Day One
Erin Smalley: We- we look at where we started, where we came from, some people are like, “That’s a terrible story, why do you tell it?” We love it because it shows, “Look at how far we’ve come.” Look at what God has done, thank goodness we got help. We learned how to manage conflict, and how to communicate better, and to not throw laundry over the balcony near your wife.
Jim: (Laughs).
Erin: And we just go, “33 years later, here we are and look at what God has done.”
John Fuller: That’s Erin Smalley describing how she and her husband Greg have stuck together in marriage, despite some ups and downs in the relationship. I’m John Fuller and we’ll hear more of their story today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Jim Daly: Actually, we’re gonna hear several marriage stories today because Greg and Erin joined me and my wife Jean in the studio recently. Uh, we decided to have a round-table discussion (laughs) about better ways to connect as a husband and a wife. It’s always a little dangerous having Jean join (laughs), I feel a little exposed.
John: She’s the truth teller.
Jim: She is a truth teller. The basis of this conversation was a book I wrote with the help of Kenny Chapman. The title is The Healthy Marriage Devotional: 365 Daily Inspirations to Bring You Closer Together. And it was a lot of fun exploring different themes and stories about marriage with Jean and Greg and Erin, and I think every couple will find something helpful from this program.
John: Yeah this is really a delightful conversation, and uh, Greg and Erin head up our marriage and family content here at Focus and do a lot of writing and speaking and counseling on marriage issues. By the way, if you’d like to learn more about that devotional, uh, Jim mentioned, we’ve got details for you at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Let’s go ahead and hear that round-table conversation on today’s Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Erin: So first we’re gonna talk about strengthening marriages, and Jim and Jean, we’re gonna start off with a story about cooking, and how you-
Jim: (Laughs).
Erin: … have very different approaches to following recipes.
Jim: Well, do you want the right way or the wrong way?
Erin: Uh-oh. That’s what I would say.
Dr. Greg Smalley: Let’s start with the wrong way first.
Jim: Let’s start with the right way, Jean, how do you cook?
Jean Daly: Well, having a science background-
Jim: That’s no default.
Jean: I do like looking for the meniscus and the liquid measuring, I-
Jim: Does Anybody know what that is?
Greg: I tore my meniscus in my knee one time, so.
Jim: Yeah, I have a torn meniscus.
Jean: I do, I’m not quite as precise anymore, but I do, you know, you-
John: You like to follow the recipes.
Erin: Yes.
Jim: Okay.
Jean: Put the flour in the cup and use a knife to scrape it off and get that exact.
Jim: That’s where was going.
Greg: Right. You- you- you are loving your family by giving them the best version of the food you’re preparing.
Jim: You know, it’s only pancake mix. That’s all, that… it’s not like tile grout, the stuff you can actually add a little water, and if it’s too thin-
Greg: This isn’t beef wellington.
Jim: … add a little flour. If it’s too thick, you thin it down.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: I mean it… So I was like, “Oh, my gosh. This is going to be painful.”
Greg: Like, was this from the get-go?
Jim: Oh yeah.
Greg: Like from day one?
Jean: Oh yes, oh yes, from the get go.
Greg: You saw this?
Jim: And I’m sure the other, uh, shoe on the foot would be her watching me and she’s going, “What are you doing?”
Greg: Right, “That’s gonna be terrible,” or…
Jim: “Are you- are you trying to ruin breakfast?”
Jean: (Laughs).
Jim: I mean, that’s not what she said, but-
Greg: “You don’t love me?”
Jim: … I’m sure it’s what you were thinking.
Jean: Well, no, a- and we are… we didn’t know that we are generally opposites.
Jim: We thought, “We went through a marriage, now you two do a lot of marriage counseling.”
Jean: (Laughs).
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: Also, Jean and I went to marriage counseling, that was so smart. What- the statistic is great.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: You know if you go to 10 hours or more of marriage counseling, what’s the incident of divorce? It’s very low.
Erin: Oh, the pre-marriage counseling.
Greg: It’s like 80%.
Erin: Yes, yes.
Greg: 80% stay together.
Jim: Yeah, that’s amazing. So that’s the first step, so we did that one really well. And we went into that going, “We’re so much alike. We are just so similar, this is why God has brought us together.”
Erin: It’s so sweet. Yeah.
Jim: Because we care about the same things, and we see the world the same way. And then we cooked breakfast together and went, “What is this?”
Erin: (Laughs).
Jean: Yes.
Jim: But isn’t that true? I mean, that’s kind of the opposite thing. So yeah, that was the, uh, you know. I think I’ve learned to appreciate, sloppy cooking only goes so far.
Greg: Right.
Jim: Eventually measuring things does pay off.
Greg: Exactly.
Erin: It’s helpful.
Jim: In the long run.
Greg: Yeah.
Jean: And being opposites, you know, that… we are opposites, I was such a night owl, he’s a morning person. He’s an extrovert, I’m an introvert.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: (Laughs).
Jean: And those differences can become quite annoying. But you know, you really need… it helps to do kind of a shift, and in thinking, and instead of being annoyed by those differences, just recognizing God makes us different.
Greg: That’s a good thing.
Erin: Yes.
Jean: It is a good thing.
Jim: That was the challenge.
Erin: Been a blessing to the marriage, to be different.
Jim: That was Jean’s challenge, how am I gonna make a positive outta this negative thing?
Jean: (Laughs).
Jim: But I remember being at the sink, I mean, we were probably married six, eight months, do you remember when I’m at the sink and I’m brushing my teeth? I start really pretty loud in the morning, like, “Hey, how you doing? What’s happening? Did you sleep? Did you dream about anything? What’d you dream about? Tell me about that.”
Jean: (Laughs).
Greg: Before coffee, I’ve got nothing.
Jim: “What would you like for breakfast? You want anything for breakfast?”
Jean: (Laughs).
Jim: I mean, that’s a little, little exaggerated, but I’m a talker in the morning.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: And, uh, she was not responding to me.
Erin: Uh-oh.
Jim: And I thought, seriously I thought-
Greg: Well then you start to personalize it.
Jim: Well, it was like-
Greg: Like what’s this about?
Jean: Yes.
Jim: Well, what have- what have I done?
Greg: Right, yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: How have I upset her? She seems mad. And then one day, which was good communication-
Erin: Good, good, good.
Jim: … she just, you know, she’s brushing her teeth and I’m yapping away, and she’s not talking to me, and then she just looked at me and said, “I don’t really talk before 10 o’clock.”
Greg: (Laughs).
Jean: (Laughs).
Jim: And I went, “Oh, okay then.” The pieces are falling into place.
Greg: Oh, okay, so it wasn’t me. Yeah, we’re not in trouble.
Jim: That was so helpful to me. I didn’t have to guess why you weren’t talking to me, and I put everything in of the simple answer, which is, I don’t really talk before 10, I thought I had upset you somehow and this isn’t working very well in our marriage.
Jean: Okay, Erin, it’s my turn to ask you a question. Explain how mentoring can help a marriage for both the mentors and the mentees, those being mentored.
Jim: And let me give a shameless shout-out to- to your mentoring program here at Focus for people to sign up. Yeah, talk about that real quick with an answer.
Greg: Yeah we just, we- we know that the real answer for marriage revival in our country is this army of couples, every church, there’s so many couples that just want to help, want to invest, want to do something for another couple. Oftentimes it’s like, “Well, what do we do?”
Jean: Mm-hmm.
Greg: So we’ve created something called Marriage Champions to where it just… it helps give vision for a couple going, “Yeah we want to do something,” so, you know, one idea is to pray for another couple, or maybe babysit for a couple with young kids.
Jean: Mm-hmm.
Greg: Or, you know, take someone out to coffee or double date, it’s these simple things that we’re finding is a great way to invest in other couples to mentor them.
Erin: Yeah, and so often we don’t realize that we as a mentor, actually benefit from pouring into another couple, that it blesses our marriage because we’re ministering together and we’re imparting wisdom to someone else, and our experience. Granted, most people are like, “Well, I don’t- I don’t think that we have the perfect marriage, so we can’t mentor.” But the truth is, you know, if- even if you’re just a little bit further down the road than another couple… and as well for us having a mentor couple is a blessing too, someone who is further down the road, who has wisdom and can pour into our marriage.
Jean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, so many folks that support the ministry say to me when I’m traveling and meeting with them, you know, “We pray for you guys and we write you a check, but is there anything else we could do?”
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: Man, this is a great way to plug in with us, to… within your church, be a marriage mentor, just go to your pastor, talk about it, do you mind if I do that? And… and then there’s so many ways to hook in with Focus to help those couples that are struggling, you know the younger couples that need some help, they just, and they’re not probably gonna say anything, but if you seek them out, they’ll go to lunch with you and-
Erin: Totally, and even just the question like, “How did you guys deal with this? We have small kids and we’re overwhelmed, how did you guys do that?” And it’s just such a simple thing to share your experience, and encourage them and give them hope that you guys are gonna get through this, it’s a hard season that you’re in, but you’re gonna get through it. We did.
Jim: Yeah, speaking of that, that was, (laughs), I remember, I have something called the Gordian knot. You know? And this is a thing out of, I don’t know, Philosophy 101. But it was this knot in the ancient world that could not be undone. So anything I hit up against that I can’t figure it out, I go oh that’s the Gordian knot, like I can’t figure out undo do it.
Greg: Walk away and put it down.
Jim: So the Gordian knot for Jean and I in our marriage occurred when, I mean, I’m working hard, I got… I was just- I just became president focused, there were things we needed to work on, and you know, I’m spending 12, 14 hours a day at the office, which was not good. Our kids were young.
Greg: Yeah, wow. It was hard season. Yeah.
Jean: Yeah.
Jim: And I remember one night specifically, you know where this is going. So I remember, uh, you know, I got home at, I don’t know, six o’clock maybe. Um, and I step into the door, had a briefcase back in those days before smartphones.
Jean: (Laughs).
Greg: (Laughs).
Jim: And uh, you know, I just sat it down and Jean actually meets me at the door with the boys who are probably like six and four, maybe seven and five, and she goes, “They’re yours.” (Laughs).
Erin: (Laughs).
Jim: And I was like, “Okay, can I just, you know, put some comfy clothes on? And can I just take five minutes to throw some water on my face?”
Greg: Yeah, yeah.
Jim: But I got it, and you know, the thing about it wasn’t… I mean, Jean was equally desperate as I was, so you-
Greg: Yeah, you’re both exhausted.
Jim: … have these two exhausted parents.
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: And you both need to tend to the children in some way. And that to me was a Gordian knot, it’s like there is no real way to undo that knot, we just need to figure out how to survive in this moment.
Jean: Mm-hmm.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: So what do you… what kind of Gordian knots did you guys have?
Greg: Hmm.
Jim: (Laughs).
Greg: That’s a- that’s a great question, I mean probably a lot like what you were saying is that, you know, with when we had young kids and, same thing-
Jim: That seems to be that time.
Greg: Yeah, that same thing, I mean, Erin would just be exhausted, I was traveling a lot.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: And so I would call, you know, I’d be out to dinner with colleagues and, you know, we’re having this great time, and traveling is exhausting. But I would call her and I’m just telling her, “Yeah, we did this and we had this meal, and the steak was awesome,” and yeah.
Erin: Yeah. And I’m- I’m sitting on the side of the road in a broken down car, remember that? And going, “Well I’m so glad Greg, I’ve got three kids in the back seat, my car won’t start, and I’m glad you went out for steak,” (laughs), “That’s awesome. That’s great.”
Jean: “And I got three hours of sleep last night, good for you.”
Erin: Yes, yes, add that in there. “So I’m calling the tow truck right now, and I’ll be fine.”
Greg: And- and I think for me, the hardest part was, as we would talk, so I’m- I’m excited to hear about our day and just to catch up, connect. And then it would be kind of this dump of everything that’s going on that’s frustrated her.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: And I would feel so helpless.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: But how I would choose to handle that would be that I would try to shut her down. I would try to say, “Hey, man, when I call you like this, like can we just talk like fun, happy, can we just relate, and you know, why do you always have to dump everything on me?” And you know, it… because what I wasn’t understanding was that- that it just would create helplessness in me.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: I didn’t know what to do, and so I’d try to control her to get her to not tell me about these things and it just, it never worked.
Erin: No. And but really underneath that, all I was wanting is to know I wasn’t alone.
Greg: Yeah.
Jean: Yes.
Erin: That he was with me even though he wasn’t home, that he was with me across the miles, and that I wasn’t alone in parenting these children and feeling so overwhelmed.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Just to know that he was available to connect with me in that moment.
Greg: So then I stopped trying to fix and solve, and just started going “All right, yeah tell me, what was- what’s that been like?”
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: And that was how we untied the Gordian knot.
Jim: There you go.
Jean: Ooh, that’s good.
Erin: Yeah, nice.
Greg: Well Jim, we love stories about older couples who have been married, you know, 40, 50, even 60 years, I mean, their- their love stories are amazing. So from what you’ve observed, you know, what’s the secret to their success? So as you hear all these stories, what- what stands out about their love stories?
Jim: You know, you do a good job at those, collecting these little stories, so I remember one that’s kind of funny, this couple that had been like 70 years married, they were asked, what’s the secret?
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: And he said, “Well, when you get into bed, play footsies and make sure you say sorry.” (Laughs), and so I thought there’s something pretty easy to-
Erin: (Laughs).
Jean: That’s good.
Jim: So that seemed to work for them.
Erin: Yeah.
Jean: Yes.
Jim: And, uh, but you know, again, I think we over complicate it. I think resiliency is really cool, uh, it’s an incredible attribute. Can it be developed? I think so. It’s attitudinal.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: So what’s the attitude toward your spouse?
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: Um, you know and I- I’m not always strong at that, I mean I can, “Ah, what are you doing?” You know? Right? (Laughs).
Greg: No, never.
Jim: (Laughs).
Jean: Sure, there are times, yes.
Greg: It never happens. This feels like a Gordian knot moment.
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: But it’s that resiliency factor that, you know, we’re in this, we’re gonna figure it out, we have to figure it out. And there’s degrees of that, you guys are counseling people all the time, but-
Greg: I love th- I love the- the- the meaning though of resilience, it’s able to withstand or recover quickly from difficulties.
Jim: Yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: And there’s a beautiful way in which kind of thinking about that, repairing for what will happen, we will have those moments to where a child is handed to us the moment we come home from work or, you know, whatever’s going on, and how do we recover quickly from that.
Jim: That’s so true.
Erin: Yeah, and even seeing the benefit of it that, gosh, as we walk through these difficulties, we’re gonna grow stronger because of it. And so there’s benefit, if we can remember that through those difficult times in marriage, that we’re developing grit and resiliency.
Jim: Yeah, and it’s so good. And trying to de-escalate, I mean, that’s a big part of it. Like, what are we really talking about here? It’s pancake mix. You know, (laughs), whatever.
Jean: (Laughs).
Greg: Right. And what’s below the surface.
Jim: Yeah. And to your point, so many of these things are just the mundane things of life that, you know, we all laugh about who squeezes the toothpaste from what part of the tube, right? And- and these things become irritating for some silly reason, and- and it- it shouldn’t be that way.
Greg: Yeah. Can you snap back from that stuff quick?
Jim: That’s the resiliency.
Greg: By either going, you know what, we are different and that’s- that’s how Erin likes to do it, or that’s what’s going on or “Hey, how do we need to repair what just happened quickly?” But I love resiliency.
Jim: Yeah, some things shouldn’t matter, some things shouldn’t matter much.
Erin: So Jim and Jean, I have another question. I know you guys have a story about losing Jean’s wedding ring.
Jim: Well, we don’t have a story about that.
Erin: (Laughs), so Jean has a story, so Jean, this question is for you. So you lost your wedding ring, and what happened and what did you guys learn through that?
Jim: Well, may I set this up?
Jean: Oh, please.
Jim: Yes. Because I came home from work, it was probably about six, there’s a pattern here. And I bound through the door, my bride is nowhere. I’m going, “Where- where’s my wife? Where’s Jean?” And then I hear this…(crying sound) in the bathroom.
Erin: Oh no.
Jim: And I go to open the door and it’s locked. And I’m going-
Greg: Yeah, these are… none of these are good signs.
Jean: (Laughs).
Jim: I’m going, “Are you- are you okay?”
Greg: Did our boys tie her up in the bathroom?
Jim: She’s going, “No, I’m not okay.” I’m like, “Oh my gosh, what is going on? We have a wonderful marriage and a good life, what’s happening?”
Erin: Oh.
Jim: And she eventually opened the door, took her a little time. You can take over from there.
Greg: It’s good set up.
Jim: So I’m kind of afraid now.
Jean: And we were newlyweds, so this was the first year of our marriage.
Erin: Mm.
Jean: And I-
Jim: “It’s over.”
Jean: Obviously accidentally flushed my wedding ring.
Greg: Flushed it?
Erin: Oh no.
Jean: Flushed it down the toilet.
Jim: May I give some advice to husbands right here, it’s not in our devotional, but this is added material.
Greg: This is a bonus.
Jim: Don’t say, “How could that happen?”
Greg: Right. “How could you possibly do that?”
Jim: That’s not a good question.
Jean: Right. What were you thinking?
Jim: Well it wasn’t that, it was more like “What, how did that happen?”
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: To which you continued to cry.
Jean: I, well, it was so interesting. I was sobbing, I could not stop sobbing. And, you know, poor Jim’s trying to console me, I was inconsolable. And I, you know, the ring obviously meant a lot to me, it had been my-
Jim: Yeah.
Jean: It had been my engagement ring that I told Jim I wanted that to be our- my wedding ring, it was my birthstone.
Erin: Oh.
Jean: We didn’t have the money to replace it.
Jim: Surrounded by diamonds.
Jean: It- I’m- I am sentimental, but I just fell apart.
Greg: Yeah, that makes sense.
Jean: What is so sweet though, the next day, I had to work all day, and Jim spent the entire day taking that toilet apart, hoping-
Erin: Oh my word.
Jim: I began to cry.
Jean: Hoping-
Jim: “I can’t believe I had to work on this toilet.”
Jean: Well, and-
Greg: I don’t even know how to do that.
Jean: Well, that was before YouTube.
Erin: Yes.
Jean: (Laughs).
Jim: Well let us just say, it was a good effort, but I didn’t find the ring. I found other things, but I didn’t find the ring.
Jean: No, but that, that act, I’ll tell you what, that still sticks with me. That meant so much to me.
Greg: Yeah. What did that say? Like, what was the message by him doing that?
Jean: It said, it said, “I care enough about how upset you are, that I’m going to try to fix this. I love you, I’m gonna spend my whole Saturday looking for a ring that was-”
Jim: In my incompetence, may I add. This was like the weakest part of my masculinity, (laughs).
Jean: (Laughs), right, right.
Greg: …undo what I’ve just screwed up here.
Jim: You kind of go, okay, there’s two bolts, if I take these off, I’m sure I can get this off the floor, (laughs).
Greg: That’s, that’s reasonable.
Erin: Does that work?
Jim: Yeah, never done it before in my life, “But that’s so sweet,” I never heard you convey that.
Jean: Oh, absolutely. And in the end, you know, I eventually realized the ring… it’s- yes, it was sentimental, and yes it was pretty, but it’s just a symbol.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Yeah.
Jean: Just like the wedding, the big wedding. It’s just a symbol.
Greg: Yeah.
Jean: And it’s really about the relationship of the marriage that matters.
Greg: The commitment that you’ve made.
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: Let me, let me move here, uh, toward the long view of marriage. You know, so often in parenting we talk about this, the need to have the long view when your fourteen-year-old is misbehaving and kind of frame your mind as the parent around them being 30.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: And what are you aiming for and what are the lessons to teach them in that moment? That kind of thing. That can be said too of marriage.
Greg: Yeah.
Jean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That you need to take the long view of marriage. So many of us are living in survival mode because the pace of the culture, the job or the jobs we both have, et cetera. The family, all of that. How- how do we, uh, keep that long view perspective when everything’s raining down on us every day?
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Yeah, it’s so important to know where do we want to go. What do we want our marriage to look like long term? I recently had a couple sitting in my office and they had attended a wedding, and they came in, they- they were struggling prior to attending this wedding. And sitting at this wedding of a friend, they came in and they said, “You know what, it just revived what we really want to shoot for. We want a marriage that glorifies God.” And it gave them a vision for where they wanted to go, and it actually helped in the moment because it inspired them to work through what was happening now, for the long-term goal of we wanna work toward a marriage that is glorifying.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: There is something powerful about, thinking about, like you’re saying-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: What- where are we gonna be in 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years in, and thinking that through because then that gives us one hope-
Erin: Right.
Greg: … that we’re gonna get there, it gives us a goal, something that we’re working towards. And there’s just something powerful about having that, that long view. We said that in our, our wedding vows, when we talked about in the good times, in the bad times.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: You know, that- that this is a lifelong marriage.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: There- there’s something powerful about going, this is for a lifetime, I’ve eliminated the word divorce from our vocabulary. It- it- it creates kind of that- that journey mentality of going, you know, I don’t- I don’t know exactly what’s gonna happen, but I know where we’re headed.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: Let’s just start walking and journeying together and then deal with whatever comes up. We’re in this together, and we’ll figure it out along the way.
Jim: (Laughs), that’s good.
Greg: I mean, it- it’s- I think that’s what it- it helps us do.
Jim: I’m laughing because I know the stories of you guys when you were, you know, first married, I- we cannot, escape today without the laundry story from you.
Erin: Oh, my word, (laughs).
Jim: I just love that story because it’s so funny.
Greg: The worst.
Jean: It’s very real.
Jim: But we’re right at the end, let’s talk about early development in marriage, and some of the things you weren’t doing so well.
Greg: What- what- what I wasn’t doing well was James 4:1 that says, “What causes quarrels or fights among you, is that not the desires that wage war within you?” What’s really going on.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: So one time, Erin was, we- we just had gotten into a conflict early in the morning, nothing was going right.
Jim: You’re married how long?
Greg: Months.
Erin: Six months maybe.
Jim: Months? So it’s perfect.
Greg: Under a year for sure.
Erin: Yeah. I had to go to work, it was a Saturday, didn’t wanna go to work, we’re irritated. So I set a good firm boundary before I left to say, no more talking, let’s just stop, and when I get back we’ll figure it out.
Greg: So she pops her head in the door, so she’s leaving, she’s a nurse at this time working in a hospital.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: So she shuts the door, pops her head back in and makes one more smart comment.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: About whatever we’d been talking about, and she had already said, “No more talking.”
Jean: (Laughs).
Jim: So she violated her own rule.
Jean: She got the last word.
Erin: I violated my own rule.
Jim: So you’re throwing the flag.
Greg: So she, she’s gone. Like, I’m just standing there going, “Well that wasn’t very nice, that’s so unfair.” And so I was… had already said I’d get our laundry together, so I pull it all together. So I used to put it all in this huge mesh bag ’cause there was no elevator, and we lived up on the fourth floor. But under our apartment on the first floor was the laundry room, so I would just jam all the laundry in, in this bag and then wait till no one was around and then just drop it.
Jim: (Laughs).
Greg: On the ground, then I just would go down, put it in the laundry, it was very… room, it was very easy. So as I’m about to release the laundry bag that’s stuffed full, I see Erin walking on the ground floor. I was still irritated by her whole last word thing, so I thought, wouldn’t it be funny, in my mind, I’m thinking, “It’d be hilarious if I dropped that by her.”
Jim: By her.
Greg: She’ll look up and I’ll be like, “Last word that,” and I’ll win. ‘Cause marriage is all about winning.
Jean: (Laughs).
Greg: And so sure enough, I released it, and my, well, I guess depending on your perspective, either my aim was really on or really off.
Jean: Oh, that is-
Erin: Yeah.
Greg: But either way, I hit her, barely clipped her.
Jean: Oh.
Greg: With the big laundry, enough though to throw her kind of on the ground.
Jim: Oh jeez.
Greg: So there she is like-
Erin: My keys went flying, yep.
Greg: Yeah, she’s just staring at me as I’m looking at her going-
Jim: Uh-oh.
Greg: Uh yeah, uh-oh, I’m in big trouble.
Jim: (Laughs).
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah, that was not good.
Greg: She starts racing back up, like she’s coming up the stairs to get me.
Erin: Oh yeah, oh yes.
Greg: And uh, I did what any real man would do in that situation, I ran back in the apartment and locked the door.
Erin: And thank goodness I didn’t have my keys, ’cause I don’t know what I would’ve have done.
Jean Oh, you really did, oh.
Erin: But I went to work, my 12-hour shift, came back and walked into the apartment. To make amends, he had washed everything in the apartment, including the couch cushions, so he unzipped the outer couch cushion, but shrunk them, to where they were like these pyramids across-
Greg: How about a label to say not to dry them, that would’ve been helpful.
Erin: Yes. But we tell that story because, we- we look at where we started, where we came from. Some people are like, “That’s a terrible story, why do you tell it?” We love it because it shows, look at how far we’ve come.
Jim: Yes.
Erin: Look at what God has done, thank goodness we got help, we learned how to manage conflict. And how to communicate better, and to not throw laundry over the balcony near your wife.
Jim: (Laughs).
Erin: And we just go 33 years later, here we are and look at what God has done.
Jim: And that’s the point of everything.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Look at what God has done. So this has been great, let’s uh, let’s come back next time and keep it going, can we do that?
Erin: Absolutely.
Jean: Yes.
John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and uh, we’ve heard part one of a conversation, Jim and Jean Daly had with Dr. Greg Smalley and his wife Erin. And uh, our panel was exploring themes from a book that Jim wrote called The Healthy Marriage Devotional: 365 Daily Inspirations to Bring You Closer Together. Get a copy of that book from us here at the ministry, make a monthly pledge of any amount to Focus, and we’ll send that book to you as our way of saying thank you for supporting this ministry and all that we’re doing, uh, and working hand in hand with us to strengthen marriages.
Jim: Frankly, that’s one of the big reasons why Focus on the Family exists, it’s to help husbands and wives have strong and healthy relationships that honor the Lord, how about that? And uh, we have many resources for you, like our counseling team and Hope Restored, our four-day intensive where we offer, uh, counseling to marriages that are really struggling and in trouble.
John: Yeah, and Jim, you know this, and I’ve mentioned this before, uh, Dena and I went to a Hope Restored Intensive in Branson, not because we were thinking of divorce, but we were just stuck, after 30 years, we were just, um, we were in some bad patterns, and the staff there was so caring and so kind. And that was about five years ago, today we’re using almost daily the tools that we learned at Hope Restored, so I really wanna encourage our friends, if you know someone who needs help, Hope Restored is a terrific program.
Jim: In fact, it has a 98% satisfaction rating, I mean 98% of the couples that go say the program was really good. And I’m proud of that, and you can partner with us to give that help to couples in need. Uh, make a monthly pledge to Focus on the Family today, or send a one-time gift, whatever you can afford. We can work together, uh, to help save marriages for the Kingdom.
John: Yeah. Donate as you can, either online at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or call us, 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. And we’d be happy to, uh, tell you more about resources, uh, like Hope Restored and The Healthy Marriage Devotional that Jim wrote. And if your travel plans have you coming, uh, to or near Colorado Springs, please check out our website for details about all the great things you can do here at our ministry headquarters. We have a fantastic welcome center with an indoor play area for kids, uh, we’ve got a Whit’s End Soda Shoppe, so much here, including a- a terrific bookstore. Uh, stop by and say hi as you can. And thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
Dr. Greg Smalley: Because at the end of my life, and I want, I wanna… My hope is that Erin will be able to say, “You know what? Greg made a difference in my life. Like, being married to Greg made a difference in a good way.”
Erin Smalley: Yes.
Greg: Not in a bad way.
Jim Daly: That’s a good goal.
Erin: And vice versa. I- I- that’s my goal is to know that I made a difference in your life and improved your life.
John Fuller: Mm-hmm. Well, that’s part of a panel discussion that we introduced last time on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, and we got lots of good marriage advice and encouragement from our guests, uh, Jean Daly, and her husband, Jim, of course, along with Greg and Erin Smalley.
Jim: John, it was a- I thought a great conversation last time, exploring themes like navigating our differences as couples, the value of mentoring and why it’s important to have a long view of marriage. It kind of slows the- the burn of anger, or disagreement down quite a bit. Jean and I had so much fun, uh, trading stories and insights with Greg and Erin. Uh, the Smalley’s head up our marriage team here at Focus, and I really appreciate the wisdom they have for husbands and wives. Uh, if you missed the conversation last time, uh, get an audio copy from us or watch the entire episode on YouTube or better yet, get the Focus on the Family app for your smartphone so you can access amazing content whenever you want.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the source material for this conversation came from a book that Jim, you’ve written, called The Healthy Marriage Devotional: 365 Daily Inspirations to Bring You Closer Together. You can learn more about that book and all the resources we have to help strengthen your marriage at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And now the continuation of that round table conversation between Jim and Jean Daly, and Greg and Erin Smalley, on today’s Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Jim: All right. Let’s explore some of the things that married couples can do to improve their relationship. That’s the whole idea here, right? One is certainly do a devotion together, and we’ve got that great resource for everybody.
Greg: Right.
Jim: But, uh, you’ve written a book, Greg, about tools. Now what’s so funny, I resonate with this because I am not mechanically inclined.
Greg: Nor am I.
Jim: Yesterday we talked about-
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: Me rescuing the ring that Jean lost with taking the toilet apart. I never found the ring.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: I had to put it all back together.
Erin: Impressive.
Jim: I think it didn’t leak, but I’m not sure.
Jean Daly: I don’t remember-
Jim: But the point is, so I’m cruising through one of those big box stores, and they got a sale for a massive toolbox. And it’s like, love at first sight.
Greg: You’ve gotta have it.
Jim: I’m looking at it, going, “That just is so beautiful.”
Greg: Every guy needs a good toolbox.
Jim: Yeah, so I bought it, you know, it was on sale, it was a good deal. And it stands like, eight feet tall. You barely get to the top drawer. And I filled it with ratchets and everything-
Greg: Oh, yeah.
Jim: I need, you know?
Erin: Nice.
Jim: Yeah. Socket sets galore.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: Metrics, standard, you got it.
Greg: Hammers and…
Jim: I’m not sure that I’ve ever used one over the last 15 years.
Greg: But you have them. That’s the point.
Erin: Just in case.
Jim: My sons have used it. But you- you did this whole concept about the toolbox and what- what our wives need. The tools that we need to use for our wives. It’s not the socket set.
Greg: No.
Jim: So what were, what are the tools that our wives need us to use and how- are we as clumsy with those tools as I was with real tools?
Greg: (Laughs). So my son-in-law calls me last night, and so they’re looking to buy a home. It’s their first purchase. And so he, he calls in and goes, “Hey, do you have a toolbox?” I was like, “Yeah.” He goes, “‘Cause we’re gonna need help.” And he goes, “Do you know how to use those tools?” And I went, ‘You know I don’t.” I’m like-
Erin: You should know that.
Greg: “Why- you know this. Why are you even asking me?” He’s like, “Alright, would you be willing to, at least if I tell you how to use it to help us when we move in?”
Jim: But what a humbling moment. Your son-in-law telling you how to use tools.
Greg: Yeah. Because the only- like you, the tools that I have is ’cause my dad passed away and I inherited all his wonderful tools that he knew how to use. He never taught me.
Jim: Yeah, that’s the reason. It’s your dad’s fault.
Greg: Right there. This is exactly his fault. I think there’s some incredible tools as a guy that we need to know and learn how to use for our wives. My- probably my favorite is what I’d call the safety tool ’cause more than anything in- in our marriage, so of 33 years what I’ve learned is that if Erin’s really going to, uh, let me see who she really is. If- if she’s gonna open up and reveal all of who she is, so her, you know, the good, the bad, the ugly, the hurts, the wounds, all that stuff.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: She will only do that if she feels safe with me. Like people won’t open and really reveal who they are if they don’t feel safe. And I- I never had that vision of what- what does that really mean? In other words, safety being that, “Erin, I accept all of who you are.” When we get married, we use, right, the- a lot of couples use those traditional vows that talks about, “To have and to hold.” In the word, to have, it’s such a cool meaning. It says that, “In this moment, I accept all of who you are, all of it. The good, the fun stuff, but the hard stuff, the- the growth areas in your life. Like, I want that all.” And I think when we’re creating safety, that’s what we’re saying is that, “Erin, I accept all of who you are.” And- and that- that relaxes her. It’s like Ruth and Boaz from the Old Testament. If you reread that story, what’s so cool is that Boaz, everything he did in their love story was to create safety. It was helping her to feel safe. Like this was a- a- a foreigner who came into his country and she was trying to pick up grain and wheat. And he’s seeing her do this, and he’s telling his guys, you know, “You do not mess with her. You leave her alone. As a matter of fact, I want you to leave behind some good stuff. Just not, not the stuff that no one wants.” And every time that he enacted with the result to make her feel safe. And that- that launched their love story, she fell in love with that man because of the safety that he created. And so that- that’s a powerful tool. And so ask each other when we figure out how to be safe, so we can ask each other, I can ask Erin, “Hey, what is it when I do, it helps you to feel safe?” Maybe I should ask you right now.
Erin: Oh.
Greg: What- what do I do that helps you to feel safe?
Erin: You know, it’s interesting. It’s something we talked about yesterday on the program. When you listen to me, when you just sit with me and care about my emotion, I feel so safe because you’re with me. I’m not alone in it.
Greg: And it’s just, it’s- so that’s one tool.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: You know, another one is the- the- the tool of knowledge. I love in 1st Peter 3:7, it says, “To treat your wife in an understanding way.” That word understanding, uh, another definition there is knowledgeable. So treat your wife in a knowledgeable way. In other words, get to know her. She’s always changing. There- there’s always something to know about Erin. I think the worst attitude in a marriage we can have is that- that, “Oh, I- I know you 33 years of marriage. Like I know you, I know everything there is to know about you.” But that’s- that’s such a lie because she’s always changing. And so that- that tool of being willing to- to keep asking her questions.
Erin: Being curious.
Greg: Yeah. Like we- we here at Focus, we created this huge, like hundreds and hundreds of questions that couples can ask each other all in that spirit of- of being curious to increase our knowledge. And so that- that tool of just learning about my wife is such an important part of- of our marriage.
Jean: And Erin, there’s one important bit of advice for wives that can rub us the wrong way. (Laughs). Uh, we’re told to affirm our husbands, but you know, that is not easy when they’re not affirming to us.
Jim: Hey, hey, hey. You’re asking that question with such energy. What are you talking about?
Greg: I was gonna say, it’s not easy when he never does anything worth affirming.
Jim: I love the empathy that you’re expressing.
Jean: Yes. Well, so why is it important for women to take the initiative in this area?
Erin: And you’re right that so often as wives, as women, we’re going, “Well, wait, what about us?” We’re supposed to do this for them, to affirm them, to- to encourage them. And the bottom line is we have such great influence. And so if we want that in return, we can absolutely offer that and model the behavior that we want. But for a man, there- it’s interesting because so often I assumed that Greg was getting affirmed here at Focus at work. Like, you know that Jim, you would compliment his vest and say, “Gosh, I really love your vest.” Versus Jean walked in today. And I said, “Oh my word. I love that color on you. That’s awesome.” And men just don’t tend to do that. As women, we do that. And the research shows that a man that is affirmed by his wife once a day, just one time per day, actually has deeper satisfaction in the marriage. And when I read that research, I was like, “Ah, I have time to do that one time a day. If that’s gonna encourage him to enjoy our marriage more, I can do that.”
Jim: You might be able to get two in there.
Erin: Maybe, maybe. But that means we have to be watching for what is it that we love about them? What do we see in them? What can we call out in them? And again, as we do that, you’re influencing. That is the greatest influence we can hold onto, modeling the behavior we wanna see.
Greg: And I know, like, Jim, I don’t know if this is true for you, but for me, I want to feel successful. I want my person, I want Erin to notice these things that I do and to feel successful. And that’s why, I mean, just like last weekend, she’s been bugging me to clean out. We have a- a- a basement. There’s a bedroom. It’s been one of those catch-alls. So it just has all this stuff-
Jim: “You want me to help you?”
Greg: Right.
Jim: I can do that for you.
Greg: There is a toilet in there that probably needs to be undone.
Jim: I’ll just throw everything away if that’s okay.
Erin: Flush it out. Just flush it off.
Jean: Yeah.
Erin: (Laughs).
Greg: So she’s been on me to, “Hey, please just clean that out. You do that really well.” Which I think she makes up just to get me to do it. And I’m like, “Oh, okay.”
Erin: No, you do it well.
Greg: So I finally did it. And I gotta tell you, it looked really good. And so the first thing when I finished, I marched right upstairs, “Erin, you gotta come look at this.” Drag her down, “Look.” And just presents this whole thing that I did. And I’m sitting there going, I am a grown man. Why is it that I have to go and fetch my wife, my person, to let her inspect and to see, and to notice what it is that I did?
Jim: That’s not a problem.
Greg: I think- right. But I think it’s that longing, right?
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: You get it.
Jean: That’s sweet.
Jim: I get it. But it’s just- but I’ve noticed that, that’s why when she affirms me, oh my goodness.
Erin: Yeah. But often what I hear from couples when I’m working with them, um, the wife will say, “Why did- why does he make such a big deal about the things he does?” Um, I mean, I’m doing all kinds of stuff, but I think there’s something exactly what you’re saying, recognizing what’s he really wanting. So if he’s announcing, “Look at what I did.” What’s really the desire under the waterline, and like you’re saying, “I wanna be successful. I wanna be seen for who I am and what I do.”
Greg: I want you to…
Jim: Affirmation.
Greg: To affirm and then give me a treat.
Jim: Now we do that. We do that with the garage. No, I’ll clean up the garage.
Jean: Yes.
Jim: It looks good. It’s been a while since I’ve done that. I mean, I take everything out- I spend 8 hours on this. Like, oh yeah.
Jean: Yes.
Jim: And then I go get Jean. I said-
Greg: You just got to-
Jim: Look at this. Or she just comes out and goes, “Wow, this is incredible.” Then like three, four months later-
Erin: That’s where ours is right now.
Jim: It’s a different call.
Jean: We don’t need to discuss that.
Jim: (Laughs). It’s like, “Hey Jean, can you come out to the garage with me for a minute?” “What happened?”
Greg: Completely undone.
Jean: It’s my catch-all.
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: But you’re right. There’s something- there is something powerful. As much as we talked about, here’s the- the toolbox for the guy that- that’s a huge one for husbands is to get that affirmation.
Jim: You know, Erin, you mentioned something I want to just come back to because it was really quick, but it’s so powerful, you know, and you didn’t say it quite like this, but it was, “What’s happening for me?” I don’t- it wasn’t exactly how you said it, but that’s so much a marriage and so much of the conflict. You know, our mutual good friend Gary Thomas.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: You know, I- I was coming to the conclusion, uh, uh, very similar to- to what he wrote about. And then I interviewed him and he articulated it so well.
Greg: He just does this-
Jim: But this idea, you think of marriage and you’re thinking back to what we said yesterday. You know, you think you’re very similar and then you realize you’re probably opposites ’cause that’s what attracts us.
Greg: That’s the beauty of marriage.
Jim: And that’s fine. You know, uh, an introvert with an extrovert, that’s what attracts you. That opposite of what you are.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: And you get married and then you just, uh, end up grinding over those things that- that are the differences. And you know, Gary said it this way, and I totally agree, “You know, in the end, the institution of marriage is to make you more like Christ.”
Jean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “Okay. What?” That’s where every Christian should lean in. “What do you mean?” To become more selfless like Him. This is God’s character developing us to be more like Him. And wow, that- that did change my perspective. I try to remember that, um, that idea that I need to lay my life down.
Jean: Yeah.
Jim: I need to be selfless in these things. It’s kind of what you were saying, Greg, about knowing your wife completely. Knowing her as well as you can. It’s very similar ’cause when you do, you know, those things that hurt her. You know, those things that trouble her, that bother her. Um, the problem is we just have such a propensity to push those buttons.
Greg: Right.
Jim: And I don’t even understand why.
Greg: Yeah. Well, a lot of times it’s accidental.
Jim: Yeah. Let’s say it’s a lot of accidental button pushing.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: Well, that may be true for you. I’m not so sure for me. Some of that just feels like it’s- it’s, uh, standing on the rail like we talked last time about your laundry thing and you- you wanna drop the laundry three floors.
Greg: Yeah. Just to make a little point.
Jim: Just get it close and then you ended up hitting her.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: That’s a metaphor for what I’m talking about. It’s like verbally, we’re dropping that bag of laundry all day.
Greg: And it’s back to that James 4:1. It’s- it’s when we don’t understand what’s below the water line. What- what is really driving the behavior in that moment. Am I willing to step back, take a moment to go, “Okay, what- what is going on for me?”
Erin: Yeah.
Greg: “Why- why am I so upset that Erin, you know, made her one last little comment like we talked about? Like what, why?”
Jean: Right.
Greg: Well, I mean, now looking back, you know, all these years later, it just, it simply, and I was a middle child and nothing was ever fair. And so the fact that she set set a boundary.
Jean: Yes.
Greg: And then violated it just wasn’t fair. It was unjust. Right?
Jean: Right?
Greg: And she needed to know that that wasn’t right.
Jim: Jean’s a middle child too. She’s right with you.
Greg: Right.
Erin: And there might be different ways to let me know that.
Jim: There were many-
Erin: Yes, yes.
Greg: There were many. But I think your point is that we- we react in these knee-jerk ways without taking a moment to go, “Okay, I’m feeling stirred up. What- what’s that about? Why?”
Jim: Okay. Think of the stupidity of this. I mean, really, I’m saying this boldly. I’m saying it to myself.
Greg: He just called me stupid.
Jim: No. Think of the stupidity of this. You know, I’m going to say something that lights your fuse.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: Why? I mean, really, why? What benefit is that to you? The person saying it. And I do it like, every day. I say something and whoop. Lights Jean up. And I’m going, “Okay, that was stupid. Why did I say that?” Sometimes it’s your style. I mean, my backup style is verbal attack.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: So I’ve gotta control that. I just can’t let it go.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Yeah. Well, in those moments we’re triggered. Our hearts closed. We’re heading into fight or flight. We’re not thinking clearly and we just say things, do things in a reaction mode. So it’s not well thought through. So that’s why it’s so important. Like Greg, you were saying to step back and go under the waterline, what is going on for me that I wanna say this cruel thing to the person that means the most to me in this world and when we do that, we can get our heart back open. We can deescalate and then we can come back and have a different conversation.
Greg: Well, here’s the re- here’s the ridiculous part. So just the other night. So we were doing something, it was late and no one had eaten. So you were exhausted. So you went into the bedroom and I thought, “I’m gonna cook us dinner.” And so like Jean, we talked about yesterday, you know, I like to follow the recipes.
Erin: Right.
Greg: And so I was trying to organize and get everything ready. So I had all this chicken ready to go and rice, and I went in to ask Erin, “Hey, would you like some broccoli with the meal I’m about to cook?” And so she goes, “No, that sounds terrible.” And- and I so reacted-
Jim: Time out. Was that true?
Erin: Didn’t say- just like that- I was shocked he was cooking dinner. I was like, “What? You’re cooking dinner? I could come help, but I didn’t know you were cooking dinner.”
Greg: So whatever she said, and she- there was no malice, there was no ill intent.
Jim: Malice.
Greg: Nothing that Erin was trying to do. But I just, I- I kinda yelled out, “Oh, fine.” And then shut the door to the bedroom and just went and sulked in the kitchen. And so a lot of the times we do these re- reactions, you know, I wasn’t planning on doing that. I didn’t wanna treat her that way.
Jim: You were doing something good.
Greg: I was trying to cook for her.
Erin: Right.
Greg: And it just irritated me that now I had to rethink it through ’cause I just- I- that’s what’s hard about cooking for me, is figuring out what to cook.
Jean: Yes.
Greg: So regardless, none of my reaction that was not right. And so a lot of this stuff though is- is learning the importance of coming back around and repairing.
Jean: Mm-hmm.
Greg: Because most of this stuff we’re gonna get wrong. We’re not gonna do it right in the beginning. And are we committed to coming back around and repairing that- that reconnecting conversation and reconnecting?
John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and we have a panel of guests in the studio today, Jim and Jean Daly, along with Dr. Greg Smalley and his wife Erin. And they’re reviewing a variety of topics from a book Jim wrote called The Healthy Marriage Devotional: 365 Daily Inspirations to Bring You Closer Together. Stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast to learn more about this terrific resource. And now the conclusion of the conversation on today’s Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Erin: So Jim, this is a tender question. Um, there was a time in your marriage where you didn’t feel like you were a good enough wife. And of course we’ve all been there. I’ve been there. Um, what were you thinking and feeling at the time and then how did Jean handle your heart?
Jim: That was early on, like a year into our marriage. Two years.
Jean: Yes. Probably three years actually. And there was a lot going on. We had made a major move. Uh, Jim had made a career change. I had a job change. There were significant things going on, uh, with one of my brothers. We- my workplace was really unhealthy and we had left- the- the move, we had made some really sweet friendships as couples.
Erin: Yeah. That’s hard.
Jean: And, uh, a couple of those, two of the women, they were my friends, but they were really mentors to me. They’d been married longer and had children. So there was a- oh, and you know, the honeymoon period was over and the newlywed.
Jim: What?
Jean: Period had passed-
Jim: It hasn’t ended for me.
Greg: Jim’s off riding his motorcycle, who knows where.
Jean: There was a lot going on. And as I look back, I was, uh, feeling emotionally isolated.
Greg: Okay.
Jean: And, um, our marriage was not good. It- it- we did not know how to talk to each other. We- we didn’t bring those tools into our marriage that was, um, modeled for us. And, um, I remember one night we were laying in bed probably as far apart as possible, in the bed.
Greg: Without falling-
Jean: Yes.
Greg: Rolling off-
Erin: Was the pillow wall there?
Jean: Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. And- and a few cats in the middle.
Jim: That was the problem.
Jean: Okay. But I- I started crying in bed. And Jim, do you wanna share what-
Jim: Well, I mean, I didn’t understand what was happening, you know. There is that male-
Greg: Did you lose your wedding ring?
Jean: Yeah. Did you flush your ring again?
Jim: Obliviousness. You know, that you- you’re not as tied in.
Jean: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, she- even hearing her articulate those things that we were facing, that she was facing, I was not clued into any of that, which is terrible when you think about it. And so I just felt like, “Man, what is she melting down about?” And, uh-
Greg: What did I do this time?
Jim: So I- I just remember saying, you know, that, well, divorce won’t be an option, so we gotta figure out how to do this better than- kind of matter of fact.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: And, you know, that was many years ago, 38 years now and, uh, you know, we’re still working on things, which is what you do but- but, um, you know, I- I think we’ve had a incredible life and a great, uh, run together.
Greg: So when, so in those moments though, so coach us guys, so tears crying in the bed. Like, what- what is it that your hope, what- what is your hope in that moment? Like, how- how do we show up?
Jim: It’s a crying out.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Yeah.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: Literally.
Greg: Yeah. Yeah.
Erin: What would you say Jean, for you?
Jean: In that moment? And I did say to Jim, I- I don’t feel like I’m a good wife.
Jim: Right.
Jean: I felt like a failure as a wife. I felt like our marriage was failing and what I needed, and Jim did assure me that, you know, “I’m here for you. Divorce isn’t an option.”
Greg: Yeah. You’re amazing wife, yeah.
Jean: “Let’s figure this out together.” So what I needed was empathy.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Yeah.
Greg: Not to feel alone.
Jean: Right. Not to feel alone. And that partnership and that- that reassurance, “We’re gonna make it. Let’s- let’s get some resources, some help, and we’re gonna figure this out together.”
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: I love that. There, there is something about, just in those moments, again, will you be there for me? And, and I love Jim, how you showed up in that way. I know God’s been, the- the verse that- that He’s had me just kinda locked into lately is, uh, Ephesians 5:26 and 27, which has always been super confusing. ’cause it says, “To make her holy.” So this is Paul talking about Jesus in His bride, the Church. So, “To make her holy, cleansing her by the washing of the water through the Word, to present her to himself as a radiant Church without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.” Like I read that and go, “Okay.” Like, I don’t connect with any of those words. And so historically I would see that. Here I’m the marriage guy, the VP of Marriage and Focus. And I would just go, “Okay, I’m sure it means something, whatever.” But I- I finally went, I probably should figure out what- what is- why is this even here?
Jim: Yeah-
Greg: And what is so cool is that all this verse is really saying is that Jesus as husband to the Church, what He’s doing is He’s nurturing her to help her become the best version of who God created her to be. Like He’s- He’s unlocking all these gifts and talents and now helping her to become that best version, to release her ’cause you think about what Jesus ultimately did with the Church through the Great Commission, is He unleashed His Bride, the Church into this world who so desperately needed a savior. And- and when I finally understood that, that was a huge paradigm shift for me because it made me go, “You know what, why we do all this stuff, why we use the tools and create the safety and sacrifice and all this stuff as a husband, it really is to help our wives.” So for me to help Erin become that best version, to see what- how God’s gonna unleash her, every time that you showed up and you comforted, you know, Jean, you look for the ring somewhere in the toilet that was lost. Like, I think that’s all done to help her become that best version kind of, because at the end of my life, and I want- I wanna- my hope is that Erin will be able to say, “You know what, Greg made a difference in my life. Like being married to Greg made a difference.” In a good way. (Laughs).
Erin: Yes.
Greg: Not in a bad way.
Jim: That’s a good goal.
Erin: And vice versa. I- I, that’s my goal is to know that I made a difference in your life and improved your life.
Jim: Yeah. Well, Greg and Erin and my lovely Jean, it was so good to have this chat with you. The last couple of days
Erin: Was so fun, so fun.
Jim: I hope it was helpful for people. And you know, uh, the goal here is just to be here for you. If you’re in that spot where you need help, give us a call.
John: We do hope that you’ll contact us here at Focus on the Family. If we can be of any benefit to you and your marriage or family. We have so many resources here for you. Um, like The Healthy Marriage Devotional that Jim wrote. Uh, of course we have our counseling team or our Hope Restored Marriage Intensives for couples who may feel like they just need to walk away from their marriage. Uh, if that’s you or someone you know, please contact us about Hope Restored. God does miraculous things in relationships, uh, of couples who attend Hope Restored. We just have to seek help and He answers. Our number is 800-232-6459. Uh, to learn about any of those resources, uh, again, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: And let me put this challenge out. If you and your spouse are in a good place, let me encourage you to partner with Focus on the Family to help strengthen other marriages. Uh, that’s the ministry we do together. Be part of it. I think this accrues to your account in heaven. I know it does. So jump on board with us. Be a partner to pray for us and to financially invest in those families.
John: Yeah. Do so today, uh, when you call 800-A-FAMILY, or of course online, you’ll find us at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And when you make a generous donation of any amount to support the ministry, either a monthly pledge or a one-time gift, we’ll say thank you for joining the support team by sending a copy of The Healthy Marriage Devotional that Jim wrote. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
