Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Preview:

Melanie Shankle: She was not a calming presence. And then it became an emotional thing where I can’t have my mom projecting the same toxic things on my daughter that she did on me during my childhood.

End of Preview

John Fuller: That’s Melanie Shankle sharing ways that we can heal from generational trauma and protect the next generation. Welcome to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: You know, John, any good parent wants to stop the unhealthy patterns that we saw our parents doing to us, right? But it, that old adage that you don’t fall far from the tree is so true. There are things that I do behaviorally that I remember my dad doing-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Who was an alcoholic, and it’s not that. It’s just the attitude sometimes creeps in. And you got to, especially as a Christian, you got to arrest that thing and wrestle it down. But it’s hard because as children, we pick up habits, we pick up ways that we speak, and, uh, you know, those unhealthy things, the attitudes that we get from our parents, if we want to be healthy in Christ, we’ve got to capture those toxic things.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And make them healthy. And we’re gonna cover that today. You know, 1 Peter 1:18-19, and the producers pointed this out, it says, “We are ransom from the feudal ways of our forefathers.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Isn’t that a brilliant scripture? That kind of makes the entire point, we don’t have to live in the sin or the darkness of what they put on us as their children. We can rise above it.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Romans 8:1, “We’re, we’re set free in Christ, uh, for freedom.” So our guest has written a book about her story. Um, it addresses generational issues as a daughter and a wife and a mom. And we’re very pleased to have Melanie Shankle with us. Um, she’s a mom, author. Uh, she is a co-host of the Big Boo Cast. Uh, a great podcast. Um, she’s written-

Jim: It’s not about scaring people, right? (laughs) The Big Boo-

Melanie: It’s not. It is, I know. It sounds like it, but it’s not. No.

Jim: Okay, okay. Good (laughs).

John: Yeah. She’s written a very personal, insightful and, uh, hopeful book, uh, about her experiences. It’s called, Here Be Dragons: Treading the Deep Waters of Motherhood, Mean Girls, and Generational Trauma. And you can find more about the book and about Melanie at our website. We’ve got the links at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Melanie, welcome back. It’s been many years, but it’s so good to have you back at Focus on the Family.

Melanie: Been a lot of years.

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: I’m so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Jim: Yeah. And man, you’re vibrant and doing well, and-

Melanie: Well, I’m trying.

Jim: … that’s a great part of the story and I could just see it in your face.

Melanie: Oh, thank you.

Jim: The healthiness in your life. Seriously.

Melanie: Thank you. That’s awesome.

Jim: The smile.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Uh, let’s start with generational trauma. Uh, you know, many of us, if not all of us, experience some degree of that.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Because parenting isn’t perfect. We’re not perfect. We’re sinful people. We get that. Hopefully as Christian parents, we’ve had that opportunity to say, “I’m so sorry I did that.” Fill it in.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: Mine was, “I’m sorry I responded with anger.”

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know? And I, I’ve never hit my kids or anything like that, but it’s just the emotional response.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I think I saw my dad in that.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: To be honest with you.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But what’s your definition of generational trauma?

Melanie: I think generational trauma, true, because I think, here’s the thing, no parent is gonna be perfect. We can try all we want. We’re gonna make mistakes. Our kids will be happy to tell us the mistakes that we’ve made if we ask. But to me, trauma is when something has been undone. When something in that parenting cycle has established, um, uh, insecurity in you, um, where there’s been, whether it could be alcoholism, it can be drug abuse, it could be mental illness. I mean, it takes a lot of forms, but it’s something that actually causes trauma in the home that maybe keeps a child from developing in a normal way.

Jim: Typically emotionally.

Melanie: Exactly.

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: I think emotionally, um, you know, and there’s physical obviously as well, but I think that there’s so much emotional damage that can be done that a lot of times you don’t even realize. Because one of the things I think is you, you have to, something has to be really wrong in your childhood for you to say, “This isn’t normal,” because it’s all you know, and it’s normal to you.

Jim: You wrote this book, um, but you were going to write this book about your daughter, Caroline.

Melanie: I was.

Jim: And something derailed that. Describe that for the listeners.

John: Mm-hmm.

Melanie: So originally the book that I pitched when I was gonna write this book, I had been on a podcast and I had talked about my daughter, Caroline, her sophomore year of high school. Just went through a really horrific mean girl experience and just where it was relentless. Um, she faced it every day. And as I talked about it, ’cause I speak at different events, and every now and then, I would bring it up and I would have all these women that would come forward. And the story was, my daughter’s going through this too. My daughter went through this. I went through this. And I was like, oh, we have a mean girl epidemic. So I thought, I’m gonna write this book about mean girls and what that looks like and how we try to not raise mean girls. I didn’t realize until I started to piece together this story that I was like, where does this go back from? Because I thought the thing is, is that mean mothers are gonna raise mean daughters. And that’s when it dawned on me that I was like, my mom was my first mean girl.

Jim: Melanie, when you think about that, I, I, it’s hard for me to believe a mom that is a mean mom.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Even though she is.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: Like, it’s a, why would you purposefully get up in the morning and say, “I’m gonna do everything mean today to my daughter.”

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: They’re not thinking that way.

Melanie: No.

Jim: But it’s these little snipes and these little statements and, and other stuff.

Melanie: That’s it.

Jim: Give me a description of that, what that looks like.

Melanie: I mean, for me, as a child growing up, I think she was always quick to point out all the ways that I did something wrong, the way that I didn’t measure up. She would have such an overreaction to anything that I did or didn’t do. Um, my parents were divorced when I was eight. And so there was a lot of, I would spend the weekends with my dad and I learned quickly if I came home, and she would say, “Did you have a good time?” And if I said yes, I knew that that was-

Jim: That spun around.

Melanie: That spun around, and it was gonna end with her getting in bed and maybe not getting out for days.

Jim: So even that, you had to pretend, “No, it was a horrible time with dad.”

Melanie: That’s it.

Jim: And he was terrible.

Melanie: I couldn’t ever be myself.

Jim: Yeah. Wow. That’s tough.

Melanie: And so you learn to manage that. And that’s a lot for a nine, 10, 11-year-old girl to manage.

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: And now, I will say that for my mom, I don’t, I agree with you. I don’t think that there was this thing of I’m gonna be mean. I don’t, I don’t know that anybody really thinks, “I’m gonna be mean.” I just think it’s a reaction out of your own. For my mom, there was mental illness. Um, but I also think it’s insecurities and-

Jim: Well, and that’s what makes it so difficult. That’s the, the auto wreck I’m talking about. That’s what makes it so difficult-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … to, as a child particularly to know, is what I’m seeing actually true.

Melanie: Yes.

Jim: And then what I believe actually true. Um, the book title, I mean, this is a good place to mention this-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … before we unpack your story. Um, Here Be Dragons. Now, let me give my my brogue to that.

Melanie: (laughs)

Jim: Here be the dragons, right?

Melanie: That’s good. Listen, I’ll take you on tour with me.

Jim: But yeah, I can do just that part (laughs).

Melanie: Uh-huh.

Jim: But what does it mean? And I know.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I think the audience is really gonna be intrigued by this, ’cause it’s an interesting insight.

Melanie: It’s, so years ago, I read an article and it talked about how in ancient medieval times when people would set sail across the ocean to explore new lands, to find new territories, that they would make their ancient maps. You know, before we had Apple Maps that told us you have four stoplights to get to where you’re going.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Melanie: They would chart these maps, and what they would write if there was a place where there had been danger, where maybe another ship had sunk or disappeared, if they had seen something, if sailors had seen something that seems scary, they would mark it in Latin, “Here be dragons.”

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: And it was just their way of saying, “Be careful. There’s danger up ahead. There’s something unknown up ahead.” And so when I read that, what really resonated with me is like, isn’t that our whole life? That we’re, it’s all this unexplored territory that we all have this map of our life, and we never know when the dragons may show up.

Jim: Or where they’re located.

Melanie: Or where they’re located.

Jim: I mean, I, I just think that it’s, you, you have very creative book titles, by the way.

Melanie: Well, thank you (laughs).

Jim: Probably the most creative I’ve ever encountered. Yeah. But, uh, Here Be Dragons is right there with the rest of them. And, you know, tipping into that whole thing you mentioned in the book these experiences with your mom, and I’ll let you describe that.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But late night Walmart runs.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And late night restaurant runs, and-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, just kind of outta the ordinary things that a lot of kids go, “Wow, this is awesome.”

Melanie: That’s, well, and that’s what I thought.

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: You know? And that’s why, you know, it’s funny because even when my dad, I let him read the first draft of the book because I just said, “I want you to read this. I want you to know what’s in it. I want you to tell me if you-”

Jim: And your mom has passed away.

Melanie: My mom has passed away.

Jim: But your dad’s still alive?

Melanie: My dad’s still alive.

Jim: Okay. Okay.

Melanie: Um, my mom passing away is what freed me up. I used to say the title of this book would be, Now That Everybody Has Died, you know? Like, that would (laughs)-

Jim: Right. Yeah.

Melanie: Because I needed, um, but once she passed away, I was like, now I’m free to tell this story. Um, but I wanted my dad to read it. And he, he called me after and he said, “That was really powerful.” And he said, “There was a lot of that I didn’t know.” And it was funny because as a kid, I didn’t know that it wasn’t normal. So my mom sometimes would have these, and now I know it’s bipolar, but this was the eighties and nobody was talking about bipolar. You didn’t hear those conversations. She wasn’t diagnosed. So she would wake us up and be like, “Let’s, I wanna paint the kitchen. Let’s paint the kitchen.”

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: And so 10 o’clock at night, we would, and it was the eighties, so that meant we stenciled like little geese wearing hats-

Jim: Right.

Melanie: … on the kitchen border, you know.

Jim: It was fun.

Melanie: It was fun. And then she would be like, “Let’s go get breakfast at Denny’s,” at two o’clock in the morning. And we would go and it felt exciting. And as a kid, you didn’t know, but then it would be followed up by days where she didn’t get outta bed where I would leave for school and she was in bed, and I would get home and she was still in bed, and the next day would be the same. But I didn’t know enough. I didn’t ever say to my dad, “Hey, mom’s in bed all the time,” because I just thought that’s what moms do.

Jim: And even that’s kind of interesting. You’re thinking, you know, there’d be a little bit of dialogue about that.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Especially with your dad trying to manage that.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I think if I were the father in that situation, I’d be, I’d be trying.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: But, you know, again, you’re just, this is coping.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Everybody’s coping.

Melanie: That’s it.

Jim: And you’re just going.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And you don’t even know what’s going on, again, as a child.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: Even as a teenager, you went off to college and met your friend, I think it was Gully.

Melanie: Gully. Yeah.

Jim: And, uh, you became involved in college ministry. Describe that turning point for you spiritually.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Now, emotionally, you have all this stuff going on. You’ve lived through this weird Topsy-Turvy bipolar environment.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: And then you go to college and you go, okay, it doesn’t really operate like this.

Melanie: Yeah. That’s, it was such an awakening for me. I, part of, for me, and you know, if people are listening out there, I think this is where there was so much of my mom, because she did have us in church every Sunday.

Jim: Okay.

Melanie: So it was this thing of you are, you’re living this weird life, but you’re like, but we go to church. And I do believe that my mom was a believer. I just think she wrestled with mental illness.

Jim: Oh, sure.

Melanie: There’s no doubt. But there was so much guilt and shame. Religion was something that she really used to make me feel like a failure and to make-

Jim: Ooh.

Melanie: … me feel like I couldn’t measure up. And I saw so much hypocrisy between what she professed to believe and the way she lived. So it just created a lot of anger in me.

Jim: Can I, let me interject there.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: ‘Cause people listening and watching on YouTube need to hear your answer to this.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: The fact that you were able to overcome that and not use that as your sweeping, uh, dismissal of religion.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: Oh, yeah? Forget that my mom was a hypocrite.

Melanie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jim: Or whatever that bitterness is. So how did you shake that off and say, “Okay, I can forgive that and embrace God and know that my mom did not always live like she should have,” and be okay with that?

Melanie: Yeah. I mean, I think for me, there was so much guilt and shame that I laugh, ’cause I’m like, I used to walk down every center aisle to get saved at every possible camp or whatever. Like I say, like Billy Graham would’ve been like, “Girl, you are good.”

Jim: You’re done.

Melanie: Like, you’re done. You’ve done it. But I was always searching because I wanted that. But for me, when I was at Texas A&M, I went to a Bible study called Breakaway. And the leader there at the time said, um, he talked about the grace and mercy of God, and that you can’t ever outrun the grace and mercy. And that no matter what you’ve done, you’re never too far gone. And that was what I needed to hear.

Jim: That made sense to you.

Melanie: That made sense to me. And so, to answer your question, at that moment, I realized Jesus is the thing that always holds. And people are gonna let you down. I mean, the church is made up of imperfect people, and the world is made up of imperfect people.

Jim: What, what would you say to that person that clings to that excuse so they don’t have to make a, a commitment to the Lord? You know-

Melanie: I mean, I-

Jim: Christians have just let me down, so I’m not gonna do it.

Melanie: I mean, I think it’s a cop out because you think people have let you down in a lot of areas of your life. I mean, that’s the truth. I mean, people have cheated, Christians and non-Christians, and it’s a shame. As Christians, you hope that we’re better. You’re hope that you’re led by the spirit and you’re-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Melanie: But we’re gonna make mistakes. And so I think to not give Jesus a chance, who is the creator of the universe, who knows you, who created you, is a total cop out.

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: To not say, “I’m gonna let you prove to me your love and your sustenance and the things you’re gonna bring me through,” because I think the whole story of my life is how over and over again, God has always brought beauty from the ashes of things that have burned down.

Jim: Perfect.

John: That is a powerful statement. And, uh, this is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Our guest today is Melanie Shankle, and she has, uh, a beautiful, uh, deep personal book that is so hope-filled. It’s called Here Be Dragons: Treading the Deep Waters of Motherhood, Mean Girls and Generational Trauma. Uh, get a copy from us here at Focus on the Family. The details are at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And, uh, along with coming to know Jesus, uh, during college, you met your husband, Perry, right?

Melanie: I did. Mm-hmm.

John: How did that happen, and, and what was the impact on you?

Melanie: So I met him at the very end of college. It was, I would say just in the nick of time, um-

John: (laughs)

Melanie: Literally a month before graduation, I had started to get involved with Breakaway, the Bible study that I mentioned earlier. But there was a small prayer group, and it met at a guy named Perry Shankle’s house. And my friend Jen said, “You need to come with me to this prayer group.” And so I did. And so I met Perry there briefly. And the funny thing is, is looking back, I remember everything about that meeting. I remember what he had on. I remember everything.

Jim: (laughs) Wow.

Melanie: And it wasn’t like love at first sight. It wasn’t that kind of thing. But it’s funny how like-

Jim: Just made an impression.

Melanie: For whatever reason, he just made an impression on me, um, mainly because he kept talking to me, and I was like, “Why are you talking to me?” Um, but then I ended up getting a job in San Antonio, and that’s where Perry was from. So I moved to San Antonio not knowing anyone. He moved back home. And a mutual friend said, “Y’all ought to hang out.” And so I was like, sure, I have nothing else to do. And so we started hanging out and we’re friends for about six months, and then ultimately realized, you know, oh, I think there’s something here. So, um, we dated for two more years and got married and we’ve been married for 28 years now.

Jim: Yeah. That’s fantastic.

John: Wow. Congratulations.

Jim: Now, the, again, the moment is when you bring Perry to your house.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … to meet your mom.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: I’m sure there was some time to meet your dad as well if Perry was on his game (laughs).

Melanie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. There was. Yes. Yes.

Jim: But, but describe, you know, even his observations and then his comments that he had afterward for you.

Melanie: Yeah. It was so interesting because when you bring a fresh set of eyes into a situation, and so Perry, you know, we were serious enough where he met, I think my dad came into town, um, with his wife, my stepmom, for a business trip. And then about two weeks later, Perry met my mom. And I had told him my backstory. And basically the picture my mom had painted for me, and I talk about this in the book, was that, you know, she tried to paint my dad as he had abandoned our family, he had left her for this other woman, um, that he really never cared about us. And I knew in my head, I was like, this doesn’t reconcile with a man who sees you every weekend and who calls you every night of your life, but do you call your mom a liar? I mean, how do you-

Jim: Yeah, it’s uncomfortable.

Melanie: It’s uncomfortable. And so I just kind of let it be. But after Perry met both of them, I never will forget. We went back to my apartment and we were sitting on the couch. And Perry is so discerning and always sees clearly into situations, and I didn’t know how much at that time, but he said, “Hey, I don’t think that what you’ve been told adds up.” He said, “There’s more to this story.” He said, “This doesn’t add up with the people I just met.”

Jim: Just his brief observation.

Melanie: That was it, that quick.

Jim: Wow.

Melanie: And so that opened up. And so he said, “I think you need to talk to your dad. I think you need to have an honest conversation with your dad.” So I asked my dad, he was gonna be back in town in a couple of weeks, and I said, “Can we go to lunch? I have some questions to ask you.” And at this point, I was 23. Um, and ironically, my mom came in to see me the weekend before, and I told her, I said, “I’m gonna have a conversation with dad. I just have a lot of questions.” And at that point, my mom confessed essentially that everything she had told me had been a lie growing up. That, um, that she had been the one that had cheated first. That she had been the one that had walked out of their marriage, that she had lied about all these things. It was so fascinating to me because all of a sudden, this whole narrative I’ve been told my whole childhood, she admitted wasn’t correct. And I guess she was afraid that at this point, my dad was going to tell me the truth. Um, and I don’t know if he would have or not, but when I finally sat down with my dad at that lunch a couple of weeks later, I said, “So mom told me all this stuff.” And he said, “Yeah, that’s right.”

Jim: Huh.

Melanie: And he said, and I said, “Why didn’t you ever say anything?” And he said, “Because I never wanted to put you in that position.”

Jim: Wow.

Melanie: He said, “I just felt like at some point the truth was going to come out and you would see who I was.” And so it was such a lesson in me. Like, my dad to me is such a model of what it looks like to walk the high road.

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: And to believe that eventually the light’s gonna shine on the dark places, and that he didn’t jump in and create more conflict by trying to defend himself or trying to explain himself. Because I think he had to know, you know, with a lot of my animosity that I had towards him at different times growing up-

Jim: Oh, of course.

Melanie: He had to know that I was being told things that weren’t necessarily true of who he was.

Jim: Yeah. You know, I’m struck by just, the truth will set you free.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: You know, the Lord says that.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But it’s odd for us as Christians how much we cover that up.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: Either through embarrassment or-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … repercussion, or we don’t want suffer the consequences.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So it, it becomes hard for us to be honest.

Melanie: It does. And I think that those places are the things in us that begin, and I think that’s part of what was always going on with my mom, is that darkness and those secrets fester, you know? The lies and all of that, they just grow and create more conflict within you.

Jim: So this is during your dating time with Perry.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You get married. Do you see the manifestation of your childhood in your own marriage now? Your own insecurities, your own, you know, the things that you weren’t taught directly, but that you absorbed?

Melanie: Yeah. I mean, I think there was definitely, for me, the pattern of it was learning, I had learned so much to always keep the peace. And if I ever, um, advocated or said, “I don’t like this,” or, “I don’t wanna do this,” or, “This isn’t my favorite thing,” I was made to feel so much guilt or shame-

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: Or sometimes anger. So I just learned to keep it all down. Like, because my mom would always greet me if I was like, “I don’t wanna do this.” Then she, it would be met with a sarcastic like, “Oh, your life is so hard.” Or, “Poor Melanie.” You know? So I just kind of learned, nobody really cares how I feel about stuff. So when we got married, what I would tend to do is I would just let stuff go and I would say, “I don’t care. It’s all fine. It’s all fine,” that I’m the master of, it’s all fine, until it wasn’t. And then I would, you know, burst into tears and cry. And you know, Perry said to me at some point in the first year of marriage, he was like, “Hey, I’m not a mind reader. Like, I can’t read your mind. You have to tell me how you feel.” And at that moment, it dawned on me. I was like, I don’t even know how to tell somebody how I feel.

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: Like, I don’t even know how to express this isn’t what I want, or this isn’t my thing. I mean, even something as simple as like, I don’t want Chinese food for dinner. I want Mexican food.

Jim: Right.

Melanie: I really didn’t know how to do that-

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: … because I just wanted everybody around me to be happy.

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: And I felt like if I stayed quiet, it would do it.

Jim: You know, this reminds me of the Yerkovich’s material, The Way We Love.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And we interviewed them and they, one of the things in there was the avoider.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: They talk about different personalities.

John: Attachment styles, yeah.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, and that is a classic avoider.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: You know, you want to keep the peace. You don’t wanna disrupt anything.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You don’t wanna disappoint your mom.

Melanie: Exactly.

Jim: So you, you come home from your time with your dad saying, “Oh, that was no fun.”

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That’s the avoider thing.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: Pretty powerful stuff. And I think pretty right on.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Um, let’s move through the end here pretty quickly just to cover today. And it’d be great if we can continue tomorrow-

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: … and, and get the rest of the story-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … as the great Paul Harvey used to say. But a few years, uh, after all of this, your daughter Caroline is born. Uh, how did having your daughter bring clarity to this relationship with your mom? This to me is a woman thing.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: Describe it, because I’m not sure men really would get that, but how did having your daughter-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … open up these wounds with your relationship with your mother?

Melanie: It just, because nothing prepares you as a mother for how much you’re gonna love that child when they come into the world. Like I say, that moment that I had Caroline, and I had known, you know, we had done the ultrasound, I knew I was having a daughter. And so I had prayed so many times like, “Lord, help me to love her. I don’t know how to be a mother to a daughter. I wanna be a better mother.” And when I held her, I was like, this is the most holy moment of my whole life. To have this innocent little fresh from heaven wrapped in a pink blanket gift.

Jim: Wow. That thing.

Melanie: You know?

Jim: Wow (laughs).

Melanie: Just that. And it’s, it’s just, and I remember there was a night, you know, they send you home from the hospital like you know what you’re doing. And I’m like, it was harder for me to get a job at Soundcastle Records at 15 without a resume than for them to let me leave the hospital with this human to raise. But I remember that first night rocking her in the nursery and just looking down at her, and your heart is so full. And I really started to dread. I was like, how am I ever gonna send her to kindergarten? How am I ever gonna let her go? Like, how am I… I mean, I really did think maybe Jesus will come back before I have to send her to college, because there’s no way I can do that. But just that overwhelming love. And in that moment, I realized my mom never loved me like I love this baby.

Jim: Wow.

Melanie: And it was, it was such a powerful moment, but it was also a moment that felt like such clarity. I’d never had that amount of clarity to before. And it felt like a puzzle piece had finally been put in place. And it, it just opened my eyes to a lot of things that I hadn’t seen before.

Jim: Mm-hmm. That, that’s so sad though.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, seriously, that you-

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: … realized a mother’s love for the first time with the birth of your daughter.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And then to realize I did not have that.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: That’s sad.

Melanie: Yeah. It is sad. It is sad. And it’s part of the brokenness that I think there’s so many of us. And I will say since the book has come out, I’ve heard from so many women, and that has been so sad, that have said, “You put into words what I have felt and I didn’t know how to articulate.”

John: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And Melanie, this all kind of led to a boundary that you-

Melanie: Yeah.

John: … had to put in place, which sounds like it was really, really difficult, but also freeing.

Melanie: Yeah. It was very freeing. And I think because with my mom, the thing was, is her behavior tended to escalate as the years had gone by. And so by this time, I mean, she had shown up at one of my baby showers and she was, um, using a lot of prescription drugs. Um, so she was not always coherent. And so it became a physical safety thing, first of all, where I was like, I can’t have my mom holding my baby. I can’t have her around. Um, she was not a calming presence. And then it became an emotional thing where I can’t have my mom projecting the same toxic things on my daughter that she did on me during my childhood.

Jim: Yeah. Melanie, let’s, uh, come back right at the end here, ’cause I want to, amplify this is the right word. When you talked about, uh, Isaiah 61:3-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Which says, “He gives us beauty for ashes.” Now that people have heard more of the story and people will hear more of this tomorrow, come back to that verse and the understanding you now have from that. I think it’d be an important place to end today.

Melanie: Yeah. I mean, I think when I look at my childhood, what I say is it was like a house on fire that I didn’t know that I needed to escape. And so when I look at that, I’m like, the ashes of my childhood and the brokenness that was there and the patterns that I could have repeated, if not for the grace and mercy of God. And when I look at the beauty that He’s given in my daughter, in my family, in the things that my heart longed for, it’s like, that’s Isaiah 61 come to life where it’s like, the beauty for ashes, the oil of gladness. And I think the thing about when I read that, and I think the oil of gladness is, it’s like oil seeps into everything. You know? It, it-

Jim: It does.

Melanie: It’s in every aspect of your life. And not that it’s been perfect and not that it’s been easy, and not that there hasn’t been a lot of pain in trying to heal and confront things and overcome, but to know that Jesus has been with me every step of the way, and that He really does redeem all the things that have been broken.

Jim: Yeah. It’s so good. What a good place to end. For the viewers, the listeners, um, if you’re going, “Wow, this is my moment, this is the epiphany,” that maybe I too have suffered from dysfunction, I would say 90% probably have, and you’re waking up to that right now in listening to the conversation, get in touch with us. We have caring Christian counselors who can help talk with you-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and, uh, walk that through, give you a top line analysis of where things are at spiritually, emotionally, intellectually, and then suggest, uh, steps that you can take, resources that we have here at Focus to help you. And, uh, that’s our mission. And we want to be able to provide that for you. That’s what we wake up and come in every day to do. And it starts with, uh, Melanie’s great book, Here Be Dragons, or should I say it?

John: Please.

Jim: Here Be Dragons.

Melanie: (laughs)

Jim: Um, what a great title. Know your, your life map and know where the dangerous territory is, and this will certainly be there in those things that we’ve learned as children and the pitfalls and the dark spots that our parents have given us.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And it’s not a condemnation, it’s a, a realization of knowing how to draw closer the Lord so that you can deal with these things.

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Get a copy of Melanie’s terrific book, Here Be Dragons. Uh, we’ve got details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or call 1-800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Uh, we’d also be happy to set up a time for one of those counselors to give you a call back. It’s a free, uh, 25-minute or so phone consultation. And, uh, you can learn more online or when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. And when you get in touch, if you’re able to, please make a generous contribution to Focus on the Family, uh, donors make it possible for us to offer counseling services and great resources like Melanie’s book and so much more. And your gift of any amount today, either a monthly pledge or one-time gift will, uh, make a lot of difference in the ministry impact that we can make together. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we continue the conversation with Melanie Shankle, and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Day Two:

Melanie Shankle: Are my parents paying attention to me? Are they looking at their phone? Are they engaged? Are they listening to what I have to say? Are they paying attention to who I am? Because I think when they experience that unconditional love at home, then they take that confidence out into the world.

John Fuller: Well, we have Melanie Shankle joining us again today to, uh, hear more about how God brought healing and hope for her, and how you can set a new path for your family. Uh, welcome to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: You know, John, last time we talked with Melanie about how our different upbringings affect the way we live as adults. I’ve experienced it. I, you know, being in tune with those snaps, those things that you do, and then going, where did that come from? If that’s something you’re saying to yourself, you need to stop and listen to this program because those are the behaviors that we learn as children from our parents. I’m hoping as a parent, my boys got a lot of positive things, but I don’t wanna believe that it was all positive. I’m sure I gave them some things that they can work on to be better dads than I was. And that’s the attitude we wanna talk about today with Melanie about moms and daughters mostly. But dads, you’re part of this too. And, uh, we covered last time a lot of territory. If you, uh, haven’t heard that yet, I wanna encourage you to go back.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Uh, go to the website, get the download. You can download the app-

John: Get our app. Right.

Jim: … and all the episodes are right there. But, uh, it would really be helpful to listen in context, uh, yesterday’s program and today’s program. And, uh, I’m looking forward to some of the conclusion that Melanie is gonna bring to her life story today.

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, um, she’s captured a lot of this in the book Here Be Dragons: Treading the Deep Waters of Motherhood, Mean Girls, and Generational Trauma. And of course, we have copies of that book here for you. Uh, just stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast for the links.

Jim: Melanie, welcome back to Focus on the Family.

Melanie: Thank you. Happy to be back.

Jim: I really enjoyed our conversation yesterday. And like so many of the viewers and the listeners, I was like, uh, you know, metal to magnet with your comments yesterday ’cause so much of what you’re saying I experienced as a child as well.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: And you know, part of it is just that trauma of what did I go through?

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And as you said last time, it’s kind of as a child, you just think this is normal until you find out it’s not.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: And that’s really what you covered going to college-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and seeing normal and your husband Perry coming to visit your mom and him observing, “Okay, this is not normal.”

Melanie: Yeah. (laughs)

Jim: And you know that in many ways there’s a hole in your heart because of that.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: The sadness of what you missed.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: And that’s what we want to do, is to help people become healthier. I mean, I know your heart for your mom-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … even though she’s passed away now, but that would be your heart.

Melanie: Absolutely.

Jim: That she could have come around, that she could have dealt with these things-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and become a better believer and a better, uh, person-

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: … because of that. And that’s our goal.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: That we can all do that.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Especially, our own lives, you know? Looking at the log in our own life.

Melanie: That’s it. That’s it.

Jim: Um, let’s pick up, one of the things you mention in the book, um, or certainly you intimate in the book, is people that go through trauma tend to have a pretty good sense of humor.

Melanie: Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Jim: And I think the reason is I’ve thought about this-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … because I think it helps, it’s coming from the Lord. I believe-

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: … humor comes from God.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, uh, I, I just think He knows that it’s a coping skill.

Melanie: Yes.

Jim: That makes life a little lighter-

Melanie: It does.

Jim: … when you can laugh at some things.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Especially yourself.

Melanie: That’s it.

Jim: That’s really healthy.

Melanie: Uh-uh.

Jim: But you had a dog, Piper, I think.

Melanie: Piper. Yes.

Jim: And, uh-

Melanie: We still have her.

Jim: … speak to the humor of this, uh, situation, how it applied to the drama you were experiencing with your daughter, with your mom, and how you were parenting.

Melanie: Yeah. So, we have two dogs. Um, they are still with us, Piper and Mabel. They are Blue Lacies, which is actually the state dog of Texas.

Jim: (laughs)

Melanie: Most people don’t know that.

John: Did not know that.

Melanie: Yes, they are.

Jim: What’s the state dog of Colorado? I don’t know.

Melanie: Yeah. I don’t know.

Jim: Geez.

Melanie: Listen, I didn’t know, but my husband was real proud of that. But they are… To give you an idea, they kind of look like a German shorthair, but they have a blue coat, like a Weimaraners. Um, and they are high energy, active dogs.

Jim: (laughs)

Melanie: We have a ranch that they go and run-

Jim: Okay.

Melanie: … on and they track. They’re great little dogs. Piper, um, about five years ago contracted… We started noticing her paw was really inflamed, and we started to notice that it was getting bigger. So, we took her to the vet, they ran all kinds of tests, and they said somehow, she had contracted some sort of fungal infection, um, through an injury to the paw. And then, you know, she swims in water that is probably not the cleanest-

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: … down at the ranch. And so, it, the problem kept getting worse. And so, we took her to different specialists. We’re Aggies, so we took her to Texas A&M-

Jim: (laughs).

Melanie: … which is the premier vet school-

John: Mm-hmm.

Melanie: … to get them to look at it. And ultimately, everybody came to the same conclusion, which was the only way that you’re going to stop the disease is to amputate the leg.

John: Mm-hmm.

Melanie: And we really didn’t wanna do that because it just feels so extreme. And it’s a front leg. She’s a big dog, she’s an active dog. And so, we really thought about, is this the right thing to do? But she was… Otherwise, they ran all the tests and they said, this is a perfectly healthy dog, and there’s no reason to think that she won’t be fine on her three legs. So, we waited for about a year, and it got worse. The medication wasn’t helping, and so we finally had to make the decision to amputate that leg. And it felt so drastic and so scary to do that to her. And what I will tell you is three hours post-surgery, Piper was up, running around-

Jim: (laughs).

Melanie: … and did not even know the difference. Even the vet said, “This is remarkable.”

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: But he said she’d been compensating for that diseased paw for so long that she probably didn’t even realize all the ways that it was-

Jim: She wasn’t putting weight on it.

Melanie: It was keeping her down.

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: And so, all of a sudden, she was free. And so, that was at this time where I was processing, you know, and I was dealing with, you know, everything with my mom. And I thought sometimes the only way to bring healing is to cut off the source of the disease.

John: Mm-hmm.

Melanie: And that was like a sermon that God gave me. It was like a word in the form of a dog amputation where I thought, man, doesn’t this apply to our life? Where sometimes there are relationships, there are places that have just become so toxic and so diseased that the only choice you have to do is to cut off the source of the pain.

Jim: Melanie, that has to be such a struggle as a believer though ’cause-

Melanie: It is.

Jim: … the Lord also says, you know, forgive 70 times seven.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I mean, in other words, always forgive. Yeah. That was His point.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Um, so how do you, how do you reconcile that? I’m totally on your side.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: But what a difficult thing to do.

Melanie: Such a difficult thing to do.

Jim: As a believer, especially to say, I’m gonna amputate this relationship-

Melanie: That’s it.

Jim: … because I need to be free of that toxicity.

Melanie: Mm-hmm

Jim: Um, that’s big. And it’s your mom.

Melanie: And it’s your mom. And so, you also think honor your father and mother-

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: … you know, so that it will go well with you. I mean, that is like one of the commandments that’s tied to a direct blessing in the Bible. And so, those were all things that as a believer, I, I wrestled with for a long time. Where I landed and what I would encourage anyone if you’re in that same situation, was for me, there were had been many years leading up to the time that I actually cut off the relationship with my mom. And that happened when my daughter Caroline was six when I made that decision. I was 38 years old. But for me-

Jim: And you’re trying to protect your daughter.

Melanie: And I’m trying to protect my daughter.

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: And ultimately, I’m trying to protect myself.

Jim: Right.

Melanie: Because she’s continuing to cause so much chaos that I began to realize I can’t be the healthy mom and wife I want to be if my mom is continually coming into this, into my life and creating chaos and making me feel terrible and causing me to have days where I’m down and depressed and crying. And so, I had wrestled with it for years, and there had been lots of different behaviors. And I talk about a lot of that in the book, things that had gone on and different things she had done. Um, so I’d had times where I had thought, is this the time that I say I’m done? At one, point years before, I had written probably a 10-page letter of, here are all the things that you have done, and this is why I’m walking away from this relationship, but here’s what God kept bringing me back to. When you do this, you have to be able to do it without bitterness and without anger and with forgiveness in your heart because otherwise, you’re going to perpetuate the very cycle you’re trying to break.

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: And so, I personally, by the time I came to that decision, it, I really was able to say, I forgive you for what you are. I’m not walking away with bitterness. I just can’t maintain this relationship.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Mm-hmm.

Melanie: Um, for my own health.

Jim: Melanie, we touched on this last time, but one of the things the, these all seem to be, and of course your mom had bipolar-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … so there was mental illness, all control issues.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: For that mom that’s listening right now, and she has that teenager or that 20-something and is exerting that kind of control.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: How does she get a grip on that? How, how does she self-analyze and say, I am wounding my daughter?

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, wow.

Melanie: Yeah. It’s a great question. I think one thing for me is, one thing my mom always said, anytime I would confront her, you know, as I got to be an adult and I would say, “Mom, here’s what you’ve done. This is what I can’t accept. This is…” And she would always say this phrase, “I can’t think of one single thing I’ve done, Melanie. I can’t think of one.” And I thought at that time, my daughter was only five, and I thought, well, I can think of 50 things that I probably did wrong last week.

Jim: Uh-huh.

Melanie: You know, so it’s kind of being aware of our own failings. Like, where can I be better? Um, the biggest thing for me is, are you allowing your child to be who God created them to be? Are you allowing them if their personality is different than your personality? You know, ’cause I think as a woman, you have a daughter and you’re like, It’s gonna be a mini version of me.”

Jim: Right.

Melanie: I learned really quickly, my daughter is not a mini version of me. I mean, she’s got a very distinct personality that’s all her own.

Jim: But again, that screams control.

Melanie: Yes. But you have to be able to surrender that control-

John: Mm-hmm.

Melanie: … to surrender it and to trust God with it.

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: And that can be, that’s a daily, the amount of times I’ve prayed for my daughter, “Lord, I trust you to smooth out her rough edges and to leave the rough edges where they need to remain, where that’s part of who she is. But give me the wisdom to know the difference because I did not want to suffocate that personality or that will or that spirit in her, in my need to have her look a certain way or to be a certain way or to achieve these certain things.” Because ultimately, the control is us just seeing that child as a, um, another version of ourselves or an extension of ourselves as opposed to their own separate creation.

Jim: Yeah. You know, this isn’t part of the book, but I’d love your answer to this ’cause I, I’m thinking of moms that some of that is fear.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

John: Mm.

Jim: Um, it’s not just control.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: It’s fear. And I think in the Christian community particularly, as parents, we have a lot of fear-

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: … for our kids.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: We fear that they will become drug addicts. We fear that they’ll become alcoholics. We fear that they’ll get addicted to pornography.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: They’re not unhealthy fears.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: But the point you’re making, I think clearly is the Lord is gonna have a path for your child because ultimately, He’s in control.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: And we have got to somehow figure out that God, we trust you.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Even in these dark spaces now with my 17-year-old, my 22-year-old.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: And I think in that moment when you’re suffering as a parent ’cause your child has become a prodigal child-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … how do you manage that fear and turn that into trust?

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And be able to exude that to that child so that when you are making a connection, they feel the Lord’s love-

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: … and your love for them. Um, not agreement on the behavior.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I know somebody’s gonna say, yeah, but what about-

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: I would say relax and trust God.

Melanie: Yes.

Jim: And it’s so hard to do.

Melanie: It’s so hard to do but I think… I read this, I wish I could credit whoever said it because it wasn’t me, but it’s genius, it’s worry is believing that God isn’t gonna get it right. And when I read that, I was like, oh, that is so convicting because anytime I’m worrying, it’s ultimately about a scenario that I think should work out a certain way. And I think that our kids are gonna walk these hard paths and for some, that’s gonna be a prodigal road where you see them walk away from the church or from what they’ve grown up believing. But you have to love them through that. To me, the condemnation only pushes them further away. The guilt and shame only pushes them further away. And I think there’s a loving way to say, I don’t necessarily agree with where you are or the decisions you’re making, but I love you and you are always-

Jim: Al- always will.

Melanie: I always will.

Jim: There’s nothing you can do that is going to outrun my love. And for them to feel that and to see that example of Christ-like love from a parent is to me sometimes the very thing that can bring them back. The other thing I feel like God has really convicted me of with my own daughter, who’s 21 now, is I kept wanting to step in to all these situations. And, and God so clearly said to me, “I can’t be her savior if you keep trying to be her savior.”

John: Mm-hmm. So, He was telling you, you’re meddling. (laughs)

Melanie: You’re basically… Get outta my business. You know, because I think we wanna protect our kids from all of these things. And sometimes God is like, no, it’s these very hard paths and these things that I’m putting in their life that are developing who I want them to be. And it’s hard to watch that as a parent.

Jim: Right. As you’re describing that unconditional love, who does that fit? That’s the Lord.

Melanie: That’s the Lord.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That’s us.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That’s all of us.

Melanie: Yes.

Jim: And so, when you demonstrate that you’re actually showing the character of God.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: Um, it doesn’t mean you avoid truth. Man, I’m, we’re so, uh, bifurcated-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … in our thinking on this. Like, it has to be all love or all truth.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: It can be both.

Melanie: It can be both.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And you need to be able to do that artfully and skillfully as a parent particularly.

Melanie: Exactly.

John: Well, we so appreciate Melanie Shankle and the story she’s been sharing from her own personal experiences and the insights. Uh, let me just say that her book captures much more than we can present these past couple of days, uh, Here Be Dragons: Treading the Deep Waters of Motherhood, Mean girls, and Generational Trauma. Uh, contact us today to get a copy. The details are at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Melanie, uh, you wrote in the book, and John mentioned that title, that portion about mean girls.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That realization for you that your mother was the first mean girl in your life. Again, a devastating revelation.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: And I so appreciate your ability as a young person to be able to think that through and come to that conclusion. But speak to that, that, I mean, wow.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: That your mom was your mean girl to you.

Melanie: That’s it. And you know, and you don’t wanna think that, but I’ve talked to so many women since then that have said, “I’ve had a similar experience.” Where you have your mom is the one who is tearing you down, your mom is the one that is constantly measuring you, who is competing against you, who is, um, jealous of you, who for whatever reason, it was such a… I had this weird realization, I think when I was pregnant with Caroline and my mom had made the comment to my sister where she said, “I’m so tired of Melanie telling me how good her life was or is.” And I remember thinking at the time, like, what mother wouldn’t want… I wasn’t even a mother yet, but I thought, oh, I thought that I was just telling… I was just sharing life, like I’m-

John: Yeah, you were optimistic and…

Melanie: I’m optimistic in life, it feels pretty good right now. And she had seen me walk down, you know, some hard roads as a teenager and gone through some hard things. So, I thought to be on the other side of that, why wouldn’t there be happiness in there? But it was like her ability… She had a gift to being able to throw away any chance at happiness she ever had, so it made her seem to resent any that I ever found. And I thought, isn’t that what a mean girl does?

Jim: That’s a pattern.

Melanie: Is you view any other woman’s success or accomplishments or achievements as less than maybe you can have for your own, as opposed to, you know, the old thing, a rising tide lifts all boats. Why don’t we look at it as one woman’s success means that’s more success that I could ultimately achieve? Or, you know, that she’s had great success here, but God has this path for me and I’m going to have success and achievements on this other road.

Jim: Yeah. That’s a healthy perspective.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: (laughs).

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: Unfortunately, we’re talking about unhealthy people.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: And that is a sign though for, you know, a person that maybe is in the fog about it.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Just that analysis to say, is she ever happy that something good in my life is occurring?

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: Whoever that she is. It could be a mom, a girlfriend, a sister-

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: … whatever. Let me ask you the reflex of this. Uh, and what I mean by that is, Caroline, your daughter ends up with mean girls in her life.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: That’s gotta be troubling. Like, man, why is this happening now to my daughter-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and it happened to me? What was that circumstance and how did you intervene?

Melanie: It was, you know, it was funny because we got through, I feel like everybody warns you like junior high is gonna be terrible. The-

Jim: Oh, it was by the way.

Melanie: Yeah. And it’s nobody, you don’t ever-

John: Brutal. Yeah.

Melanie: Nobody ever says, man, you know the-

Jim: Brutal.

Melanie: … the best years of my life, junior high. I mean, those are really hard years.

John: Yeah.

Melanie: So, I was prepared for those years to be hard. We got through those pretty free. It was not bad. When we hit her sophomore year of high school-

Jim: Huh.

Melanie: … which ironically was a year she had just gotten her braces off. She had just made the varsity soccer team. I was like, “Life is good. Like, she’s got a good group of friends. This is gonna be great.” And about a month into that school year, all of a sudden, I started to hear and see, you know, just when I would pick her up from school, um, ’cause she still wasn’t driving yet. I would pick her up from school and I could tell something was off and she would be like, “Well, you know, this person said this today, or this thing happened.” And all of a sudden, I started to watch this friend group implode. And I think what’s so hard about this as a mom, and so many moms experienced this, is these were girls that we’d had in our home. These are girls that I’ve driven to, you know, slumber parties and have had sleepover at my house and have been at our house for, you know, before dances and all. I’ve curled their hair, I’ve put their makeup on, I’ve let them eat my good ice cream, you know? And all of a sudden-

Jim: Not the good stuff. (laughs)

Melanie: I mean even the good stuff. And so, all of a sudden to see this shift was heartbreaking. And to try to figure out, because as a mom, I never wanted to be the mom that’s like, well, my kid wouldn’t do anything wrong. So, you’re trying to like, ask the questions of what did you do? Did something happen? What caused this behavior? And it really, the focus was there was one girl, ironically, who was a girl that Caroline felt bad for, who she had brought into the group. And this girl, for whatever reason, you know, and, and why do mean girls do what they do, out of her own insecurities, her own jealousies, her own-

Jim: Yes.

Melanie: … brokenness just went on this attack against Caroline. I mean, just the cruelest, um, the text messages she sent, the things that she threatened. Um, the fact… And for me as a mom to be able to see where she would send these texts that would say, “I don’t care what lies I have to tell about you. I will destroy you. I will destroy your reputation.” And so, I thought, well, she’s admitting that she is willing to lie and tell these mistruths. And Caroline was like, “I keep trying to talk to her. There’s no reasoning with her.” And the situation, I watched it just escalate over the next 2, 3, 4 months, and it was heartbreaking.

Jim: H-how did you coach Caroline to manage this? I mean, that’s probably the biggest issue for the parent, because you can make a lot of mistakes as a parent at this point-

Melanie: For sure. Yeah.

Jim: … ’cause you want a clean house.

Melanie: That’s it.

Jim: Take names.

John: Yeah.

Melanie: Yes. Yes.

Jim: Right?

Melanie: Show up in the schoolyard.

Jim: Yeah. Boom.

Melanie: Uh, yeah, and-

Jim: Let’s get this over with.

Melanie: And that’s it, is you’re like, how do you, because we very much wanted to raise her because life is full of difficult people and difficult relationships. So, you know, initially, you’re like, “We want her to know how to handle this. Like, she needs to learn how to advocate for herself and, and how to do that.” But it got to a point where you’re like, this isn’t getting any better. Like she’s… She was doing all the things I was saying, take the high road. You have to remember my people pleaser personality, so I’m like, “Take the high road, be kind. Just keep being kind. It’s all gonna be fine.” And it wasn’t getting better. I mean, it was almost like they just kept… The, the nicer she was, the more she tried to take the high road, it was almost like the worse it got. Um, there finally came a day, and this is where Perry comes in again. Remember, he-

John: And this is your husband who you described-

Melanie: This is my husband, yes.

John: … previously as being very discerning.

Melanie: Very discerning. He’s a truth teller. He and Caroline have very similar personalities, so they tend to get each other in a way that sometimes I don’t.

Jim: Uh-huh.

Melanie: Um, and there was one day, it had been going on about four months, and she was, had come home from school. She was sitting there and was crying, telling us about another terrible day where somebody had cornered her in the bathroom and the things they had said. And he looked at her and he said, “This is enough,” and he said, “this is war.” And he said, “You do whatever you have to do.” He said, “You tell them the administration, that you’re gonna go to the administration.” He said, “And if it gets physical, he said, you punch ’em in the face and I’ll meet you in the office.” She thankfully did not have to do that. But what I saw happen when her dad gave her permission to fight back and advocate for herself was like a light went on in her eyes. Like she needed to know it’s okay for me to stand up for myself in this situation because I think for so long, she had just been trying to manage it and she needed to know it was okay to say enough is enough.

Jim: Yeah, and I think that environment too. I mean, that’s the place where people are trying to persuade this person to kill themselves.

Melanie: Oh, yeah.

Jim: You know, vile stuff.

Melanie: And we had all of that-

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: … was going on.

Jim: And it, you know, we have to advocate. It’s kinda like, uh, you know, you get a diagnosis, you have to advocate for your own medical well-being.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, it’s a lighter situation, but you’ve gotta get engaged.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You can’t just stand back.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: And I’m so glad that your husband did that.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: You know, some people might disagree with that.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I would not.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: I would say that’s the point where you gotta move forward and set-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … the boundaries.

Melanie: That’s it.

Jim: Back to your dog’s analogy.

Melanie: That’s it. It’s the-

Jim: And David was a great example of that.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, you, there’s a part of defending yourself that we need to reinstitute.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: It’s okay. You don’t have to take it, take it, take it.

Melanie: No.

John: Mm.

Jim: Um, and you need the wisdom to know when to do which.

John: Yeah.

Melanie: That’s it.

Jim: Really.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But when they’re encouraging you to take your own life and those kinds of things, and you’re a teenager-

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: … that, that’s way over the line.

Melanie: Way over the line.

Jim: Um, what are some ways that parents can help their children understand who God created them to be?

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And when you look at it, it’s about identity.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: And that’s something Jean and I have tried to make sure Trent and Troy understand-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … your identity in Christ.

Melanie: It’s a-

Jim: But it, you know, it takes a lot of forethought as a parent to connect things. H- how would you do that?

Melanie: It does. I mean, I think one of the things we tried to tell Caroline from early on, you know, is to feed scripture into her life. Where it’s like you are God’s workmanship. You were created for a purpose. You know, you have a… He has a road He wants you to walk. Like you are wonderfully and fearfully created, like you are exactly who you were supposed to be for this time, for this generation. So, can we look at life out of, uh, we always tried to raise her to have an abundance mentality instead of a scarcity mentality of God has abundant things for you. He has abundant life for you, um, to find her identity and who He created her to be because I think the world wants to tell, especially I feel like our young women, so many messages about what they’re supposed to be or, you know, how they’re supposed to look or what success really looks like. But we’re like, “No, this is what God says is, are the most important things. Like for you to model the fruits of the spirit, for you to operate outta joy and peace and kindness and patience.” Um, and I think that’s so important. I think the other thing that a parent can do, and one thing we really tried to do is home should always be their safest place.

Jim: Yeah.

Melanie: You know, just a place where you know you are unconditionally loved. Your whole self is welcome here. We’re gonna walk you through any hard road. Um, we’re gonna listen, you know? I think that’s… We’re gonna listen and not just preach, but we’re gonna actually listen to how you’re feeling about things and what’s going on with you because it’s… A wise, older mentor told me when Caroline was little, she said, “You have to listen to her when she’s young because if you don’t listen to her now, she’s not gonna talk to you later.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Melanie: And that was so smart, because, you know, sometimes when they’re four and they’re telling you about their dream from the night before, you’re like, oh my gosh, how long is this gonna go on? This is-

Jim: (laughs) But it’s true.

Melanie: But it’s true. Like they, they start to pay att- Like, are my parents paying attention to me? Are they looking at their phone? Are they engaged? Are they listening to what I have to say? Are they paying attention to who I am? Because I think when they experience that unconditional love at home, then they take that confidence out into the world.

Jim: Caroline today is doing fine.

Melanie: She’s great.

Jim: She’s in college.

Melanie: She’s in college. She, you know, all during high school, you know, the thing you say as a parent. You’re like, you don’t wanna peak in high school. This isn’t the time, you know? (laughing) You don’t want this to be the high point.

Jim: It’s a really amazing thing. They tend to come around. (laughs)

Melanie: They tend to come around. And I was like, “When you get to college, you’re going to find it’s a bigger pool. You’re gonna find more people that share your interest. You’re gonna find people that are, have the same spiritual depth that you do. And that has really been true for her.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Well, and that brings the whole two days all the way back around to when you were in college and realized through meeting Perry and-

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … you know, just what your circumstances were. You became more knowledgeable about life-

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: … and the trauma you had come out of.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So, that’s a beautiful place to end.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: That, uh, you know, hang on, mom and dad-

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: … at 14, 15, 16.

Melanie: That’s it.

Jim: There, there are maturing years ahead of you.

John: Mm.

Jim: Melanie, this has been so good. Thanks for your openness and your boldness-

John: Mm-hmm.

Melanie: Absolutely.

Jim: You know, day two here, we never said it, but here be dragons. It relates to the old maps in antiquity that would be done where shipwrecks would be found and they would consider them a, a dark thing, a dragon thing.

Melanie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And they would mark it as here be dragons, be careful.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: And what a great, uh, life map-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … example that is for all of us, not just moms and daughters, but dads and sons and the whole family.

Melanie: Yeah.

Jim: Um, so thank you for being with us today and last time.

Melanie: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. Really enjoyed it.

Jim: Yeah. And if this is resonating with you, which should only be about 90% of the listeners (laughing) and watchers, uh, get a copy of Melanie’s book, Here Be Dragons: Treading the deep Waters of Motherhood, Mean Girls and Generational Trauma. Just put your hand up if that applies to you. Uh, get ahold of us and if you can make a gift of any amount, uh, or make it monthly, we’ll send you a copy of her book as our way of saying thank you. And I often do this, if you’re in a place where you can’t afford it, you know, we’re a Christian ministry. We’ll get the book into your hands and trust that other believers who support Focus will add a little extra to take care of the cost of that.

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah, your generosity is appreciated. You can donate, uh, through the website that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or give us a call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. And coming up on Monday, author of Mama Bear Apologetics, Hillary Ferrer, will help navigate the culture with your kids.

Hillary Ferrer: I have had so many women come and say, “I didn’t have the language to talk about this. I saw this all going on, but I didn’t have the words to talk about it. And I feel like I’ve been unmuzzled.”