Woman: All right. Nearly 2:00 AM. You got this. You can finish any science project before it’s due. Already tucked the kids into bed. Who was I supposed to call? No, I just need to finish this. Oh. And I’ve got the kids lunches tomorrow. This house needs to be cleaned. Did I eat today? There’s just so much to do, and I’m nowhere near done, and I just wish I could do more.
John Fuller: Well, we all get caught up in the busyness of life, don’t we? And you probably feel, uh, with some frequency like you’re running on empty. Uh, today’s Focus on the Family with Jim Daly is for you as we explore important rhythms that will help you have a more healthy, more meaningful life. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, do you ever get caught in that, uh, exchange with somebody where they say, “How you doing? ‘Oh, I’m so busy…’” You just go into this whole litany of 14 things you gotta do?
John: And then they respond-
Jim: (laughs).
John: … like, “Oh, you’re busy. Well, let me you-”
Jim: Yeah, let me one-up you.
John: “… how busy I am.”
Jim: Yes. So.
John: Yeah, absolutely.
Jim: I, I’m guilty of that because, uh-
John: Totally.
Jim: … you know, usually I’m pretty busy. And you, “Boy, you want to know about it? I’ll tell you.”
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jim: “You know, I’m flying here. I’m going there.” And, you know, we wear it like a badge of honor. But, uh, our guest today is gonna challenge that and say, are you sure that’s healthy (laughs)? And I, I think I’m at the point of saying, amen. I don’t think that’s the-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … way we should go. And, uh, the problem of course, is that that lifestyle is unsustainable. I don’t think it’s what the Lord wanted for us when he talks about, uh, bringing life to the full and what does that mean?
John: Yeah.
Jim: And we’re gonna explore that today.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And Debra Fileta has been with us a number of times. She’s always very popular as a guest. Uh, she’s an author, speaker, a counselor, and, uh, she writes and speaks about marriage and relationships. And today we’ll hear about a book, uh, that really is so deep and rich. Jim, I don’t know how much of it we’ll be able to cover today and next time, but it’s called Soul Care: *Find Life-Giving Rhythms *Live Restored *Avoid Burnout and *Discover Unspeakable Joy. And we’ve got details about Debra and the book at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Debra, welcome back to Focus. It’s so good to have you.
Debra Fileta: It’s good to be back with you both.
Jim: (laughs). It’s so fun. Uh, well, we kind of set it up there. Maybe you can bounce off of that, this idea of busyness and the badge of honor. And I think the American culture, uh, really raises that to a high standard, don’t we?
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: That, maybe too high. We kind of put it out there for people to see how busy we are. So you can tell us how good we are.
Debra: Yeah. I think we tend to value the amount of things that we have going on, um, rather than the quality of the things that we have going on. It’s not about the quantity. It’s about doing what God has called us to do. Um, and I think you’re right when you said it’s not sustainable, and that’s the bottom line here. You know, as a licensed counselor, I see so many people coming into my office, high capacity, ministry, executive pastors, senior pastors, people who are burnt out.
Jim: Let, let’s explore that a little bit, that burnout feeling. I’m not even sure… I think I have been there. But again, not being trained in that way to really understand it. I’m not sure that many of us as lay people can know if we’re on the edge of burnout.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What are some of the descriptors for a person who’s on the burnout glide path?
Debra: Yeah. Well, let me start by asking a question. The first question I would ask is, how full do you feel? If zero is, I feel totally depleted in life, and 10 is I feel filled, what number would you give yourself? I think that’s a really important question to ask. And then you wanna start looking for symptoms of burnout, which are things like excessive fatigue, even after you’ve had a good night’s rest. But I think one of the telltale symptoms is you start feeling apathy towards the things that you used to love doing-
Jim: Huh. That’s a sign.
Debra: … and the things you used to be excited about.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Debra: Let’s say you used to be excited about, “You know, I’m so, so looking forward to going to work and helping people.” And now I’m like, “Ah, I don’t really feel like doing this anymore. I’m tired.” Y- you start feeling a little bit resentful, a little bit bitter, a little bit jaded. Um, honestly, can also come with physical symptoms with as far as headaches and-
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: … muscle aches and pains and all the different things that you don’t know what to attribute it to, but it’s causing you to feel depleted and you wanna be on the lookout for those kind of things.
Jim: Yeah. It’s important because it’s part of soul care, the title of your book. Let’s talk about that. The, the title, Soul Care, it, you know, we’ve got self-care and we’ve got other things like that. So what is the differentiator with soul care? As Christians, we love that, soul-
Debra: Yeah. I know-
Jim: … we love the souls.
Debra: … you’re right. You’re right. I think Christians tend to be, um, a little bit scared of the word self-care-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Debra: … because of the focus on self. And, and here’s the thing about it. The way that culture defines self-care is superficial. It’s not enough to get a manicure, pedicure, take a warm bath if you’re not getting to the roots of the things that are draining you, as well as the roots of the things that are gonna fill you up. So even culture’s definition of self-care isn’t enough for us as Christians. We have to dig a little bit deeper. And Soul Care is birthed out of the six rhythms that Jesus Himself practiced to fill up during His time here on earth. And if Jesus Himself understood that He had human capacity and He had to honor that human capacity, though He was fully God, He was fully man. How much more do we have to have the humility to say, “I have a human capacity, and I, and I need to honor that.”
Jim: Yeah. And we’re gonna get to that because that’s the core of the book, right. The things that we can see that Jesus concentrated on to keep Himself in a good place-
Debra: Right.
Jim: … and how we can live in that way. And that’s why people need to stick with us ’cause we’re gonna talk about those six core areas. Before we get there, though, Jesus said in Mark 12, uh, about loving, you know, the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. We understand that one. Loving your neighbor has yourself-
John: Hmm.
Jim: … we don’t spend a lot of time thinking about that. Because on the one hand, we think loving ourselves as almost feels anti-Christian-
Debra: Right.
Jim: … to do that. What do you see in the healthy clinical sense of what the Lord was expressing there? What do we do in a healthy way to love ourselves and then loving our neighbor?
Debra: Well, I think the healthiest people are the ones who are the most filled up.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Debra: You know, empty people have a hard time focusing on others.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Debra: And I think sometimes we’re so afraid to be selfish that we self-neglect. Which-
Jim: And, and wear that is a badge of honor.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: Right?
Debra: Exactly. And self-neglect leads us to self-sabotage, because we’re empty. And, you know, the irony and all that, when I self-neglect, when I neglect my needs and I neglect what’s going on inside of me, I feel so burnt out and empty that the only person I can think of is myself.
Jim: Huh. Yeah.
Debra: You know, when you’re at your lowest point in life, you’re not thinking of others, you’re just thinking about how bad you feel, how empty you feel.
Jim: Well, it’s almost like you can’t think of others.
Debra: Exactly.
Jim: That’s your point.
Debra: Exactly. It becomes this vortex of selfishness in a different way. But I think the balance of that is learning to honor and address our needs-
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: … and how we can stay filled up so that we can continue to pour out in the way that God has called us. My dad used to always tell me growing up that human beings are like a well, and if you don’t keep filling up your well, you’re eventually gonna run dry, and you’re not gonna have anything to offer the people in need. And I, I see this as a message specifically for the caregivers out there. Those of us, the counselors, the pastors, those in, in healthcare, teachers, ministers who are constantly pouring out. We have to be even more intentional about making sure that we’re filled.
Jim: Yeah. That’s so good. In fact, in the book, he had a story of a pastor, a senior pastor who did experience burnout. Describe, and of course you’ve changed his name, and I get all that to protect him.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: But describe his situation and what, what was the remedy?
Debra: You know, he was at the height of ministry. He h- had this thriving church that was growing in a, in an unexpected way, but he was on the verge of burnout. When he came in to see me, he was done with ministry. He was feeling so bad emotionally and physically, so exhausted. And here’s what it comes down to. Before you can start practicing healthy rhythms, you have to get to the root of why you don’t practice them to begin with. Because if I just tell you, here’s a list of healthy rhythms, why don’t you go ahead and practice them, be a little bit less busy, drink a little bit more water, take some more vacations. If you don’t get to the root of your underlying belief system and why you tend to neglect yourself to begin with, you’re just gonna repeat the same patterns with time. So I had to sit with him and really start to dig, “Why do you neglect yourself? Why are you burnt out?” And, you know, we started investigating and unpacking, which really, that’s what counseling is. You kind of start to unpack-
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: … what might be underneath the surface. And this, this man grew up in a family where his stepfather was so strict, he was such a perfectionist. And if you messed up, it was over for you. There was physical abuse, emotional abuse. So he learned to just put his needs on the back burner and focus on doing the right thing in the right way for his father and not rocking the boat in any way.
Jim: To avoid punishment.
Debra: To avoid punishment.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Wow.
Debra: So here he was, years later, doing the same thing in ministry, seeing what everybody else needed, trying to be perfect, not rocking the boat, not focused on his needs until he got to a place of complete depletion.
Jim: Yeah. That’s so amazing. You know, Debra, so often, uh, you know, we are an organization based on marriage and parenting. And of course, Dr. Dobson’s background was PhD in child development. And sometimes these things are so subtle, it, it doesn’t sound subtle when you unfold it-
Debra: Right.
Jim: … for your client.
Debra: Right.
Jim: But then it just hits you. How do we understand how those subtleties of our childhood and the things we experience end up becoming this huge weight in our lives? How do we even start to think about the behaviors that we’re acting out and where, where they’re connected?
Debra: Yeah. Well, the first question to ask yourself is what’s the belief system here? “Why am I doing more than I should? Why do I always say yes? Why do I take more on my plate?” And we might find that underneath the surface, there’s a belief system that thinks, “If I don’t do it, nobody else will. Or I have to be the one to do this so that I have value in my life.”
Jim: Affirmation.
Debra: “I wanna feel valued, I wanna feel affirmed.” There’s a belief system that we carry, and oftentimes it’s rooted in our trauma rather than in God’s truth-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Debra: … who says that we are already loved, we are already valuable, we are already enough because of Jesus. And when we function out of the belief system of trauma, we find ourselves engaging in unhealthy patterns.
Jim: Wow. I mean, that, that’s something for us to take, uh, inventory of, you know, in our lives. What motivates us? Why are we behaving the way we are?
Debra: Right.
Jim: Especially for those of us that are Christian, because we should be the healthiest people on the face of this earth-
Debra: I know.
Jim: … emotionally.
Debra: Can you imagine…
Jim: And often we’re not.
Debra: I know. Can you imagine if the church took on the call to get healthy?
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: How that could overflow into our world?
Jim: Yeah.
John: Hmm.
Jim: That is so good. Alright. You opened that door on the six principles that you’ve learned that Jesus demonstrated for us. And we’ll get through all of them. Uh, let’s start with nourish. Uh, what does it mean to be nourished?
Debra: That was a unique place to start for me, because I think the world h- helps us focus on our physical wellbeing, probably to a fault. But in church, we often neglect our physical wellbeing. But how can we go to Judea and Samaria and the ends of the earth when we’re sick and tired and depleted? Right?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Debra: Our physical health, our temple is such an important part of having healthy rhythms. And Jesus Himself stopped to take care of His body. The Bible says He was wearied with His journey. And so He would stop. It talks about Him making time to eat and drink, and making sure His disciples were nourishing their bodies. Coming from a Middle Eastern family and thinking of Jesus saying to the disciples, “Come and eat,” was a really, uh, refreshing look at Him because He actually cared about the state of their body because He knew that that was the path and the avenue to being able to do everything that God had called them to do.
John: Hmm. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, and our guest today is Debra Fileta. And, uh, you can find out more about her book Soul Care when you get in touch with us. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Debra, you mentioned, uh, your, your heritage Egyptian, and I remember going to, uh, someone’s home, Peter, uh, who grew up in Lebanon, and oh my goodness. I mean, coming over for…
Debra: (laughs).
Jim: You know, in the States, we say, “Hey, you wanna come over for dinner?” They spent four days getting ready to do this meal for us.
Debra: I believe it.
Jim: And the homemade hummus and the breads and the, you know, dates and the kitchen was fully decked out. Every counter had heaps of food. I’m going, “Peter, my goodness, you could feed a hundred people. ‘This is what we do.’”
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: “We wanna make sure you have enough.”
Debra: “We wanna make sure you’re nourished.”
Jim: I was like, “Enough!?” I mean-
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: … but it was amazing. And I, I think for those of us that do the drive-through mostly whatever that might be, you know-
John: (laughs).
Debra: Right. Right.
Jim: … pick up the already cooked chicken and get Costco and get it to the table. Describe for us that culture of a meal.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, it’s different. We don’t, we don’t possess that understanding of what it means to sit-
Debra: Right.
Jim: … and eat together the way the Lord did with His disciples.
Debra: You’re right.
Jim: It, it’s a gathering. It’s something special.
Debra: Well, first of all, it was a life-giving meal because of the people that were there, but also because of the types of foods that were being eaten. I mean, we’ve really strayed from that in modern America, 2024, the things that we’re eating today are mostly processed and unhealthy, rather than whole foods that nourish us. They might be foods that fill us, but they’re not foods that nourish us. And, you know, I- interestingly enough, we work against God when we’re not taking care of our bodies, whether it be not eating good foods, whether it be not drinking enough water. I had an experience where I was out on a ministry trip and I was dehydrated, and I started having heart palpitations. And, you know, right away you’re like, this is spiritual warfare. It might not be a demon. It might be that you’re just dehydrated. You know, sometimes we’re, our, our blood sugar is low, we’re not eating healthy foods, and then we blame the enemy for it, rather than seeing our role in the process of having a healthy body.
Jim: Well, I want to shout out to your husband, who’s a doctor. You called him, right?
Debra: I called him.
Jim: “Hun, you need to pray for me. This is spiritual warfare.” He said, “How much water have had?” (laughs)
Debra: Exactly. “What’s going on? How much water have you had?”
Jim: I like that (laughs).
John: Start with the basics.
Jim: Yeah. I-
Debra: Start with the basics.
Jim: … think that’s.
Debra: And how often do we neglect the basics in the-
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: … caring of our souls?
Jim: Yeah. So that’s the nourishment side of it. The physical nourishment of what we need to do as believers and followers of Christ, because he again, demonstrated that, as you said through the scripture. The next one is rest. This is probably one of the more difficult ones, going back to our initial conversation about being busy as a badge of honor-
Debra: Right.
Jim: … to really be able to rest. And, you know, we think of Jesus as on 24/7.
Debra: Right.
Jim: You know, people were, uh, in firmed and seeking Him out by the hundreds, sometimes the thousands. And it, it seems to give us the impression that He was always available. “Just push the buzzer and I’ll open the door.” That’s not really what happened.
Debra: No, I think we give ourselves the impression that He was busy and always going and always pouring out. But when you look at scripture and, and the most beautiful part of writing this book was looking at Jesus through the lens of soul care. He was so good at it. And things that you noticed that you would’ve never noticed before had you not been looking for those things. Um, Jesus was really good at pulling away and taking breaks. Um, He was really good at responding to His body’s exhaustion. “I’m tired. I’m weary with my journey. What am I gonna do? I’m not gonna push through. I’m going to rest. I’m gonna honor my capacity.” My favorite verse was when Jesus took a nap. He climbed on the boat after a long day of ministry, and instead of just pushing through and doing more, you’d think He’d tell himself, “I only have three years.” Right. He started His ministry at 30. We know he was crucified at 33. You’d think He’d say, “I only got three years. I gotta push through.”
Jim: “I’m not gonna sleep.” (laughs).
Debra: Yeah. “I’m not gonna sleep.” He went on the boat, climbed down into the hull and took a nap.
John: Now there’s an element of trusting God in that. I mean, Jesus modeled that for us, but it’s really hard to consider rest as somehow related to trusting God and acting in faith.
Debra: You’re right.
John: How, how do I do that when I stop?
Debra: I was working with a client recently who said, “I feel guilty when I stop to rest and take naps.” So we really had to dig, what is the underlying belief system that’s causing you to feel guilty? And she said, “I don’t feel valued when I’m not doing something. I feel like I have to be the one to do, do, do, do, do.” And I challenged her, “Isn’t there a sliver of pride in that thinking that it’s on us to do, rather than when I close my eyes and rest, I serve a God who is bigger than me and He’s able to take the little that I can give Him and multiply it.”
John: Hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: “It’s actually on Him, not on me.”
John: Hmm.
Debra: And I think sometimes when we have a hard time resting, there’s a little bit of pride underneath that, rather than trusting the Lord.
Jim: You know, so often Debra, and I’ve seen this personally, a friend of mine who, he had never shared this before, but as a 7-year-old boy, he was molested by a neighbor. And, y- you know, as an adult, he was type A, high achiever. And it was so courageous of him because at one point he told me, he goes, “You’re the first human being I’ve ever said this to. But I think I wake up every day trying to feel clean.”
John: Hmm.
Debra: Hmm.
Jim: “And the only way I feel like I can get clean is if I work harder.”
John: Hmm.
Debra: Trying to prove himself.
Jim: Isn’t that interesting? And it gets back to the point we made earlier, these connections that happen to us.
Debra: Right.
Jim: And then how it translates into our actions many years later perhaps, this struggle to feel clean and have to get rid of what was ugly-
Debra: Right.
Jim: … and to work my way through that.
John: Hmm.
Jim: I mean, what a tumultuous tortuous-
Debra: I know.
Jim: … place to be in.
Debra: It’s funny, because sometimes we look at the success or the good behavior as a positive thing, but if it’s not rooted in healthy beliefs, it’ll always lead us down an unhealthy path, which ends up in burnout-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Debra: … which ends up in us being in a place where our light is no longer shining.
Jim: Yeah. When it comes to this idea of rest, I feel pretty good about this, honestly. And I, you know, I’m trying to be objective with my self-assessment.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: But you mentioned in the book, you know, try to live your life at 85%.
Debra: Doesn’t it sound like it’s-
John: (laughs).
Debra: … something a Olympic coach would tell you, right?
Jim: Right. Yeah. But I like that. I, I feel like that’s what I try to do.
Debra: I’m glad to hear that.
Jim: I- it’s just, I think it’s always good when you get reinforcement-
Debra: Yes.
Jim: … from an expert. But I, you know, I don’t, I, I think Jean would often say, “You’re kind of type B in certain ways.” I can be type A in other ways, but.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: You know, I, I try to live a type B-
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: … because I think it’s healthy. Y- you leave some capacity, and I don’t always do it perfectly.
Debra: Right.
Jim: But the point is, I think generally I actually strive to do that.
Debra: Well, if you think of our emotional energy like a budget, we all know that living at a hundred percent max of your budget is unhealthy. I wouldn’t tell you spend every penny of your paycheck, because what happens when unexpected needs arise? You can’t save for the future when you’re living at max capacity. Our emotional energy is very similar. And we have to honor that and make sure we have margin. One thing that was really neat when I was, um, processing and writing Soul Care, I often tell my clients the 85% concept, we wanna go far, not just fast. So we wanna live at 85%. Make sure you have extra space. When I thought about the concept of the Sabbath, there’s one day of rest out of seven. When you calculate that out in percentage, guess what it comes out to?
Jim: It’d be about 15 to 18%?
Debra: 85%.
John: Hmm.
Jim: Okay. The opposite of that.
Debra: The opposite. It, it…
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: 15 to 18% rest, 85% work.
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: So it’s that concept that I think there’s something really spiritual underneath the surface, because God understands the way our bodies work and what our bodies need.
Jim: Oh, I think it’s so perfect. Uh, you experienced a season in your life where you battled with insomnia. I think that’s called growing older (laughs).
Debra: I sure hope not.
Jim: You’re not that old but, man, I mean, so many of us over that maybe-
John: (laughs). Ah, golly.
Jim: … 40 line, you start sleeping a little more restlessly. It’s like, for my pattern, it’s real good sleep at the beginning.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: And then three o’clock in the morning, I kind of get a little more restless, start thinking about some things I need to do, and, uh, that can, I can struggle with that. But speak to that moment in your own life with insomnia and what that signal was for you.
Debra: Mm-hmm. Well, one of the things that I challenge people to take seriously in Soul Care is the rhythms of sleep that they have. I think we get into a pattern of, “Well, nobody sleeps well, and this is just part of life.” But we don’t realize when we’re not sleeping well, we’re not functioning well either. We’re not making good choices. Our judgment is depleted when we’re tired, our response is slower when we’re tired. So for me, understanding that insomnia was a signal, like, “What’s going on here is, are my chemicals off? Is this hormonal? Is this anxiety? Is there something that I need to adjust underneath the surface?” Rather than just ignoring it, pushing through, covering it up, actually figuring out what is this telling my body and what do I need to do differently to respond?
Jim: You know, you’re seeing people that have come to that conclusion in, in your practice as a counselor. What percentage of people, broadly you think are in that spot where they’re going, “Okay, this might require some help.” I know that’s not a scientific question ’cause it’s hard to guess, but I, I would think it’d be on the smaller end.
Debra: I think it’s on the smaller end.
Jim: 10, 15% that are going-
Debra: I think-
Jim: … “Okay, I need to do something.”
Debra: The more likely response is to push through.
John: Hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: And that’s the unfortunate thing.
Jim: And just pile it on. And then 20 years later you have a real massive problem.
Debra: I would say maybe even two years later.
Jim: Okay. Yeah.
Debra: Yeah. Absolutely.
John: So, so I’m thinking of somebody as you raised that good question, Jim. I’m thinking Debra, of somebody that I know, he’s late twenties and he goes to sleep around 11:00 at night and gets up at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning. That’s it. He sleeps three or four hours a night.
Debra: Wow.
John: And, and I thought that’s a little unusual.
Debra: It is unusual.
John: And he seems to have accepted that he, he goes running at 3:00 in the morning just to deal with that. So what do you, what would your guess be in terms of how I can help him see, maybe this isn’t normal?
Debra: Yeah. Well, I, I would challenge him that this is a signal of something going on underneath the surface-
John: Hmm.
Jim: Hmm.
Debra: … um, because we are supposed to have healthy rhythms of sleep. We were made for healthy rhythms of sleep, we’re created, the circadian rhythm of day and night. And so rather than just think, “This is how I am,” we need to start investigating and figure out first step, seeing a doctor, second step, seeing a counselor and trying to get to the root of what some of this might be, whether it’s physical or whether it’s psychological and emotional and something that needs to be addressed.
John: Yeah. This kinda goes back to your first, one of your first observations. “Why am I this way? Why am I letting this happen?”
Debra: Right. Right.
John: Ah.
Jim: Yeah. And it could be first step might be pray and, uh, ask the Lord to reveal to you-
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jim: … what’s happening there. And I think that’s a good place to end, Debra. Um, Jesus’s modeling, we’re gonna come back next time and explore some of the other attributes that you’ve highlighted. But ending, I think on the, the high note of God’s creation and what He wants from us and what He modeled for us, Jesus did model emotional health and wellbeing. What are those snippets that you could close here at the end and encourage people to think about as they, uh, live their day-to-day life and want to honor God-
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: … and how they do that?
Debra: I would say the best way that we can continue to pour out in the way that God has called us to, in the most effective way is to make sure that we remain filled because our level of effectiveness is directly correlated to our level of fullness.
Jim: Yeah. That is so good, Debra. This is, uh, really inspiring.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, uh, you know, I think people, some people will take it as too big a challenge. I hope other people, uh, take it as, “Wow, okay, this is what we’re aiming for. This is the kind of life we should lead so that we do have capacity to love our neighbor as ourself.” And that’s the goal, right?
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: It’s an honoring thing to live our lives that way so that we can, uh, do what the Lord has called us to do. This wonderful book, Soul Care, as we often do, if you can help us financially a gift of any amount, uh, we’ll send you a copy of Debra’s book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry and helping others, kind of helping your neighbor, right? And, uh, you can do that monthly as Jean and I do. I know John, you and Dena do that.
John: We, uh, yeah, we contribute regularly.
Jim: And (laughs), yeah, we appreciate that.
John: Yeah.
Jim: But, uh, be a part of it and we’ll say thanks again with Debra’s great book.
John: Hmm. And the title again is Soul Care: *Find life-Giving Rhythms *Live Restored *Avoid Burnout and *Discover Unspeakable Joy. Get your copy of the book when you donate generously to Focus on the Family. Uh, support this show in this ministry with a monthly pledge or one-time gift, and we’ll send that out to you. We also have a wonderful counseling team made available, uh, to everybody who calls, uh, through the generosity of our donor community. So, uh, if you would like to talk with somebody about something in your own life, um, if you’re struggling to find that Godly rhythm, uh, that Debra talked about, then give us a call. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459. Or you can donate and find resources and, uh, connect with our counseling team through our website. And that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Alright, Debra, we’re going like nail you to the chair there and we’ll come back next time and talk more about this great, great concept. Thank you.
Debra: I’m glad to be here. Looking forward to it.
John: And plan now to join us next time for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
