Day One:
Woman #1: I don’t understand it. You’re either male or female. There’s nothing in between.
Man: He, she, they, them. I ca- (laughs) I can’t keep it all straight. No matter what I say, I feel like I’m gonna offend somebody.
Woman #2: When she decided to transition, I’ve wondered how to stay friends, but also tell her the truth.
John Fuller: Mm. Well, statements like those reflect some of the confusion and fear, and even anger that many people have about gender issues today. And we’re gonna explore this really complex topic today and learn how we as parents can help our kids to navigate the turmoil. Welcome to another episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, this is a difficult topic, uh, gender dysphoria. It’s really come onto the scenes in a powerful way since 2018, 2019. That’s when it kind of flooded into the public square. So it’s a relatively new phenomena and a lot of Christian parents don’t even know how to talk about it, how to engage their kids about it. Public schools are way ahead of parents in terms of, uh, the issue. And there’s a lot of friction being created. About 50%, as I understand it, about 50% of public schools do a lot to encourage a child to go with a different gender. And here’s the data that’s so shocking. I’ve read this from the APA, the American Psychological Association. They have a panel on gender dysphoria. It was 70 to 90% of gender dysphoric pre-teen and teens will self-correct to their birth gender by the age of 19.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So this is the big problem, is that we’re derailing that normal self-introspection that’s gonna occur for some kids, but we’re really talking about 10 to 20% that’ll be, you know, gender dysphoric beyond 19. That’s significant. And Europe is woken up to this.
John: Yeah.
Jim: And they have backed off, but the US still is going headlong into, uh, hormone treatment and even, you know, physical mutilation in order to achieve this for 12, 13, 14 year olds.
John: Yeah.
Jim: And we’re gonna talk about it today, so you’re better equipped to have that discussion.
John: Mm-hmm. And our guests include Dr. Kathy Koch from Celebrate Kids and Dr. Jeff Myers from Summit Ministries. And they interact with thousands of youth on a regular basis so they really understand where kids are at, where the culture’s at, and, uh, they come from a biblical perspective and help us think this through. And we’re so glad to have them. Uh, they’ve written a book called Raising Gender-Confident Kids: Helping Kids Embrace Their God-Given Design. Excellent resource. Uh, get a copy of it from us here at the ministry. You’ll find it at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Kathy and Jeff, welcome back to Focus on the Family. You’ve each been here many times separately, but never together.
Dr. Jeff Myers: Yeah. Thank you, Jim.
Jim: So it’s great to have you both here.
Jeff: It’s great to be here again.
Dr. Kathy Koch: We’re excited. Thanks.
Jim: Let me start here. And this is, again, a tutorial on what’s happening: sexual issues, sexual identity, and the culture, et cetera. So that’s the spirit in which we’re trying to hit this. You know, Dr. Dobson said this many years ago, coming outta USC, and of course he had a PhD in child development. And he, he always was concerned about gender dysphoria, homosexuality and other things because he said it should be relatively steady in a culture. And I think as they measured some of those things, it stayed steady between 2.5 to 2.8% of the culture around the world–Japan, France, US–that would identify as LGBT. Then you have episodic moments.
Kathy: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And he would say those episodic moments are more behavioral in nature. Discuss that. I think right now with gender dysphoria, it’s up 1600%. I’ve seen estimates as high as 4000% increase in transgenderism and gender dysphoria. So both of you have PhDs. I mean, when you’re looking at this, you’re studying, you’re looking at research. Why do we have this episodic thing occurring? And what does that point to typically?
Jeff: There are two things that come immediately to my mind. One of them is social media.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: That is a phenomenon that wasn’t really in the picture-
Jim: So it’s an influence?
Jeff: … 15 years ago. It is.
Kathy: Hmm.
Jeff: There’s kind of an influence. There, there was a particular study done by Lisa Littman that found that of young women who thought of themselves as gender dysphoric, 66% of them admitted to overusing social media.
Jim: Hmm.
Jeff: So they, they felt there was something wrong with my body, I feel uncomfortable, there’s gotta be a solution to this. Isn’t there a pill I can take?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: And then all of a sudden they started looking at TikTok and, “Oh, there are other people like me. Now I understand who I am.” So it was the social media influence. I think also, and you mentioned this in the intro, Jim, the public schools have really grabbed onto this. Now, there’s an anti-bullying impulse. We don’t want kids to go to school and f- and feel bullied.
Kathy: Right.
Jim: Any child.
Jeff: What we didn’t realize is how many people in the educational sphere s- sort of take that anti-bullying impulse and weaponize it.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: … for an agenda. And this particular agenda is we’re gonna get rid of all distinctions that would make people even think they could know the truth, and then if nobody thinks they can know the truth, then everyone will be fine.
John: Hmm.
Jim: Yeah. Kathy, any input on that from your study, your research when it comes to episodic application to this? Why it explodes in Greece-
Kathy: Right.
Jim: … and Rome and now the West?
Kathy: Right. I obviously agree with everything Jeff said. Lemme bring up the mental health crisis. You know, you have done many excellent episodes about that here. We both have studied that. We talk about that every chance we get. Depression, anxiety, stress, loneliness, confusion, being overwhelmed, and they’re thinking, “Oh, if I could change my gender, then everything would be fine.” They actually think that’s a simple solution to something-
Jim: Hmm.
Kathy: … that’s rather complex. And that’s not true at all. If the research would say that they become even more suicidal after they’ve medically transitioned because it didn’t work, and they were sure that this would be the cure. And what’s really sad for us about that is if they choose to medically transition through medication or even surgical decisions, then we don’t treat the mental health. Right? Everybody assumes, “Oh, now they’ll be fine.” So now we have somebody who’s radically changed their lives and it won’t be good for them in so many ways. And now they’re still depressed, they’re still anxious, they’re still overwhelmed, they’re still suicidal, and we’re not treating that because the assumption is, “Oh, that change that they’ve made is gonna take care of all of this.” So that I think is a terrible tragedy for us. Something that we really are concerned about. And I do love the stat that you t- you shared at the very beginning, Jim. That if we keep our hands off, if we do long waiting, if we listen well, and we have a lot in the book about conversations, if we listen well, if we continue to talk about all of who they are and not just the fact that they’re male and female, then they can overcome this confusion. They’ll be introduced to abilities and talents and habits that they have that they’re gonna go, “Oh, it’s good to be a girl.” If we wait. And if we don’t wait, like in the background, but we wait present with them and introduce them to the whole of what life can be.
Jeff: Hmm.
Jim: Yeah. And we did a program not long ago, uh, with Elizabeth Woning on my ReFOCUS podcast recently. Uh, she was a former lesbian and, you know, subsequently, uh, found Christ and dedicated her life more concretely to the Lord, if I could say it that way, and got married to a man, et cetera. She, uh, runs a ministry called Changed. And in that discussion, she was talking about the current gnosticism.
Kathy: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So there’s nothing new, but there’s disconnection from physical identity to just spiritual, therefore the body doesn’t matter. But God Himself said, you know, He created us in His image, male and female, and the two shall become one flesh in the context of marriage. And she was saying this is a direct attack on the Creator. That when you start discounting gender, when you discount how God has made us and say, “Hey, just the spirit matters. It’s not what’s on the outside.” That’s inconsequential, but it does take away from natural law what Paul wrote about. And it makes that less important to some people that aren’t theologically rooted. I mean, this is a deep question, but you are shaking your head yes emphatically, because this is an attempt for the modern-day Gnosticist to kind of imply that the body’s not where it’s at, but it is a distinction.
Jeff: This is where a lot of young adults are today. And a- at Summit Ministries, we work with about 70,000 of them-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: … every year in our various programs and curriculum courses. So we have a lot of feedback on this. Most young people who say I’m transgender or non-binary, it’s not a sexual decision that they’re making. It’s an identity decision. They’re saying, “My physical body has nothing to do with who I am as a person.” And that is the Gnosticism. Gnosticism says they’re two separate realities. There’s the spiritual reality, and there’s the physical reality. The spiritual reality is the real reality. The physical one is just temporary, it’s evil, it’s distasteful. So the more you can separate yourself from that and embrace the spiritual, the better off you are. It’s the same heresy that the gospel writers dealt with, and, and it’s really significant, I think, for Christians to realize, you know, Jesus came in a body.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: He was here in a body. He talked about how to glorify God in your body. All of these things, um, should enable us to ground a biblical worldview with our children so that this confusion doesn’t turn into something where they actually damage themselves.
Jim: So, looking at culture today, Jeff, I’ll direct it to you and you can jump on this Kathy as well. W- when you look at this issue of gender dysphoria and the lack of confidence some young people have, preteen and teens, in how they’re created, w- what’s at the core of that? I mean, again, I, I’m sure they’re not looking at all of the Gnosticism and the science and everything else, but there’s not confidence in their gender.
Jeff: Hmm.
Jim: And I think the straightforward question is, why are more young people feeling like that than just accepting, this is how I’ve been created, this is who I am? Why the distaste for that gender?
Jeff: The answer to that question is going to depend on the child, whether it’s a boy or a girl, and what age. All of those things are different. So, sometimes it comes about by bullying. We had a middle school student very upset say, “I was told at school if I haven’t kissed a girl, then I’m gay. And so now I don’t know who I am.” We had a young girl who went to an after-school art club. It was not an art club. It was, uh, transgender indoctrination club, and she became so depressed that a year later she was still struggling to come out of it. There are young women who feel bullied in school, or their bodies are changing, and they aren’t comfortable in that and so they aren’t sure what to do. And they think, “Man, if I… I would be better off if I were a boy, I would feel more secure.” So there’re all different sorts of things that happen, but it often is the influence of peers and of teachers. Even teachers who try to help. If you’re saying… If you’re helping by, “Okay, what are your pronouns today?” You eventually give the child the impression that you should be transgender or non-binary. That would be the normal thing, so we’re gonna sort of poke you along in it.
Kathy: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah. I mean, it’s, a- again, it’s, it’s a web of yarn to try to figure out what’s happening in the culture, why we’re encouraging it. Kathy, lemme just ask you, I mentioned this in the open about Europe. It, it’s interesting to see the contrast between the US and Europe when it comes to medical intervention for gender dysphoric children. Europe started even before the US started.
Kathy: Mm-hmm.
Jim: They had a hospital in England called Tavistock, very aggressive with, uh, surgeries as well as hormone treatments. Then they ended up with about a thousand lawsuits-
Kathy: Hmm.
Jim: … from patients, the minors saying, “You’ve torn me apart physically.” I mean all these lawsuits. And then the medical community began to reverse itself in Sweden, in Finland, in France, in the UK saying, “We’re doing more harm than good.” And I applaud that. They’d looked at the science, they thought they were gonna do something good for these kids, and they identified that they were doing more harm than good.
Kathy: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s the typical medical Hippocratic Oath, right? They began now only to do dozens of small test things. The hundreds of thousands of interventions are not being done in Europe today, but the US continues. It’s almost like it’s so political here that even medical professionals can’t rip themselves from the politics of this and look at the pure science.
Kathy: True. And yet, we do write in the book about the fact that it is changing here. We are encouraged that some of the “scientists” have been found out as having been manipulated by the dollars-
Jim: Hmm.
Kathy: … if we could put it that way. They are outright lying to family members into the, the young people and the children themselves. And I, and we’re encouraged by the change that we believe is beginning, that we believe will continue. Um, they’re mad when they figure out that the problem that they had, they still have. And I, and I’ll say this and, and Jeff certainly elaborate on that because you’re much more into that side of things than I am, but if I could back up a little bit and say something, and I think, I’m gonna guess it’s on Jeff’s tip of his tongue as well. We define gender dysphoria in our book as a clinical, like a deep-rooted clinical dissatisfaction with one’s gender.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Kathy: And most of our children don’t have that. Most of our children have a day here and a day there when they didn’t like being a girl or a boy. You know, they… It was awkward in the moment for whatever reason. You know, as an example, so I, I’m tall. I’m 6’1, which radio listeners can’t see that of course but I am 6’1. And when I was just a young girl in first grade, I said to my mom, “I don’t wanna be tall anymore.” Well, to God be the glory, I had a mom to hear my heart cry. I knew that I could trust her to handle my dissatisfaction with myself. Well, she didn’t say, “Well, get over it. You’re gonna be tall.” And she also didn’t think, “Oh, how could we fix it?” Like, are we gonna cut six inches off between the knee and the ankle? No. My mom told my dad and they talked with me, and I enrolled in tap dance class. By the end of the week, I was the center of the back row. All of a sudden, being tall was really cool. And now of course, it’s one of my great advantages because you can see me when I sit and I can put my suitcases into the overhead bin with no trouble.
Jim: (laughs).
Kathy: So, you know, the longer that we waited, the greater that my height became. But here’s the thing. Back in the day, parents didn’t have the thought that they could medically solve a daughter’s problem. I simply didn’t like my height. My mom and dad knew to change my attitude. They knew to change my beliefs about being tall. This is a passion we have. This is why we wrote a book about prevention, because we have got to teach our young people that being uncomfortable with yourself for a moment or for a year doesn’t mean you surgically change yourself.
Jim: That’s called junior high.
Kathy: Come on.
Jeff: (laughs) That’s right. Mm-hmm.
Jim: (laughs) Yeah. I mean, that’s everybody’s uncomfortable-
Kathy: Yeah.
Jim: … in junior high.
Jeff: Yeah.
Jim: But you’re so right.
Kathy: Yeah.
Jim: But here’s the difficulty is the culture, at least part of the culture, wants to take that feeling and that emotion-
Jeff: Hmm.
Jim: … and then trade, you know, s- push the wind and that child’s-
Kathy: Yeah.
Jim: … basic understanding of what they’re feeling toward radical intervention.
Jeff: Hmm.
Kathy: Right.
Jim: A, a case in point would be Chloe Cole, who we have in our film Truth Rising. At about 13, she felt she wanted to be a boy. So she goes to her parents, they end up with medical attention. She now has a, a lawsuit from what I understand. And she never received any kind of negative feedback about what would be entailed.
Kathy: Hmm.
Jim: She had double mastectomy, she had hormone intervention. And she said the damage that was done to her body is irreparable. And by the time she was 16, 17, she said she no longer had those feelings. But now she’s trapped.
John: Hmm.
Jim: That’s what we’re talking about.
John: Hmm. Yeah, this is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guests today are Dr. Jeff Myers and Dr. Kathy Koch. And, uh, they bring a lot of information and perspective to the table. Uh, um, they’ve captured this in their book, Raising Gender-Confident Kids: Helping Kids Embrace Their God-Given Design. We are hearing about that from Kathy just a moment ago. Get a copy of this book. It really is an essential for today’s culture. We’ve got it at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Jeff, I wanna mention this or direct this to you because you’re doing this every day at Summit. And that’s to equip young people with the right pillars in their life to better understand scripture, who they are, their identity in Christ. Really vital things that are too thin in the Christian community today. And, uh, in that regard, you talk about Christians being spiritually ignorant. And I think that’s true. When we do research, you have now kind of two, at least two, maybe three divisions of the Christian experience. Researchers will refer to born again as Christian Light. They made a commitment to Christ. They really don’t go to church very often. They don’t read scripture very often. And then you have another version of that, but again, Christian Light. Then you have Convictional Christian.
Jeff: Hmm.
Jim: And it’s not a large percentage of the US population. I mean, it’s estimated to be about 8%. So when you think of the US as a Christian-oriented nation, it shows you there’s a big gap between just saying I’m a Christian and living Christianly.
Jeff: Hmm.
Jim: So speak to this issue of the church widely, not just pre-teens and teens, but the church widely, not understanding a biblical context for human sexuality. And you have 30 seconds. (laughs)
Jeff: (laughs).
Kathy: (laughs) Go Jeff.
Jeff: (laughs) Most people I’ve met in this country and around the world say they believe in God. That belief in God-
Jim: That’s like a 90%-
Jeff: It is. It’s a 90% issue. It’s, uh, but it’s not that well-formed of a belief system. At some ministries, we’re teaching students that who you are depends on whose you are. If you belong to God, then that affects everything else in your life. What you believe about God will determine what you think is actually real. What you think is real will determine what you think is right or wrong. What you think is right or wrong will determine everything else. What you think makes a psychologically healthy person, what makes a good society, what makes a good economic structure, political structure, legal structure and everything else. So we’re trying to help people understand this commitment, yes, there is a God has to be extended. Yes, and I know God personally through Jesus Christ. And when I do that, then reality itself opens up. John 8:32, Jesus said, “You will know the truth and the truth will set you free.” And the truth we’re trying to get across to young adults who, who deal with gender struggles is, is not that, “Oh, well, you’re gonna be gender dysphoric and you gotta go through all of therapy and so forth.” Most families are not dealing with that. And Kathy alluded to this earlier. They’re… Most families are dealing with, “I have a child who is uncomfortable in their body. How do I help them learn to be comfortable being uncomfortable in those teenage years?” One of the students I worked with, she had been very frustrated because she had a friend who was very cute and cheerleader, and she just felt… She didn’t feel like she’d matched up. But her mentor very wisely said to her, “You know, someday you’re gonna figure out what to do with your frizzy hair. Someday you’re gonna get contacts, someday you’re, the braces are going to come off. But what will endure is what you are working on right now, which is your character.”
Jim: Yeah.
Jeff: It is a disservice to young people to sexualize ’em at such an early age that they miss that character development-
Jim: Hmm.
Jeff: Yeah.
Jim: … that I believe God wants them to have.
Kathy: Mm, that’s so good. If I could elaborate as well, like we totally agree. We see this all the time at Celebrate Kids, people who believe in God enough to say, “I’m a Christian.” But when you push it, you know, “Well, what’s the evidence? Like, if I met you somewhere other than here, would my spirit connect with you and your spirit?” And one of the things we’ve been talking about more and more is helping young people love God so much that they don’t wanna break His heart. Like, I don’t not sin because I know the law. I work to not sin and live a righteous life because I value the sacrifice of Christ, and I don’t want it to go to waste. And I don’t want to grieve God’s heart. And it’s not easy every day, but my goodness, it’s worth it.
Jim: Absolutely. And Kathy, one of the things I wanna make sure, uh, day one here, we’ll have you guys come back next time and we’ll continue this discussion.
John: Mm-hmm.
Kathy: Thank you.
Jim: But th- this issue of what particularly this generation is facing. Of course we had COVID. I know with-
Kathy: Hmm.
Jim: … uh, my youngest, I mean, his junior, senior year were the COVID years. They didn’t do prom.
Kathy: Yeah.
Jim: They had like-
Kathy: Hmm.
Jim: … a lot of intervention things going on to make sure things were safe in the school environment, et cetera. It really was disruptive. And I think researchers are now seeing, you know, in the area of depression, anxiety, a lot of children that were in that moment. Uh, it was very unsettling.
Kathy: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And so when you add that to gender issues as well, there’s just this confluence of confusion occurring. And I wanted to ask you about this idea of depression, anxiety, all kind of fomenting at the same time here.
Kathy: Hmm.
Jim: I think the CDC said between ages of 15 and 25, there’s been like a 50% increase or 50% of the children and young adults in that age group have some form of depression or anxiety. That’s, that’s half the population in that group.
Kathy: Yeah. If we can believe that.
Jeff: Hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
Kathy: Okay? There’s a lot of people who are anxious, but they don’t have anxiety. There’s a lot of people who can have a depressing week, but they’re not depressed. And this is very important language because we believe, and you’ve heard me say this many times on the broadcast, that identity controls behavior. So we can’t allow our children to talk about, “I’m so depressed.” Are you really?
Jim: That’s good.
Kathy: And, and people who say, “Oh, I had such a bad day.” Very few people had bad days. Now you can have a bad day. Let me, let me make sure my audience is hearing this. You can have a bad day. Someone dies, there’s a diagnosis of cancer, that’s a bad day. A lot of children have a bad first period. “But that is such a horrible day.” No, you didn’t have a bad day. You were called out for not studying for a quiz on period one. No, you didn’t have a bad day. We’ve gotta tell the truth to our kids.
Jeff: Hmm.
Kathy: We have to hold them accountable to telling the truth. And we, and we also, we need to understand that a lot of our parents today, and you know, COVID was real. However, the data about depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideology all started before COVID. Loneliness started way before COVID. COVID amplified what was currently going on.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Kathy: Busy parents who are addicted to their phone and aren’t as available to their kids as they maybe could be, and keep listening to us. Like, I have the highest respect for you as parents because this isn’t easy. But here’s the thing, Jim, I think a lot of parents and grandparents today who see kids who are depressed and anxious are over protecting them. They don’t ever want them to have another COVID valley. And I understand that. Of course, you don’t ever want them to go through something so tragic, so you end up over preventing, over parenting, protecting them from all harm and all disturbing thoughts, which is why, “Oh, we’ll just let you change your gender. If you think that that’s what’s gonna fix you, we’ll go along with that.” And this is where we have to say no. If we… And this is why we wrote the book. We wanna empower parents to have compassion and hope and truth and confidence that you can say no to these things that aren’t sensible because they’re not true in the scripture.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: Yeah. And you say yes-
Kathy: You say yes to the yes things.
Jeff: … to something else.
Kathy: Yeah.
Jeff: You say yes to the yes things.
Kathy: Yeah.
Jeff: So yes, you are designed in the image of God, we are going to affirm you, but not in the way a school or the, the culture might affirm you. We are going to affirm God’s design in you, and that’s what we want to see brought out.
Jim: You know, right at the end here, let’s mention this because that’s the conflict. I mean, those that believe there is a God and believe, the God of the Bible, and those that don’t. And this is really spewing into the public school arena, right? That’s why parents are upset. There’s a lot of conflict. You know, we saw the Virginia issues with, uh, the bathroom situation, et cetera.
Kathy: Hmm.
Jim: So when we’re, when we’re looking at this, how do we have compassion and recognize that some students actually do have issues, serious issues.
Kathy: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And our heart goes out to them, particularly as Christians, we need to own that and know that they’re struggling. But to take down other children who are just dealing with “I’m not comfortable in my body” and try to convert them into more serious, to your point a moment ago, Kathy, “The sky is falling. I don’t know if I’m a boy-
Kathy: Hmm.
Jim: “… or girl or something else.” And you amplify that insecurity rather than soothe that insecurity-
Kathy: Hmm.
Jim: … and find a way. Can we not as a culture agree on shouldn’t we try to find that-
Jeff: I think we’re-
Jim: … solution? You know?
Jeff: … we’re fairly agreed. 80% of parents do not want schools teaching this.
Jim: Right.
Jeff: Two-thirds of teachers, according to a teacher’s, uh, union survey said they do not like teaching this. Only 4% said they think it’s a helpful addition to the curriculum to have gender ideology as part of what they-
Jim: Well, and that kind gets back to-
Jeff: … taught them everyday.
Jim: … the breakdown of the culture.
Jeff: That’s right.
Jim: That 4% would be very positive about those things.
Jeff: When you’re approaching an issue like this with, with young adults, uh, tackling it head-on can be very threatening to them. You kind of make it adjacent. You just sort of walk alongside.
Jim: Yeah.
Jeff: Not even necessarily looking them in the eye, just walking alongside and saying, “It’s going to be okay. You’re not crazy, you’re not alone. You do not have to believe what people at school say to you. They do not love you. They do not know you.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: “God loves you and God knows you.” That relaxes somebody so they can think, “Okay, I just need a little bit bigger perspective.”
Kathy: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah. Oh, that’s well said. What a difficult topic, but I’ve… I think we’ve begun to address this. Kathy, Jeff, thank you for being with us.
John: Mm-hmm.
Kathy: It’s an honor.
Jeff: Thanks Jim. Thanks, John.
Jim: Appreciate it. And uh, I’m looking forward to delving into this ’cause it helps me to communicate with my boys and with those around us. And, um, I think parents are gonna benefit from this knowledge. And we need your help to get this message out to as many families as possible. Get a copy of this book for your friends, and especially for your church. Send a gift of any amount to Focus on the Family. Let’s make it easy (laughs) and we’ll put it into your hands. Make it a monthly pledge so we can continue to be a source of Godly truth in today’s dark and confusing culture. Your generosity is the fuel. We need to do ministry and we welcome your support. A monthly pledge or a one-time gift, it doesn’t have to be much. But when we work together, we can have a huge impact on families across North America and around the world.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We’re a phone call away. 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Of course, we’ve got copies of the book Raising Gender-Confident Kids, uh, here at the ministry. And, uh, other resources like our counseling team. If, uh, you need to, uh, talk to somebody because we’ve touched on some things that are pretty sensitive in your, uh, life. We’ve got caring Christian counselors. Again, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by our website focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Join us again tomorrow as we continue the conversation with Dr. Kathy Koch and Dr. Jeff Myers, and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
Dr. Jeff Myers: “You’re not crazy, you’re not alone. You do not have to believe what people at school say to you. They do not love you. They do not know you. God loves you and God knows you.” That relaxes somebody so they can think, “Okay, I just need a little bit better perspective.”
John Fuller: Hmm. That’s Dr. Jeff Myers, with an important reminder that gender confusion doesn’t define your identity or the identity of your child. Dr. Myers and Dr. Kathy Koch joined us last time on Focus on the Family, and we’re looking forward to more of their insights today. I’m John Fuller and thanks for joining us.
Jim Daly: John, uh, the discussion yesterday was really good.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, we don’t touch this topic very often, but so many parents write to us or call us or talk to our counseling team about these issues of their children who are experiencing gender dysphoria or transgenderism in school. It’s getting reinforced in some schools, not every school, but it’s an issue. And it’s important for us as the broader community of Focus on the Family to know what’s happening and to be able to help our parents better understand how to communicate with their pre-teens and teens. And so that’s the spirit in which we’re coming after this topic of transgenderism in, in the public square today.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, uh, that’s the goal of our discussion. Again, if you missed it last time, you go to the website, download it, get the smartphone app, and listen to it that way. That way you have access to all of the programs. But it would be good to listen to that, uh, after you hear this today.
John: Yeah. We, uh, we kind of eased into just some of the content, uh, from Dr. Kathy Koch and Dr. Jeff Myers, both youth experts. They spend their time talking with thousands and thousands of kids and their families. And, uh, the book is called Raising Gender-Confident Kids: Helping Kids Embrace Their God-Given Design. It’s an excellent resource. We’ve got it and you can learn more about our guests and the book and our website is focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Kathy and Jeff, welcome back.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Thank you.
Jeff: Thank you, Jim.
Kathy: Glad to be here.
Jim: It’s good to have you. Jeff, let me start with you. Um, last time we didn’t hit this directly, but the goal of the Christian parent is to say you’re made in the image of God. That means your identity is rooted in Christ. And, you know, He died for our sins. He rose again. He is in heaven. Our aim is, is heaven, to have eternal life with Him. And that’s our identity. And speak to that desire of the Christian parent. And sometimes this collides with a preteen, teen’s worldview and what they’re getting at school. And, “Uh, do we need to talk about that again, Mom, Dad?” I mean, right? But that’s just part of it. But how do we effectively communicate and live those things out in our home so that our kids actually catch it?
Jeff: Mm-hmm. Every time something confusing happens in the culture, my instinct is to draw back, try to escape, get around it, not have to think about it.
Jim: Oh, you must be human. (laughs)
Jeff: (Laughs) But in my better moments, I realized that every confusion presents an opportunity. And in this case, the fact that people are confused about their gender is an opportunity for moms and dads to help their children understand you were made just the way God wanted you to be. Your gender is not something you have to become. It is something that God gave to you. And our goal is to help you as a boy, become a godly man, or you as a girl, to become a godly woman. That’s the journey we’re gonna take and walk alongside one another. But you’re right, a lot of young people, they’re a little bit embarrassed to talk with their parents about things that are happening in the culture because they think it’s going to shock them. Or, “Last time I talked about what they did at school, she freaked out and so I don’t, you know, I don’t wanna say anything now.” Learning to ask a few key questions, and my core one is this, please help me understand. Help me understand. And then if there’s any kind of indication at all, then to follow it with, “Okay, tell me more about that. I don’t quite get it. Help me. What’s going on here? What?” You know, just those sorts of questions. Uh, as a dad, my best moments were when I just wasn’t afraid to play dumb.
Jim: Yeah. That’s not a bad place to be because actually we probably don’t know. (laughs).
Jeff: (Laughs). Right.
Jim: We are dumb in that way. Kathy, let me ask you. Again, we kind of kicked this around at the beginning last time, but again, this issue is just erupted since like 2018, 2019 with transgenderism and gender dysphoria. It just wasn’t on the landscape that much. What is going on in the culture that causes young people to be so questioning their gender? I mean, it just, you go back 15 years ago, it just wasn’t happening at the rate it is today. So that would indicate, scientifically that would indicate there’s some pressure occurring, some change agent occurring that more young people are disturbed with their gender.
Kathy: It is confusing. And we do talk about that or write about that in the book. I think, so I would say we have a security crisis and that’s why we have an identity crisis.
Jim: Okay. Explain that.
Kathy: In the model that we teach at Celebrate Kids, which is in the book, and I’m grateful Jeff wanted it in the book, is children are desperate to know who they are. That’s because God makes us who we are on purpose intentionally with a purpose. He counts how many hairs we have on our head. He knows us intimately. So we’re drawn to people who know us intimately because of the way that we’ve been created. And when we don’t have that, like if a mom and dad are distant, if there’s been a divorce and there’s an overwhelmed single mom, if the grandparents have stepped in it, it can be a really, really hard time when we honor that. The, um, gay and lesbian lobby, the transgender ideology, people who endorse that, they’re loud and they’re present and they’re manipulative and they’re good at what they do. Wouldn’t you say that Jeff? They know how to tickle the ivories and they know how to get a kid to go, “Whoa, you know me better than my mom knows me.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Kathy: Like when the trans person says, “Oh, I know what it feels like to not like your body. Let’s talk about that.” And that person can talk about it with what appears to be great integrity and great authority. And that continues to, you know, discourage the child to believe a mom and dad. So when moms and dads are security, when moms and dads tell the truth, when moms and dads have the guts to say, “I don’t know, but let’s find out together,” when a mom and dad will say, “Whoa, I’ve never dealt with that before. Could I have some time to pray and then let’s come back and let’s go for a walk?” Like, I’m so proud of everybody listening who’s present to their kids and not afraid. ’cause we can’t just go, “Oh, Genesis 1:27 says, you’re created male and female in God’s image. Now go to bed.” You know? (laughs) No, that’s, that’s a true statement, right? But Jeff, it doesn’t sound simple to the confused kid, does it?
Jeff: It seems strange that we need to be talking about this, but a very high percentage of young adults today identify as transgender or non-binary, either because they’ve believed that gender is irrelevant to who they are, or because they believe there’s a gender spectrum where you’ve got GI Joe on one side and you’ve got Barbie on the other. And since neither one of us are really either, then we’re all actually transgender. Um, this is what a social movement does, is it tries to put itself in a place where everybody fits into its grouping. That’s how it gains power. So it releases power when a parent can say, “Let’s talk about this. Let’s talk about you. I know these people who are talking to you, they, they seem caring. They do not love you. They do not know you. God loves you, God knows you. So let’s have a discussion on that basis.” And when you do, when you begin to sort of break that ice to talk about these issues, if you do it in a way that shows caring, that shows understanding, that shows that you have a vision for your child’s life. “I just picture you being this someday. I picture you being the kind of person who helps other people. I picture you being the kind of person who isn’t afraid to take risks and to explore,” things like that, then it, it begins to help that child develop the secure identity, which is an inoculation-
Jim: Yeah.
Jeff: … against some of the culture.
Jim: And I want to speak to that in gender terms.
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Uh, when you’re a father raising sons.
Jeff: Yep.
Jim: Jeff, speak to some of the goals in that relationship. What are you trying to, to say and to do as a dad, transmitting what it means to be a man in this culture and to do it in a healthy way? Not in a, you know, in a derogatory way. This is what it means to be a man.
Jeff: We spend a lot of time in Raising Gender-Confident Kids on this because you aren’t going to find the answers on the internet. If you Google transgender, the first five pages are all propaganda. They will say, “Here are the facts,” quote unquote, “about this,” which are lies. And then they will say, “Here’s how to legally separate from your parents. Here’s how to sneak past your parents to get the drugs that you need to transition.” Those kinds of things. So what do we do? We go back to, as Dr. Kathy talked about, the core needs that every person has. And for young men, first of all is to be a sage. The core need is to be a person who’s wise, because you’re going to face all kinds of complicated situations in life. There’s a lot of misinformation. How do you discern the truth? A second one is to be an explorer. One interesting thing about boys is they don’t get to know themselves by looking inside of themselves. So they get to know themselves by knowing the world around them. And so they have to be able to explore it. A third one is the warrior. We focus on this, and I don’t mean it in militaristic terms.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: Some people go to war by fighting against actual physical enemies. Others go to war, I’ve, I have a brother who’s an orchestra conductor. He goes to war every day against musical inadequacy (Laughter) by, uh, by helping his orchestra be excellent in everything they do. So, so we focus on that. Um, one, one of my sons was having terrible dreams and he asked if I would pray with them. And I said, “Yes I will.” And I prayed, “God, would you help him dream about puppies and kittens and birds?” And his eyes flew and he said, “Birds aren’t nice.” And I thought, “Oh Lord, forgive me. I was trying to psych him into having good dreams.” I just said, “Can I start over?” He just nodded, closed his eyes. I said, “God, would you, at this very moment, this very night, turn him into a man of courage?” He was four. “Turn him into a man of courage.”
Jim: Yep.
Jeff: “Turn him into a man who helps the little guy, who takes his stand on behalf of what is right, against what is wrong.” And now that young man is an EMT training to be a firefighter. It literally has become part of his mission.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: Uh, wasn’t my prayer, it was God giving him this. And then I was just identifying it and calling it out. Why do we let all these false prophets in the culture curse us with all of these things about us that are not true?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: Just believe what God says.
Jim: Yeah. But it takes intentionality on the part of the parent to think these things through, be equipped. Which is another good reason we’re doing this today.
Jeff: Yes.
Jim: So, Kathy, explain what the five core needs are.
Kathy: Yeah. Thanks. So security, who can I trust? Not what can I trust? Don’t put your faith in yourself or your looks or your body even. Um, identity, who am I? Not, who was I? Not who do I want to be, but who am I? Belonging, who wants me? And so I can’t have healthy relationships if I don’t know who I am. See, identity is the core of the book and really what we’re talking about. Who am I leads to who wants me? The fourth one is purpose, why am I alive? Okay. Not alive to change my gender. Okay. I’m alive to serve the Lord, to know Him, to let other people know Him through my behavior. And then competence. What do I do well? All things through Christ who strengthens me. So security, identity, belonging, purpose, and competence. And they’re in that order. We have all five. They have to be met. We are very convinced in the research that young people who do not have them met in healthy ways will have mental health issues. They will have an insecurity that can rob them of beauty. They’re gonna be less likely to believe scripture because they’re looking for the scripture to affirm their lie and it will not do that. And one of the things that we write about that’s really strong, kind of to piggyback off of Jeff, what Jeff was just talking about, would be the stereotype of the identity. Right? So, you know, like boys can like musicals.
Jim: Sure.
Kathy: And girls can like westerns and boys can like cooking in the kitchen more than a sister and girls can like helping dad change the oil in the truck. There’s nothing wrong with that. And parents and grandparents and educators have to understand that, that it’s okay if a girl likes to sweep out the garage. And it’s okay if a boy doesn’t. It’s okay for a girl to be a tomboy. Um, it, those stereotypes are damaging and dangerous. It’s what causes the bullying. A little boy who wears a pink shirt ’cause grandma bought it for him and he looks good in pink, it pops his blue eyes. But then he’s teased when he wears it, “Oh, you’re so gay.” Or, “You must be a girl. Boys don’t like pink. You must be a girl.” Goes home, cries in the bedroom and, and “What’s wrong?” And the boy is brave enough to say to a mom, ’cause the mom has been loving, compassionate, and present, “Mommy, they called me a girl just ’cause I wore pink.” “Oh, are you a girl?” “Well, no, I’m a boy.” “Well of course you are. So they lied. You’re a boy. Do you ever wanna wear that shirt again?” “No, Mommy, please don’t make me ever wear this shirt again.” And you don’t make them wear the pink shirt even though grandma bought it. You wash it and you give it away. ‘Cause we don’t set them up to fail. We don’t set them up to be bullied, but we help them interpret the lie as what it is.
Jim: Yeah. It’s interesting. And I, I think you have a story like this in the book, but Jean, my wife said that when she grew up in Southern California, she was very much a tomboy.
Kathy: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, she wore, people may remember these hang-10 shirts, shorts, very surfer oriented clothing. But she said to me, she said, “You know, today if I were still that sixth, seventh, eighth grader, I bet school administrators would be recognizing me and maybe directing me in a different direction in my gender orientation simply ’cause I wore more like guys’ clothing.”
Kathy: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s the kind of thing that we’re concerned about.
Kathy: Yep. I know of a girl who wore a brother’s old clothes. Like the family didn’t have a lot of money, they had a lot of children, and a shirt is a shirt. Right? Jeans are jeans. And this girl, she would say now, was forced to wear her brother’s clothes. And she got confused with her gender and that’s what she blamed. And then having conversations helped her to change. To affirm our boys and girls to respect their gender and to respect the other gender will change everything. Don’t let them go to bed thinking that being a tomboy is bad. Being a tomboy simply means that you like to play outside, you like to get dirty. You don’t mind. I mean, I don’t even know what it means for sure, but to some of our kids today, it means that I must have been born in the wrong body. No, that’s not what that means.
Jim: Well, also at a deeper level, it’s making behavior your identity.
Kathy: Bingo.
Jeff: That’s right.
Jim: Which is not where it’s at.
Jeff: Or your interests.
Jim: Right.
Jeff: I had a student who was interested in engineering and she was told right away at her school, “You must be a boy because you’re interested in engineering.” I have a daughter who’s a-
Jim: That was the hook?
Jeff: Yeah.
Jim: Just because you’re good at math, you must be a boy?
Jeff: You’re good at math, you must be a boy. I have a daughter who’s a helicopter pilot. If she grew up today, she would be told undoubtedly, “Because you’re in a male-dominated field, you must be a boy trapped in a girl’s body.” I had two brothers who are musicians, highly emotionally intelligent. Both of them would undoubtedly be told today, “You must actually be a girl trapped in a boy’s body because you’re so sensitive.” If we step away from those stereotypes and what we call and replace ’em with what we call imago types, who we are bearing God’s image, then there’s so much clarity and confidence that comes out of it.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. There’s great power in, in the those different, uh, ways that we’re wired.
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
John: And my wife is a nature person and, and she was the only girl amongst all these guys in a forestry program many, many years ago. Unsurprisingly, my three daughters are very into nature and very strong, very different. Talk though to the parent who might be feeling like, “I see a tendency that makes me think they’re sliding over to the wrong gender. I mean, it’s, I’m uncomfortable with that. How do I handle my own discomfort with my kids wiring and uniquenesses?”
Jeff: Yeah. The the first thing is, John, to recognize that you’re wired not weird. God made you this way on purpose and He made you to be different from everybody else. It’s helpful for a parent to be confident and know that there are 6,500 biological differences that have been cataloged between males and females.
Jim: Is that all?
Jeff: (Laughs).
Jim: 6,500.
Jeff: 6,500.
Jim: Okay.
Jeff: It’s not just a matter of secondary sex characteristics.
Kathy: Which is why they can’t medically transition.
Jeff: That’s right. It is impossible.
Kathy: Right? It’s not possible.
Jeff: And, and most young people, honestly, when we talk with them, they don’t know. They’re not stupid. They just have been deceived. They don’t know that it’s impossible if you were a girl to become a boy or vice versa because they’ve been told all of this propaganda. So be aware of that as a parent when you start the discussion.
Kathy: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: If you see sometimes it’ll be a child who all of a sudden expresses a sudden discomfort. They’d like, you could see it within a week, something happens, they don’t like their clothes anymore. They, they don’t want to talk anymore. They’re spending a lot more time on TikTok than they used to. Those kinds of things to try to, to begin asking, “Hey, help me understand.” The question I always use with young adults is, “Would you be willing to share with me what happened to you that causes you to see yourself the way you do?”
John: Mm.
Jeff: Try to open up the conversation a little bit because there’s usually a triggering event and that’s why you can see it so quickly with a young person because there was a trigger and you look back and think, “Yeah, it was that one day. It was just that one day. What happened? What was, what was the conversation? What took place? What did a person tell you?” Then you have the opportunity to begin to affirm the truth.
Kathy: And I would say, John, the parent doesn’t have to be an expert. You know, you weren’t an expert when the child said, “Where do babies come from?”
John: No.
Kathy: Right? You just, you’re, you’re in the moment and you pray that God will inspire you to teach the truth. We would recommend that parents get ready for the question so that you can act and not react. So, so this is why we wrote the book to prepare people for the conversation. And there’s other resources as well that people can turn to. So get ready as much as you can. But it’s okay. As Jeff said earlier, you can play dumb. You don’t have to play dumb. Just be dumb. (laughter). If you’ll, let’s say, “Man, you know, I’ve, I’ve never had to deal with this. I believe the scripture and I believe there’s two genders, so I’ve never had to deal with this before. But man, I’m glad you came to me and I want to be a really good effect parent in this moment. Can you gimme some time and some space and let’s figure it out together?” There’s nothing wrong with that.
Jim: Jeff. In fact, you use a superhero analogy to kind of, uh, express why the two genders are, are healthy.
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Describe that analogy.
Jeff: Yeah. One of the core things we know about male and females is that they were designed to harmonize with one another. So we focus on that word harmony. And I think of superheroes either with the DC franchise or the Marvel franchise. The superheroes are very strong-willed people and they fight amongst each other unless they have a cause to fight for that is bigger.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: So let me give an example of the harmony. Uh, we actually, as males and females see the world differently. We have P cells in our eyes which focus on color and texture. We have M cells in our eyes that focus on contrast and motion. Girls have a preponderance of the P cells that focus on color and texture, not just a few more, like 30% more. So I noticed this when my children were little. I gave them paper and coloring pencils in church so they could occupy themselves while they’re sitting in big church. My girls would always draw flowers, people, our house, animals, abstract designs. My boys only needed two colors, black and red, black to draw the tanks and the airplanes and red to draw the blood squirting out of people who were shot.
Jim: The stick figures.
Group: (laughs).
Jeff: Yeah. In general, and I, again, I don’t wanna move toward a stereotype here, but in general, girls draw nouns, boys draw verbs. They, why? Because they actually see the world differently. Now think about this. If you want see the world accurately, you have to see color, texture, contrast, and motion. Males and females literally need each other to see the world as it actually is.
Jim: Well, again, scripturally again, the two shall become one flesh.
Kathy: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I think that’s what the Lord is trying to say to us.
Kathy: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That it’s a good thing when two people marry, come together and then you see the world in a fuller way every day. Sometimes it’s good and sometimes it’s not so much fun. But that’s the context for what I think God intended for us. And that’s really the intimacy of a healthy marriage when you can rely on one another for those strengths you’re talking about.
Kathy: I think it’s beautiful in marriage. And as a single adult who’s never been married, I would say it’s just glorious in general.
Jim: (laughs).
Kathy: I think our book, you know, and, and I can say that, I think, I think our book is better because it was written by a man and a woman. We both have different skill sets and different life experiences that we brought to the book. And I think it was super fun for us to do that. I know as a single adult, the man who runs my ministry is, my COO is a male and we do think differently and we experience life differently and it’s been good for us. So I agree with, uh, two becoming one in marriage. I know that God designed that and it’s beautiful and yet it’s not just in marriage that I see the differences harmonizing.
Jim: Oh yeah.
Kathy: And we need to teach our kids that it’s good that God chose for you to be a female and it’s good that God chose for your brother to be a male. It’s gonna be good. Live long enough to find out why it’s good.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Kathy: Like right now that you wish you could, you know, play on that football team, but you know, the team doesn’t allow girls and we wouldn’t allow it anyway. Your, your bones are different and yada yada. But it’ll be good one day just live long enough to find out why it’s gonna be good. We have to believe it’s gonna be good as the parents and we express it as often as we can. You know, there’s so much that we can talk about that we never use the word gender. We just talk about living life on life. Just talk about what’s good and because God is good and therefore it’s good. Can you believe that?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Kathy: Challenge them.
Jeff: I hadn’t thought about this, but I haven’t really co-authored a book before.
Kathy: Right?
Jeff: I mean I’ve had, there have been two authors on different things, but this was, it was amazing because each time I would challenge something that you had said or you challenge something that I had said, it was elevated-
Kathy: Yep.
Jeff: … because of the dialogue that went back and forth. We’re seeing it as male and female and it, it’s better as a result.
Kathy: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: So I think Raising Gender-Confident Kids, I think is honest in that way. It comes to it with a, a woman and a man looking at, alright, how do we raise godly young men and women? There’s so few models for, for young people to follow. And this gives you, as a parent the techniques, the conversation.
Kathy: Even the way that we problem-solve is different. We write about that in the book that men approach problems differently from women. And I think that’s one of the things that happened. ’cause our book is about problems, right? Girls that wanna be boys, that’s a problem. Boys that wanna be girls, that’s a problem. And we do approach it differently.
Jim: Kathy, I want to ask you this, because this came through in the book and we’ve only got a couple of minutes. You urge parents and kids to recognize that having resilience to face life’s challenges is better than pursuing happiness.
Kathy: Absolutely.
Jim: That’s a big statement.
Kathy: It is. And it was not hard for us to make because we, we’ve lived it out and we know that it’s so true. Happiness happens. Happiness is circumstantial. You can’t control your own happiness. You can’t, well, people think they can manipulate other people, but of course we’re trying to teach against that. So to be resilient, to walk out of valleys, to learn from those experiences. You know, Romans 5 and James 1 teaches us that we will have challenges in this life and God ordains those for us and we grow through them. We all have a more biblical character. We all have a stronger faith in the God of the Bible because of the challenges we have successfully navigated. We all greatly appreciate the things we’ve worked hard for and we have to teach our children this, that bumps in the road happen. There are, you know, potholes ahead and there are barricades and, and you know, detours that we will have to take and you will strengthen your life by doing that. So again, we can’t over protect, can’t over parent because if we, if we bubble wrap them and keep them so close, then when they’re launched and they’re on their own and they haven’t had enough experience coming back from difficulty, they may not come back.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Kathy: So it’s very important that we understand that and, and we don’t want people to necessarily make valley experiences for their kids. Like they’ll have enough in just normal life, you know, living, but to, to walk with them, to lead them out, to be present to their questions, but not to prevent. ‘Cause happiness, we, we talk in the, in the book about the study that proves that people who pursue happiness don’t get it. You can’t make it happen. But when you’re resilient and you’re not afraid of the difficulty, but you grow up… Like can you imagine the victory a parent will feel when a child comes home and says, “I get it now. I like being a boy”? Man, like, I made that up and it gives me chills. I can only imagine the victorious reality that’s gonna happen because you allowed us to be on the broadcast and other people are also talking about good truth and we’re gonna raise up generations that are empowered to be who they’ve been created to be. We have to do this.
Jim: Yeah. That what a perfect place to land with that statement. That is the goal.
Jeff: We need to be praying for miracles in the lives of our children every day.
Kathy: Yeah.
Jeff: Kathy and I, in our work with young people, we see miracles all the time. We see hundreds of them every year. Things that you never thought could happen in the life of a young person happen. This is why we never give up on people, even those who hate us because God changes people. He does it all the time, and we should be constantly praying for that.
Jim: Kathy and Jeff, this has been great. Just a terrific discussion and I hope people will get in touch with us to get a copy of the book. We can provide that as we often do for a gift of any amount, make it a monthly pledge so we can do ministry together. You know, our research shows about 1% of our listeners and viewers contribute financially to Focus on the Family. And that’s great. I’m so thankful for that 1%. But imagine how much more we could do together with two or 3% of the viewers and listeners participating with us financially. More marriages strengthened and more parents equipped with the tools they need to raise Godly children. That’s our prayer and vision for ministry. And with your help, we can move in that direction. So make a monthly pledge today or a one-time gift and let’s see what God will do.
John: We’d love to hear from you when you call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459. Or you can donate and get a copy of this fantastic book, Raising Gender-Confident Kids at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And if today’s conversation has raised concerns about your own family, uh, please know that we have a team of caring Christian counselors here and we’d be happy to arrange a time for one of them to give you a call back for a free over the phone consultation. Just let us know that when you call 800 the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or we’ve got details on the website. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
