Levi: And it came outta nowhere. It was like a switch being flipped. It just started like my heart racing 180 beats per minute, my hand sweating. And I wasn’t self-aware enough to go, “Oh yeah, this is midlife crisis.” I just was like so confused and felt so outta control.
Jim: In your faith journey at that point, I mean, you’re a pastor, what was going on? It’s like, “Lord, what is happening to me?”
Levi: I grabbed my Bible, I opened to Ephesians, that wasn’t helping. I turned on a sermon from my, my good mentor and friend Louie Giglio, and that wasn’t helping. I’m like, oh my gosh, if Louie Giglio and Ephesians can’t help me, I’m in, this is gonna be bad.
John: (laughs).
Levi: I woke my wife up and asked her to pray with me, and we got through that evening. Next morning called my doctor, called my counselor, and, and called the spiritual authority in my life. And, and I will, I will not say it’s quick and easy, it was a multiple year-long journey from that moment forward of digging up. But, you know, it’s a lot of decisions stacked together to get you into problems, and it, it’s just unfortunately the same way out.
Jim: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, I was looking with the title of the book, Blessed Are the Spiraling. It reminds me of one of my favorite verses where it talks about God being close to the broken-hearted, and saving those crushed in spirit. That’s another way to say that. When you’re in that process of crushing, it feels like a downward spiral, but you’re encouraging us to think of the upward spiral. So, I mean, most of us are just thinking about the downward spiral.
Levi: Yeah.
Jim: What does it mean to have an upward spiral?
Levi: Everybody talks about, “I’m spiraling down, going down, going down.”
Jim: Because that’s what it feels like.
Levi: Yeah, it does feel that way. But if the Beatitudes are true, according to Matthew 5, then when we’re poor in spirit, when we’re persecuted, when we’re having a hard time, or just put it in up… To modernize Jesus’ language, if we’re spiraling, the truth is we’re blessed because it’s in those difficult times we’re more capable of leaning into God, of Him being near to us. None of us learn and grow from our good days. We learn and grow from the hard times. And that’s why James says, “Rejoice when you fall into various trials.” Now, I don’t ever get into a trial and think, “Yay,” but in those moments we should, because we’re about to experience God in a way that we can’t in the sunshine.
Jim: Does there, is there a connection with Paul who is sitting in prison and writes about being content in all ways, and singing songs while sitting in a dungeon?
Levi: I would think so. I mean, Paul said in Romans 8, “I don’t consider the sufferings of this present life even worthy to be compared to the glory to be revealed in us.” So apparently there’s something that God wants to do, there’s some unique way that we can experience His presence and His shining face that shines down on us in those hard times. And maybe it’s because when things are going good, it’s all too easy for us to trust in our own resources, take our eyes off of Him. And so we should in, in the spiraling moments of life, think, okay, I’m about to experience God’s blessing, and I need it.
Jim: Yeah. And it, yeah, it is so good to come out of the valley, but it, you know, if we’re mature as Christians, we’ve gotta recognize what we benefit from being in the valley.
Levi: Yeah. Job said, “I’m gonna come forth as gold.” It’s a purifying process, but it takes going into the fire. But to your point, if we can spiral down, why can’t we spiral up?
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: Because I believe each wall we run into, which is how it feels when we’re spiraling, we’ve ran into a wall. We were just going and all of a sudden, bam, and our nose is bleeding. Um, that, that’s actually the front of a stair step, and we can be developed. My counselor taught me to look at it that way. When I hit a wall it’s a developmental shift, it’s a stair step, and if we keep taking enough of those stairs as we go spiraling our way, we’re gonna go up and in, further and, and closer to Jesus.
Jim: You know, let me ask you this, because people are listening that are hitting that wall, but it’s feeling impossible to spiral up. They’re like scratching their heads right now feeling like, how do you spiral up? You don’t know what I’m in. And I guess the question right here would be for that person, what do you say?
Levi: Yeah. Well, I think you first of all have to speak in faith and believe, “I’m being developed. I’m not alone.” God said, I’ll never leave you never forsake you.” “And if I’ve hit a wall, I hit a wall with Jesus. And if I, if I’m in Christ”-
Jim: That’s good.
Levi: … “then I couldn’t have got to that wall without being in Christ. So now God, I believe you have a plan. I believe you’re trying to teach me something. What God”… Not, not, how do I get out of this? That’s the question we want to ask. “But Lord, what do you want me to know? How do you want me to grow? And what mistakes maybe got me into this?” Because we’re all able to be complicit in our own suffering if we’re honest for a moment, right. We’re all capable of being our own worst enemy. So for me, part of the process was saying, “Hey, um, was it God that got me here or me?” And of course it’s complex, right? Was it the enemy, was it God, was it me? It’s all some sort of a, a Venn diagram perhaps of, of all of the above. Uh, but for me, I had been running at a pretty hard pace for my 20s and my 30s.
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: And so there was a lot of death by a thousand paper cuts type of a thing. I mean, I went to South Africa twice for the weekend in that period.
Jim: Oh, my.
Levi: Wrote eight books, we launched, uh, 10 different churches. I mean, we were doing a lot. And flew a couple million miles with Delta Airlines, I mean, there was just so much going on. And I think part of it was, you know, the body does keep score. And there was some unprocessed, um, trauma in my life from my childhood. I, I had, we had had a daughter die, and I’d gone through lots of counseling for that specific issue, but I had really neglected to appreciate the magnitude of some of the, um, ways that my parents divorce impacted me. And if you would’ve asked me through all through my 20s and 30s and 40s, uh, how, or 20s and 30s rather. “How did your parents divorce affect you?” I’d have gone, “Oh, it really didn’t. God was good, but it was hard.”
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: But in counseling through, uh, through a lot of conversation really began to realize there was some ways that shaped me I didn’t really understand.
Jim: The onion peeling, basically. Let me ask you, on the lighter side, you had an analogy in the book about your daughter losing a tooth (laughs). What, how did… This is being observant really, so how did that story impact you in a spiritual way?
Levi: Well, this is part of the boys and girls are different conversation. Uh, I had a son lose it, my son lost a tooth and, and with blood dripping down his chin, he held it into the air and said “Puberty, puberty, puberty.” Because he was excited.
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: My daughter was terrified. “What? My tooth fell outta my mouth.” And then we explained puberty to her and she said, “I don’t want to do that.”
Jim: Right.
Levi: And she’s, you know, declared war on puberty and vowed to stop it at all costs. The point is that we all have different reactions to development, but a midlife crisis or any early or later life crisis is really another developmental puberty. And it can be scary to change, ’cause change is scary for all of us. Empty nest, we have a daughter in college now, that’s scary. Uh, but that’s just God developing you to a next level.
Jim: Yeah. You know, a moment ago when you said you may ask the how of somebody hitting the wall, some of us will say, “Why? Why, Lord did you let me hit this wall?” And now it becomes this issue between you and God. And some people even develop bitterness. They may even walk away from the Lord. Or think that they are, and the Lord’s gonna continue to walk with you, in my opinion.
Levi: Yeah.
Jim: But that why question could be a deep one for people. Did you battle with that?
Levi: Yeah. Well, you know, I, I think that was not really a pressing issue for me. I, I’ve always tried, imperfectly, but as I read scripture to assume positive intent on God.
Jim: Mm.
Levi: You know, like when Home Depot gives a manual on the chainsaw, I don’t grab the manual and go, “Oh, they don’t want me to have any fun.”
Jim: (laughs).
Levi: No, they, they have, they want me to not chop my fingers off, you know?
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: Um, and so when God tells me to do something or leads me in a certain way, I, I generally tend based on his track record, sending His Son to die for me on the cross. “How shall he who did not spare his son, but gave him to us,” not freely give us all things. So I believe God has good plans for me. And I think when we start there and then we get into a pickle, we can assume He has something He’s trying to teach me here.
Jim: Yeah. You mentioned John the Baptist in his spiral. Tell me about that.
Levi: I mean, this guy baptized his own cousin as Messiah in fulfillment of God’s prophetic timetable, and then ends up in prison and it’s about to get decapitated. And his last correspondence from death row is to say, “Jesus, are you the Messiah or should, did I make a mistake?”
Jim: Hmm.
Levi: Talk about spiraling. Did I make a mistake-
Jim: Right.
Levi: … anointing you as the Messiah? And Jesus basically does not dis John, He compliments John, calls him the greatest born among women. That’s a big compliment.
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: And I think He’s trying to develop John. He says, “Blessed is he who’s not offended. On behalf of me, tell him that the blind see and the deaf hear.” And He encourages John to take a step of trust in his spiraling.
Jim: Yeah. You know, the resurrection of Jesus shows that what we think is an end can be a new beginning. And you relate that to what Jean and I, my wife Jean, it’s one of the favorite movies we have, A Million Miles Away about, uh, Jose Hernandez. Speak to that story, how that connected for you.
Levi: It’s unbelievable how many rejection letters this guy got.
Jim: Oh, 27, 35, some number like that.
Levi: I think it was the 12th time he applied, he got accepted.
Jim: Yeah, it was huge.
Levi: And it’s multiple years between-
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: … rounds of, of, of that. So I mean literally like 20 years, but 12 different rounds. And born from a migrant family, he as a young child said, “I want to be an astronaut.” And he, he fought for it. And a lot of us would give up and walk away if we hit the wall 12 times. But he didn’t. He just kept developing himself. He in fact, uh, developed the MRI machine… Or the machine that helps detect, uh, breast cancer in women during that time. And, and so maybe it was for that reason he got the no’s because God wanted to save lives with the technology he would invent between now and then. And he never grew bitter, never gave up on it, and I think for us, the question is will we get bitter and get mad and yes, get angry at God and run off? Or we gonna say, “God, I’m gonna trust you. You have a plan. This is hard and messy.” And we can be honest with Him, but then say, “Though you slay me, I’m gonna follow you,” like Job did.
Jim: One of the best parts in the movie was the depiction of the teacher who believed in him, his elementary school teacher. And she-
Levi: And she got to come to the launch, right?
Jim: … to the launch. I mean, that was like the best part of the story, was just what a teacher did to encourage him to move from the fields picking fruit, to being an astronaut. That is amazing.
Levi: And she kind of challenged his parents to prioritize his education-
Jim: Right.
Levi: … which is really cool.
Jim: Yeah.
John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guest today is Levi Lusko. We’re talking about his book, Blessed Are the Spiraling. And we have copies of that book here. Uh, stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. And Levi, uh, in terms of those kind of closed doors, some people get just overwhelmed by the waves of no or disappointment in life, and kind of live there. But you talked about Tiger Woods and some lesson that you thought was appropriate for us. I liked the illustration, I thought it was really good.
Levi: Yeah. He had a rule where after he had a bad shot, he would only allow himself to be sad about it for a few seconds. You know, he would, but he, but he would allow himself to feel sad about it, but then it would be, Etch a Sketch would be wiped, and he would be onto the next shot.
John: Yeah.
Levi: So it’s almost like you’re having a little pity party for a few moments. Alright. And then maybe you need to go get yourself a Frappuccino or whatever. But then, okay, now we’re done with that.
John: Yeah.
Levi: And we’re gonna onto the next thing.
John: Yeah, I think you called, he referred to it as the 10-step rule or something like that?
Levi: 10-step rule, ’cause it was as long as it took for him to take 10 steps of sadness. And he would just beat himself up, but only for 10 steps.
John: I really like that.
Levi: Then on to the next thing.
Jim: I’ve got that in golf, I call it the 150-step rule, but you know, whatever works for you.
Levi: Or the 10-day rule, whatever, yeah. I’ve had tennis matches like that.
Jim: The terrible golf, it is.
Levi: But it really is, it comes down to mindset, you know?
Jim: Yeah, that’s the thing. Move on.
Levi: And if you allow that to pull you down, you know, your negative thoughts can’t lead to that positive life you want. And, and mind really does matter. You know, not that it’s like everything in the world is just think positive, but the Bible does talk a lot about how we think and how that impacts our life like a rudder.
Jim: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s so true. That leads to a great, big question. This is the golden nugget question. What is the ultimate goal in life? That’s huge.
Levi: Yeah. Well, a lot of us think it’s just better, and bigger, and more, you know? And if it’s ministry, then it’s more people come to the church, and more people listen to the message, and more people get saved. And, and that surely is part of the great commission, but if we define it that way, then we’re, we’re guaranteeing failure as we get more and more towards the grave. Because you can’t keep everything up into the right forever in sales, or in ministry, or in, or in any performance. So if that’s the goal, then God’s calling us to do something we can’t do once we’re in a wheelchair or in declining years.
Jim: Hmm.
Levi: So the goal, of course, would be Christlikeness, that we become more like Him, and faithful to what He’s called us to do in that season. And if that’s true, there’s a glory to our declining years just as there are to when we’re in our prime.
Jim: Hmm.
Levi: And we tend in our culture that’s so human-thinking and so, you know, just about this life, to focus on only the flower of life when we’re, when we’re young and our, our, our hair is not gray yet, and we are at the prime of our life. But God has a plan for every season, retirement, post-retirement, that we become like Him. And if that’s true, then there’s a glory to even our deathbed that God can be honored in how we approach all of that.
Jim: Yeah. And it’s so good. I mean, my 24-year-old is going, “I feel over the hill.” What? He’s going, “Well, 20’s kind of your prime.” (laughs) I’m going, “Oh my gosh.” I’m like passed that by a long way.
Levi: This is early life crisis.
Jim: Yeah, that’s an early life crisis. You know, Jesus shared a parable about a man who found treasure in a field. You mentioned this in the book. What can we take away from that?
Levi: That’s the real organizing metaphor of the book is this man who found a treasure, sold all he had to buy the field to get the treasure. My favorite part about that is the neglected first word. Jesus says, “again, the kingdom of heaven is like a man. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a man.” I always thought it was a, a parable of salvation.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Levi: You discover Jesus, you give your whole life to Him and get, you walk away with a treasure. But what I discovered is you have to keep going back and, ’cause you accumulate new things in your hands.
Jim: Uh-huh.
Levi: And even as a servant of God, we do things and God blesses us for those things we do. He doesn’t have to, He’s so good, He does. And now all of a sudden, I, I have some things in my hands. I get to be a leader, I get to be a pastor, I get to be an author, I get to be here with you guys today. It’s a platform, it’s, it’s an honor. I don’t deserve it, but, but God’s so kind. Well, well, that can easily get comfortable in your hands. Oh, I’m, I’m a conference speaker, you know, and in my midlife crisis moment, I, I spiraled into a realization of, I got to be a pastor in my 20s, and I was always the young pastor. And now that’s being tampered with because I’m not old, but I’m not young. I’m, I’m the middle-aged pastor. And so I, what I had to do again, was to go back to the field and sell everything, say, “It’s all yours, God, if you never do anything through me again, if I don’t speak on any stages, if I’m not on radio programs, if I don’t get to write books, I just want you, you are the treasure. Not what you do for me or through me.”
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: “You.”
Jim: That’s really good. You know, you mention in the book, how to prepare for these spirals. So what do you do, especially if you’re in a good place and you’re feeling like you’re, you are going up and then all of a sudden, boom, you hit something. How do you prepare for that?
Levi: Well, I think the most important thing all of us can do that’s just extremely practical, is to not base our identity on anything that’s vulnerable. Any position, any possession, anything on this earth is very vulnerable.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Levi: It can take one stroke, one text message, one natural disaster, and, and one… Or one mistake you make, and that can be taken from you. So if your identity is based on anything on this earth, uh, that’s danger territory. But if it’s simply that you’re a son of the King, loved by God, headed to heaven, and the king’s gonna give you some assignments, well guess what? That can handle any situation in life that gets thrown at it.
Jim: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Levi: And then the second thing I would say is do your work to connect the dots on, on any behavior that’s, you know, informing your shadow side or kind of the, the parts of you that, that tend to slip out when your flesh is taking control-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Levi: … and do the hard work it takes to connect those dots and understand how you became the way you did, why you’re drawn to what sins you’re drawn to, uh, so that you can better keep in control and, and follow Jesus.
John: That requires a level of introspection, doesn’t it?
Levi: I think so. And I think help. Community, counseling, uh, depending on what you discover is there, it may need more to help unpack it.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Levi: But when you keep the sunshine shining on it, nothing unhealthy can really grow in that.
Jim: Mm-hmm. You know, anybody that’s been through a transition of any sort, there’s the obvious story in the Bible about King David and King Saul and the conflict they had, and that transition of their own, and how many lessons are in that. Um, what do you pull out of that in terms of their spiral?
Levi: Yeah.
Jim: Uh, because both had spirals down.
Levi: Sure. Well, King Saul to me, is the classic example of a midlife crisis gone wrong. You know, he’s obviously wanting to hang on to youth, and his power, and him being at the prime, he likes being king, but God’s got David around. And, and all of a sudden people start singing, “Saul has slain his thousands, but David is tens of thousands,” and Saul can’t handle that. Now, he should go, “Hey, I’m King, David works for me. Those are my victories too,” And celebrate David’s victories. But instead he tries to destroy David and tries to take him out and sabotage his success, and he just becomes this caricature of the worst parts of himself, and in the end, it destroys him. And people he loved get hurt in the process, Jonathan and, and others. So I think the better example in the, in the spiraling of, “I feel this way is to be honest,” admit that’s hard, but then try and embrace that, you know what? I, everything that I helped David do is a win for the kingdom and, and ultimately a win for me as well.
Jim: Hmm. You know, it’s interesting, David, the character of David. He’s one of the, the people I’d love to run toward in heaven to ask him questions, because obviously God Himself said He had a heart for me, even though he committed the big ones, right, adultery and murder. But there was something in his heart. I think that something was humility, which you think of a king, that’s hard for a king to possess. But I think at the core that may be why God said that, because that’s God’s character.
Levi: And doesn’t it take humility to take as much or more joy in the accomplishments of someone else than yourself? And I think that’s the thing. I think we’re afraid we won’t have value if we don’t get to keep operating at the level we are comfortable operating in. But if we have the humility to say, “Hey, if you, if you want me to decrease so that you can increase.” That was John the Baptist? He’s, “I don’t care what part I get to play.” Think about how at the beginning, his crowds were huge, but then everyone followed Jesus and he’s like, “Hey, come on. That’s what I want to happen.”
John: Mm-hmm .
Jim: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
Jim: There’s a perfect place to end. But, uh, let me ask you on the final question. That person that’s been listening and they’re going, “Wow, okay, this is really helpful. I feel like I’m in that downward spiral.” Um, they’re grasping for some kind of control as they’re falling, obviously. Uh, what would you say to them to encourage them today as they’re hearing this or watching it on YouTube?
Levi: It’s been said that there are three seasons of life. The first season is you’re building a container. The second season you get to choose what goes in the container. And the third season is you have to give the container and its contents away. And most of the despair, I think, in the transitional moments of life, comes from failure to appreciate and properly respond to the season of life you’re in.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Levi: So you’re trying to get a bigger container, more houses, get the company bigger, but you have nothing in your container. You don’t have relationships that are fulfilling. Um, you perhaps are in season two and you’re not realizing that you need to, to begin to prepare for that third season of giving it all away. 72% of Americans don’t have a will. Think about that.
Jim: Hmm.
Levi: So there’s no preparation and planning for the only actual certainty in this life. So today ask God, what season am I in, and how do I need to respond?
Jim: That’s really good and that’s a perfect place for us to pick up next time. If you can hang out a little while and, uh, we’ll come back and do another day’s program, and I think those are the things we want to get into is how to recognize where you’re at, and what you gotta do to be healthier, which is really good. It’s been great.
Levi: Thank you so much.
Jim: Levi, always is so good to be with you.
Levi: I’m in it, let’s keep talking, yeah.
Jim: It flies by.
John: Yeah.
Jim: So, and thanks for all the preparation and life learnings that you’re able to articulate so well. You’re a terrific communicator, and that’s obviously something God’s given you as a gift.
Levi: You too kind. Thank you.
Jim: No, it’s true.
Levi: Thank you.
Jim: But, uh, listen, if you’re there, wherever there may be, whatever we’ve talked about today, and you’re going, “They’re talking about me.” Get ahold of us. I mean, we’re here to help you. You know, that’s what the donor community does. The folks support us to the extent we can have free counselors here for you, you can call us and they’ll schedule a time for you to talk with them. We have a mound of resources here to help you. That’s, that’s the hidden secret of Focus. We are just a resource center, and we wanna be there for you. We want to help you in this journey with the Lord, uh, to make you as healthy as you can be so you can touch others. That’s the goal. Get healthy yourself and then be able to reach out to somebody who’s hurting around you. And there are plenty of people spiraling down and, uh, all you need to do is give us a call to get that started.
John: Yeah. We’re just a phone call away. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Uh, donate generously. When you get in touch, we’ll send the book to you as our way of saying thanks for being a part of the support team. And again, the title of that book is Blessed Are the Spiraling. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we continue the conversation with Levi Lusko and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
Levi Lusko: Everybody talks about, “I’m spiraling down, going down, going down.”
Jim Daly: Because that’s what it feels like.
Levi: Yeah. It does feel that way. But if we’re spiraling, the truth is we’re blessed because it’s in those difficult times we’re more capable of leaning into God, of Him being near to us. None of us learn and grow from our good days. We learn and grow from the hard times. And that’s why James says rejoice when you fall into various trials. Now I don’t ever get into a trial and think, “Yay.” But in those moments, we should, because we’re about to experience God in a way that we can’t in the sunshine.
John Fuller: That’s Levi Lusko joining us again today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. He’ll offer hope for you in the midst of life struggles. Thanks for being here. I’m John Fuller.
Jim: You know, John, that’s a big promise you just made.
John: Hmm.
Jim: He’ll offer hope for you in life struggles. And I think last time listening to Levi, it’s exactly right.
John: Hmm.
Jim: Um, he is so good at kind of reducing life to what’s essential? What’s core? What do you really here to learn? And, uh, if you missed the program last time, get it at the website, get the app, because it was really insightful and pithy. I mean, that’s the, he just gives it to you, so in such bite-sized forms.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Which I need-
John: Hmm.
Jim: … and I love. So today I am looking forward to continuing that conversation. Uh, last time was about spiraling down, but really see it as an opportunity to spiral up.
John: Hmm.
Jim: And, uh, the Lord is with you wherever you’re at, at the bottom at the top. And, uh, the reminder that we learn so much when we’re in the valley.
John: Yeah.
Jim: It’s hard for us as Christians to embrace that ’cause we wanna live at the top. That’s part flesh and part joy. But God teaches us so much more in the valley.
John: Mm-hmm. And if you’re going through a valley right now, uh, we’re just a phone call or click away. Uh, we’ve got caring Christian counselors and resources for you. The details to get in touch with us are at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And Levi Lusko is the co-founder and lead pastor of Fresh Life Church. They’ve got locations in, uh, Montana, Wyoming, Oregon, and Utah. Uh, Levi and Jennie, his wife, are popular speakers. They have five children. And, uh, among the books he’s written is one that we’re talking about today. It’s called Blessed Are the Spiraling.
Jim: Levi, welcome back.
Levi: Thank you, gentlemen.
Jim: It’s so good to have you. Um, let’s start off today for those that didn’t hear last time, and hopefully again they’ll go back and catch that, but you hit this midlife crisis at 38. That wasn’t that long ago. And, uh, you know, some people, like I said, I don’t feel like I’ve hit that moment yet, but all of us will hit something that will drive us in that direction. Describe that for those who didn’t hear it last time and just how you reacted to it.
Levi: Yeah. At 38, which was almost five years ago now, I began to have panic attacks at night. I also, um, was struggling with apathy, which I had never really been, um, something in my life. I’ve always had forward vision and here’s the next 10 things and I was just-
Jim: Yeah. I would say the word go-getter fits you pretty well.
Levi: And I, and I in that period hit this slump of I just, I didn’t have the same motivation. I, I didn’t know if I was going to continue on in the, the role I was in at my church. And thankfully, with a lot of help and a lot of care, I look back on that as a really great time of development. Painful, but wonderful. And I, I just laugh because, um, we don’t know what we need. We know what we want and what we want is usually not gonna help us. They did a study where they asked, uh, people who won the lottery, or is your life better on the back end of this? And almost without question, most people who go through the lottery, does not help their life and happiness and marriages and-
Jim: Think of that.
Levi: … and choices. But most people who survive cancer come on the back end and saying, “I, I have greater joy. I have a greater appreciation of life.” And, and, and so it’s like, “Would you rather have cancer or would you rather win the lottery?”
Jim: Wow.
Levi: Definitely something to think about because we don’t know what we actually will emerge from a better version of us.
Jim: You know, let me ask this tough question theologically, you are a pastor. It seems like some in the Christian community wanna construct this sense that when you’re being blessed, when all things are going well, you’re actually at the top of the heap. You’re in your upward spiral. And I guess that’s a fair feeling when things are going easy, you feel like the Lord’s got your back and things are going well, and the job is going well, and the family’s doing well. But what you’re saying is, no, that may be a false sense of footing.
Levi: My pastor growing up had a plaque on his desk that said, “God, never, please, never prosper me above my ability to maintain my love for you.”
John: Mm-hmm.
Levi: And I think perhaps it’s easy when so much, when goods increase our heart can set on the goods.
John: Hmm.
Levi: You know, it can become an idol. And I think sometimes in the difficulties, if we turn into God and not run from Him, uh, we can actually grow. Now I’m not saying we should seek out, there should be masochism. Hopefully, like Paul, we can say, “I can learn to either have abundance or not have. I, I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength.” And the way we get safe to be blessed is we keep just our eyes on Jesus.
Jim: What would you say were the two or three things that you learned out of your midlife crisis?
Levi: Yeah. Among them would be, um, a light touch, to keep my identity just on Jesus. And then to connect the dots and to deal with and treat previously undiagnosed trauma in my life that was, was shaping me.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Levi: I think as long as things are undiagnosed properly, they’ll go mistreated, mis- you know, we’ll numb them. We’ll, we’ll, you know, just sort of ru- run from them or we’ll pretend like they’re not there and shove it down and then it’s a big explosion like Mentos and Diet Coke down the road. (laughs)
Jim: Is there a line you don’t want to cross with that, where you’re, you know, you want a healthy sense of truth, you know? And we learned so much in our family of origin as children, um, you know, especially if we had dysfunctional parents that left their mark on us. I, I’m just thinking of some people that that’s where they live then. They’re peeling that onion-
John: Hmm.
Jim: … way down. And I, I think my sense is, although I could be wrong, it feels like you could be almost, uh, captivated-
Levi: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … by peeling that onion.
Levi: Sure. I think the journey, uh, not being the goal is the point there. Right? Uh, it’s a tool in God’s hands. That He can use biblical counseling in community, I think is a, is a massive, and I think the church has done historically a pretty bad job of, of honoring and dignifying that.
Jim: Hmm.
Levi: The church culture I grew up in, counseling was a synonym for like, you know, worldliness, you know?
Jim: Correct.
Levi: It was like, “Oh, that’s totally not trusting in God.” Um, and the, the goal would be that we no longer have our trauma as our template, but God’s truth is our template. So we don’t… The goal isn’t where it’s like, “Well, my anxiety won’t let me, so I’m not doing any of these things.” And, and then that becomes like how we see ourselves and we almost can be left in a perpetual victim mentality, like you said. Uh, but as, uh, as an end, not as an end unto itself, but as a tool to get us to Christ-likeness.
Jim: Yeah. That is really good.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I so appreciate that. Uh, you, uh, this is funny ’cause, uh, a hero of yours, Martin Smith, who’s a British rock band guy, I think you, you really liked him and you would listen and you had a chance to meet with him. But what was that like for you to meet this guy (laughs) and why did you connect with him?
Levi: Well, it was so interesting because at the height of his success, I mean, they were like the Christian U2 back in the day, you know?
Jim: Right.
John: This is delirious?
Levi: Delirious.
John: Yeah.
Levi: And he, at the top of his influence and fame walked away from it all. And ne- we never really heard from him anymore for a long time. And he recently has emerged and we got to talk for a little while, and he basically said, um, it was for his family. You know, he, raising his family in, in arena tours just was not what, uh, he wanted his kids’ lives to be like. He wanted them to, you know, he wanted to be dedicated and present. And, and I, and I look at him now and he’s more sought after now as a, as a mentor to young worship leaders and musicians. He’s spoken up almost with hushed tones, like, “Oh my gosh, Martin Smith.” And it’s so funny because it’s the exact opposite of what we all fear. If I, um, am out of sight, I’ll be out of mind. I’m gonna be irrelevant if I’m long on the tooth. But he has more wisdom to share, not less, because he prioritized the right things. And so I think it gave me a great comfort with the idea of, you know, for a lot of us, I think especially with the energy of youth and, and social media has just poured gas on the fire, that we feel like we need to maintain this illusion of, of, of hustling towards a platform and on our grind to be successful and influential and be known. And the idea is in God’s hands being hidden, being, being buried is how a seed gets to be grown. And so just following God, what He wants you to do, and letting Him take care of the rest.
Jim: Yeah. That’s cool. I, I was thinking I had a chance to play golf with Alice Cooper. Uh, he’s like a six handicap-
John: (laughs).
Jim: … but the, the more impressive part of Alice Cooper is years ago, you know, he was drinking way too much and he was vomiting blood backstage. And his wife just said to him, “Hey, this isn’t gonna make it.” And he became a Christian. His dad was a pastor, and then he was thinking about his career and what he needed to do. And he said to a friend who was a pastor, he said, “You know, I guess I gotta give this up.” And the pastor said, “I don’t think God would’ve given you that platform just to walk away. Why don’t you use your influence to talk to people about the Lord?”
John: Hmm.
Jim: So he’s got a vibrant ministry, and I’m not gonna share those details backstage stuff, but the people that he’s reaching for the Lord, our names we would all know.
John: Hmm.
Jim: And it’s awesome to see a believer like that stay in his groove, but be there for light.
Levi: Yeah. And I think that’s the thing. I, I don’t think the, the application for Martin’s story is to do exactly what he did and we all have to walk away from our jobs. I think it’s to learn how he thought. He thought, “I want to follow God and be faithful.” And even though he said to me, “I was afraid of not being seen, not being in the stage anymore, in the center of attention anymore, um, but those parts of me died. I had to die daily to pick up my cross and follow you.” So the goal is for all of us to be willing to follow Jesus, even if it’s into obscurity.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah. You have a story in your book about being in San Diego. I lived down there for a couple of years, and, uh, went to Balboa Park every night to play tennis. I was, it, and you say-
Levi: It sounds like my fascination of heaven. (laughing)
Jim: And you say to yourself, “I never wanna leave this place, Lord, this is like heaven.” And obviously, I left there after a couple years but what happened to you in San Diego? (laughs) How did God reach you?
Levi: Well, I was on this run on Coronado Island, and I was looking at all these mansions and back home, it was 20 below zero in Montana.
Jim: (laughs).
Levi: And so as I was on this run looking at these mansions, and in 77 degree perfection, I thought to myself, “Man-
Jim: Hmm.
Levi: … uh, it would be really difficult to leave this if you had this, to leave this, and not…” I don’t just mean to leave to go to work.
Jim: Exactly.
Levi: I mean, to leave to go to heaven.
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: You, you would wanna hold onto it. And of course, you don’t just have to live in San Diego to have a tight grip on the things of this world. But I think the lesson is for all of us to realize like, “This is not our home. Being comfortable here and having perfection here, it was never the idea because the Bible says we were born naked and we’re gonna leave naked.”
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: So we need to learn to have a light touch.
John: Yeah. There were some, uh, examples of biblical ownership, if you will, that uh, became stewardship for God. Joseph, who gave his tomb for Jesus’ body to be buried. Who else comes to mind in terms of stuff?
Levi: Well, so many. I mean, Joanna, the wife of Chuza, the steward of Herod, she supported Jesus with her means. Means that she pulled from Herod’s paychecks, which is pretty cool because Herod killed Jesus’ cousin John the Baptist, and was cruel to Jesus as well. And so what sort of Holy Ghost sabotage is that, that she was taking that money and funneling it towards Jesus’ ministry.
John: Hmm.
Levi: But similarly, as you mentioned, Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, they financially supported Jesus’ embalmment and burial. Um, you also have examples like the, the widow, uh, or the, the couple that would build a house extension on for Elisha the prophet to stay in-
John: Hmm.
Levi: … when he was passing through. And, and there’s so many others who biblically speaking, have had a lot, have had San Diego mansion type money, but have not let it get into their heart. Money in your hands ain’t the problem.
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: Money in your heart is.
Jim: Yeah.
John: And, and I would, I would guess, and I know where you’re gonna go with this, I think, that a lack of money doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be generous.
Levi: Very good. I think it, we all think that idolatry and greed is only something that happens to wealthy people.
John: Somebody else.
Levi: But the Bible says that the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. And you don’t have to have money to love money. And the way for all of us to not let money become idolatry is generosity. It stabs a heart through greed that’s trying to strangle you.
John: Hmm.
Jim: Yeah. I think, uh, of Priscilla. So she had this license from the Roman Empire to sell purple garments, which she-
Levi: Lydia.
Jim: Or was it Lydia or-
Levi: Lydia, the seller of purple from Thyatira.
Jim: Okay. So I mean, there’s another example of taking Roman acknowledgement from the money.
Levi: Absolutely. She’s a wealthy woman.
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: She had multiple homes. She had a place in Philippi, but obviously from Thyatira also. Purple was basically the richest. It was like Versace of its day.
Jim: And they regulated it.
Levi: And she, she used that money to funnel the Apostle Paul and supported, let the whole church in Philippi get started in her house.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Go Lydia. (laughs)
Levi: Go Lydia. Go.
Jim: So when I get on a flight, I can have a routine of putting my Bose headset on and kind of sync and then reading or, or listening to the Word, you know, or music or whatever it might be. Your wife was flying somewhere and had a different experience. What happened with her?
Levi: She was on a flight out of Minneapolis, and at one point she opened up the little window shade and saw the full northern lights going off in the sky.
Jim: That’d be a great-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … great thing.
Levi: And she was like, “Oh my gosh.” And she couldn’t believe that the captain never warned everybody. Like, “Hey, we’re up flying over the Northern Lights.” And so then she got up and walked down the plane and not one person had their window shade open. Everyone was just glued to a six-inch screen-
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: … when they could have been looking at something people fly to Europe to see.
Jim: (laughs)
Levi: And it was just this idea of let’s not live a small life. Let’s not live a life, you know, just based on the things of this world. When God offers us a panorama of His glory at all times.
Jim: It’s so good. You know, Peb Jackson is a mutual friend. He passed away not long ago.
Levi: Yeah.
Jim: But, uh, he, he, boy, he poured into so many people’s hearts.
Levi: Yeah.
Jim: He worked here at Focus, worked at Young Life, worked for Rick Warren, and, uh, he was an outdoorsman. And just, he was the guy that you wanted to hang out with.
Levi: Yeah.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What did he teach you?
Levi: Peb was my Yoda.
Jim: (laughs)
Levi: He was one, one of them. I had two Yodas that in my journey that I talk about my spiraling, I talk about in the book. I reached out to two older men and, and just asked him to speak into it. And he was so gracious to encourage me. And one of the things he taught me was the nature fix. You know, I’ve, I’ve always been going after it, which is computer and speaking and airplanes. And he’s like, “Levi, you need to get out and catch fish. You need to get out and hike. You need to get out in nature. Nature fixes things inside of us. Man’s first job was to take care of a garden.”
John: Mm-hmm.
Levi: And so there’s, there’s something you reconnect with God in a unique way in wild places. And, and I got to talk with Peb, uh, right before he went to be with Jesus. And, and he was really, um, a sage to me. And he, he gave me a vision for the third and final season of life, which, ’cause he, he lived and died so well with all three seasons, both the warrior season, the elder-father season, but then also the sage season.
Jim: Yeah. You know, this may be that place to unpack that once again from yesterday, those three phases of life.
Levi: Yeah.
Jim: I always think of my life in quarters probably ’cause I played football.
Levi: Sure.
Jim: First quarter, second quarter, you have 20 years each and pretty much that’s it.
Levi: We’re going hockey here. Yeah. (laughing) Three periods.
Jim: Okay. You’re going hockey with three periods.
Levi: Well, the, the-
Jim: But speak to that and let’s question some of the outcomes.
Levi: Okay. So this theologian said, um, that, and it’s, the theologian, I don’t, I wouldn’t say I agree with in every regard, but we learned to, to swallow the meat and spit the bones. Right?
John: Mm-hmm.
Levi: He said, “Life can be reduced down to three seasons. First season, you build a container. Second season, you have to decide to fill the container, and third, you need to give the container and its contents away.”
Jim: Yeah. And in that context, um, as a Christian filling the container, what’s our mindset? What does that look like in a healthy context?
Levi: Well, I’ll, let me use the paradigm of my father. My dad went to be with Jesus while I was actually working on this book, which was a whole another dimension of spiraling-
Jim: Oh, yeah.
Levi: … in the middle of all this. Um, the building the container would be you’re creating a job, you’re, you’re, whether you’re starting a company or a non-profit, whatever you’re doing, and, and you know what? There’s a lot of people who wanna scrap all that and just hurry to get to a million dollars and retire early. And so they’re not building a big container to the glory of God. But to the point of Lydia, she was only able to do all that because she built a big container. So there’s nothing wrong with that. And do what God calls you to do. Scale that business for the glory of God, create wealth, donate generously to Focus in the Family. Right?
Jim: (laughs)
Levi: Do all that with God in your heart. The second season is where you fill the container. And we all know the caricature of the person who scaled the company but doesn’t have a relationship with their kids.
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: Who doesn’t know their wife or their second or third wife. Right? That’s a bigger container, but nothing’s in it. It’s an empty life.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Levi: You have all the money, all the resources, but no richness.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Levi: You’re really poor if you think about it. But then the third is giving the container and its contents away. So for my father, it was building, uh, a media career in radio, Christian radio for many years, a big container. But then he filled that container with his presence in our life. He showed up at our sports. He was there with me, a present grandfather, but also active in missions all the way to the end of his life. He traveled to Macedonia and was teaching, uh, broadcasting to, to, to Christian pastors and leaders. And then the third season is giving it away. And I got to hold my father throughout all of his chemotherapy and was with him when he breathed his last and went to be with Jesus.
John: Mm-hmm.
Levi: And so my, my dad who taught me how to catch a fish and taught me how to read the Bible, was now teaching me how to go and be home with the Lord.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah. I mean, those are beautiful thoughts. You know, there, there’s gotta be somebody listening. And now, yeah, I say this unfortunately includes a lot of professional women who have really run hard. I remember, I think 60 Minutes did a show on these women that have mansions, but never pursued a, a husband, never pursued having children. And the six women, if I recall it correctly, are sitting crying. They have a mansion with big backyards, big front yards, and nobody to share it with.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And certainly men have that same failure but speak to the emotion that women are so good at expressing where men kind of tuck it away. They were in tears-
Levi: Yeah.
John: Hmm.
Jim: … on 60 Minutes saying, “We missed that.”
Levi: I love Dorcas in the book of Acts who dies and all these women weep after her and, and hold the garment she made. There… So the real question isn’t what are, what are we weeping about? Right? It’s, it’s who will weep for us when we’re gone? And, and do we tend towards Instagram and what looks good on LinkedIn? What, what looks good in a resume, or are we aware of what’s gonna be said at our funeral? Well, who’s gonna eulogize us? Our kids? Or, and it doesn’t have to be natural, biological kids. You can be like Paul and not have kids, but have a son or daughter in the faith. Dorcas gave her life to the kingdom, had a big container full of things. And when it was all given away, these women all held the garments up. She made these for us. And God went ahead and raised her from the dead. (Laughs) So, you know, she was a pretty good story.
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: So to the woman who’s just career minded, you might have a big container, but what’s going in it? What is God calling you to, to reach? And to the person who’s got a full container, but you’re holding onto it with, you know, helicopter mom, helicopter, you’re, you’ve got your finger in it with, with all your fingernails. Are you ready to give the container and this contents away?
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah. It’s so true. Uh, you make a comparison or talk about, uh, General George Custer. I mean, there, there’s a name from way back-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and the mistakes he made. E- elaborate on what you observed with his situation.
Levi: He was successful very early on. You know, he, he, he had what’s called, uh, Custer’s luck. He was lucky. He almost got booted out of West Point, barely got his, his post as an officer in the Army. But he was very lucky early on. And then he liked how it made him feel. So he kept chasing that. It made him reckless. It made him dangerous. It actually cost him his life in the end and the lives of all of his men because he disobeyed orders and, and went into his last stand there. Um, and, and, and he was clinging to the accolades that came with the fleeting nature of glory. And I think it’s so easy to look at this world and what we can, the dopamine, the joy, the rush, the exhilaration of accomplishments. And forget about when we die, we’re going to stand before God. Right? Death is either leaving home or going home depending on where your home is. And are we looking for the well-done good and faithful servant of Jesus at the gates of heaven or more for the fleeting fantasy of fame here on this planet?
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s really good. You know, we have another mutual friend, Lisa Harper. Lisa used to work here years ago and headed up the women’s outreach that we had here for quite some time. And she is a dynamic person. I mean, I love Lisa Harper and she’s a speaker now and author and adoptive mother, actually single mom.
Levi: She’s filled her container.
John: Yes.
Jim: She’s filled her container with the right stuff. But Lisa came to pray for you when you were kinda at your low in this midlife crisis. What did she pray for?
Levi: They say when the student is ready the teacher will appear. And, uh, she was the, the friend we needed in our lowest moments.
John: Wow.
Levi: And obviously I’m so grateful we were vulnerable with her. She said, “How you guys doing?” And we could have said, “Oh, we’re doing great.” But we said, “Lisa, we’re having a real hard time.” And we opened up about what we were going through. My wife was spiraling through some of her own hormonal stuff. You know, there’s, midlife for women is different than midlife for men and we both were going through it, but we told her honestly what was happening. And she prayed for us while we cried.
John: Hmm.
Levi: And it was, it was such a, an, a demonstration of the kindness of God. And I’m so grateful we were vulnerable.
Jim: Yeah. And she prayed for the trees that they represented the angels around your home protecting you.
Levi: Yeah. God gave her two visual pictures that stick with us to this day. One is that every time we hear the trees rustling, we would remember that they’re a representative of angels standing guard over our home.
John: Mm-hmm.
Levi: And then she said, “I pray that your son’s laughter will be a flood of God’s joy, washing your hearts from any residue remaining from the grief of losing your daughter.”
Jim: Yeah. Wow.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Those are powerful statements.
Levi: Yeah.
Jim: Both of them. Uh, God tucked a beautiful Easter egg in nature when it comes to… I think it’s the, is it the Fibonacci?
Levi: The Fibonacci. Yeah.
Jim: Fibonacci Sequence.
Levi: Sequence. Yeah.
Jim: This is something I have to talk to Trent about ’cause he’ll know about this. But describe what that is.
Levi: It’s the mathematical representation for a spiral. And it’s tucked within all of nature, a whirlpool galaxy, the, the shell of a snail or, uh, the ram’s horn. The shofar.
Jim: Yeah.
Levi: So there’s order and design. It’s the blueprint of God inside the spiral you find everywhere. And I just think that’s a reminder to those of us who feel like we’re spiraling. You, you’re hearing this today, and you’re, I’m having the hardest time. And I just tell you, it’s not random. It’s not chaos. God has a plan. He’s up to something and his fingerprints are all over your life.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Man, that is so, so true. The, uh, that fingerprint. I mean, are we part of that?
Levi: Absolutely.
Jim: Are we part of his spiral?
Levi: Fearfully and wonderfully made without a doubt. Yeah. And, and God has a plan. He’s not abandoned you. He’s trying to develop you. He’s trying to grow you. So if you can spiral down, you can spiral up towards him. And at the end of your journey, it’s not something but someone.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, Levi, you mentioned your dad. I do wanna just get back to that for a minute. I have so many friends that are losing their parents right now. You know, I lost mine when I was young. And in a weird way I’m saying, “Lord, I think that was healthy.” I know that sounds strange, but I’m seeing the anguish of my friends who are in their 50s and 60s who are losing their parents in their 80s and the struggles that they’re having with that and dementia and all those things. Um, help me understand what that feels like as an adult losing a father.
Levi: You know, my dad was my best friend, best man at my wedding. We talked every day and he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer at 71 on April 2nd and went home to be with Jesus at 72, one year later to the day, April 2nd-
John: Hmm.
Levi: … the day after Easter. And it was very hard to watch. It was very painful. Um, the hospice, the whole ordeal, it was agonizing. The cancer in the end ate up his lungs and liver and internal organs.
John: Ah.
Levi: And it was awful to watch him go through it. But his last lucid words were, “Wow. Wow. Wow.”
John: Hmm.
Levi: And I think that’s just a picture of what he was experiencing in God’s presence.
Jim: That middle zone where God does, what you have a foot on one side, a foot on the other.
Levi: The veil was thin.
John: Yeah.
Jim: So many people that are in that dying modality, you know, they reach out, they talk about seeing angels with their last breath. It’s something if you’re a non-believer, you may want to check that out. (laughs)
Levi: Yeah.
Jim: Because I think its evidence of what is real.
Levi: I think one famous hospice worker who was there at the death of Voltaire, said that for all the money in Europe, he would not attend another death of an atheist.
John: Hmm.
Levi: And I think that when you do talk about the deaths of God’s people, even though there’s pain and biologically, physically, there was a lot of awful stuff about it. But there was also a sense of peace in God’s presence there.
Jim: You know, Levi, you have fought long and hard through the spiral. What about that person who, uh, is not doing well? Uh, maybe doesn’t have that child around them, they’re pretty alone and they’re listening today at all the downward spirals that they’ve encountered. They’d love nothing more to be able to spiral up. Uh, maybe we can just have you pray for them, um, rather than have you speak to them. But let’s pray for them, if you will-
Levi: I’d love to.
Jim: … right here at the end.
Levi: Father, I thank you for my brother or sister. I thank you for this moment that through technology and the gift of Focus that we get to have this, this connection in the spirit. And I just pray, even if you would just open your hands up just to, to recognize and appreciate with open palms that God’s with you. And I invoke the name of Jesus. And, and I thank you Lord, that you said, we get to believe for peace to come into the house where Jesus enters in. Jesus, you’ve entered into the house, the physical temple of my brother or sister and I just pray for peace and I pray for purpose. And I thank you that there is someone that they know they can bless, someone they can text today, someone they can encourage, a soup kitchen or a-
John: Mm-hmm.
Levi: … a young mentoring program or YMCA. They can go to something, a Boys and Girls Club, whatever it would be, God, that they can encourage someone, they’ll be blessed as they’re a blessing right here in their spiral, God, would you just calm them and would you call them? In Jesus’ name I pray.
John: Mm-hmm.
Levi: Amen.
Jim: Amen.
John: Amen.
Jim: Levi, this has been great. You’re like a fastball pitcher, man. You’re just throwing it right down the middle with lots of heat. (laughs).
Levi: Someone said I’m a tweet waiting to happen. (laughs) But, uh-
Jim: A tweet waiting to- (laughs).
Levi: … I don’t know, I don’t know about all that. (laughs)
Jim: Nonetheless, I mean, you just know the Word so well.
John: Yeah.
Jim: You live it well. You live with the pain that everybody lives with. The limp-
John: Hmm.
Jim: … that so many of us have. And that’s why you connect with so many people. You’re not trying to project perfection. You’re projecting brokenness and God with you in the brokenness-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and that’s beautiful. That’s the story.
Levi: Kind words. Thank you.
Jim: Yeah. No. It’s really good. And thanks for being with us. And your wonderful book, uh, Blessed Are the Spiraling: How the Chaotic Search for Significance Can Lead to Joy through Life’s Shifting Season. If you’re in that spot, as Levi prayed, he’s praying for you, you know? God sees all the dots and He connects them.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And He knows that you prayed with us there. Get ahold of us. Call us. We have caring Christian counselors who will talk with you and talk about your situation. Provide you with resources here that will improve your situation. That is our goal. And don’t hold back. There’s nothing that will be embarrassing. We’ve been at this 48 years. We have a great database of answers to your questions.
John: Hmm.
Jim: And frankly, if it’s a new question, we’d love to add it to the team’s ability to help someone else. So get ahold of us and, uh, if you can make a gift of any amount, we’ll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thank you. If you can’t afford it, get ahold of us. We’re a Christian ministry. We will get it into your hands and we’ll trust others we’ll cover the cost of that.
John: Yeah. We’ve got the links at the website to, uh, find the book, to donate generously to the ministry, to connect with a counselor and so much more. You’ll find us at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Of course, you can always call us. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back when we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
