Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Day One

Jerry Jenkins: The issue is y- you need to take care of how things look and how if you take care of how they look, you take care of how they are. Because if you’re not alone, nothing’s gonna happen.

John Fuller: Jerry Jenkins joins us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly to talk about helpful guidelines for protecting and preserving your marriage. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, we’re called to honor our spouses with the way we act and speak, whether they’re present or not. How ’bout that? I have worked on that. I think Jean would agree, I do much better at that today than maybe in my twenties and thirties.

John: Mm.

Jim: I hope so, Jean (laughs). But we are going to talk primarily to men today, uh, about boundaries that can be helpful for all of us, not just men but women too. And we want to give you some practical tools to build trust and respect into your marriage. And if you’re struggling in your marriage, we’re here for you. We have so many great resources, programs, Hope Restored, Christian counseling. We’re doing everything we can ’cause we believe that if we can save a marriage, keep a marriage healthy, uh, good things happen.

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jim: Uh, children do better, all the indices really improve when marriage is kept intact. So we’re here for you. Call us if you need that kind of assistance.

John: Yeah. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Uh, 800-232-6459. And, uh, we have so much that we want to help you with. Just give us a call. Let me also tell you that parts of our conversation today won’t be appropriate for children. We’d suggest you direct their attention elsewhere. Now, Jerry Jenkins has over 210 books, uh, to his credit, and he’s probably, uh, best known for a couple of th- uh, those books called Left Behind. And then, uh, he’s working with Focus on the Family on The Chosen novels, three of which are published by Focus. He’s married to Diana, has three grown sons, I’m told eight grandchildren.

Jim: (laughs)

John: Uh, that could always change, I guess.

Jim: A little canary told you this-

John: Yeah.

Jim: … huh?

John: Uh, he’s just re-releasing his really exceptional book, which, uh, was foundational in my own marriage. It’s called Hedges: 7 Ways to Love Your Wife and Protect Your Marriage. And when you call us, ask about it or find details about it at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Jerry, welcome back to Focus. It’s good to have you.

Jerry: Thanks. Always good to be with you.

Jim: Yeah. I so appreciate, I mean first of all, just the way the Lord has used you in your writing and Left Behind, and it’s exciting. I mean, you have really contributed to the fabric of the country and the world through what God has inspired you to write. How did you become such a great writer (laughs)?

Jerry: Well, uh, I feel blessed. And, uh, you know, I, I don’t wanna sound falsely modest, but I really think I’m mono-gifted. I don’t sing, dance or preach.

Jim: (laughs)

Jerry: Uh, I, I just write, and I feel obligated to exercise that gift. Um, my mother taught me to r- to read before kindergarten, which-

Jim: Wow.

Jerry: … made me kind of an obnoxious elementary school student (laughs). Um, a joke in our family is that by first grade, I was reading at a fourth grade level.

Jim: Mm.

Jerry: And in college, I was still reading at a fourth grade level.

John: (laughs)

Jerry: But, um, but that, that helped a lot. I loved reading, and then I loved, uh, writing up sports stories. And so at age 14, I talked my way into a sports writing job at a local paper. I was still too young to drive. My mother had to drive me to the games and back. But when you get edited that young, you learn to write better than you might’ve.

Jim: Yeah.

Jerry: And so that’s one of the best-

Jim: That’s really something. And, and again, the Lord has used you in, in incredible ways to communicate so many good things, so many truthful-

John: Mm.

Jim: … things about the word of God, about his character, et cetera. Um, Hedges is a book that you wrote many years ago, but you now have rewritten it, updated it. Speak to the metaphor of the hedge. Why does hedge work for you for protection in marriage?

Jerry: Yeah. I just felt, uh, my, my younger brother, he’s, uh, 10 years younger than I am, when he was getting married, he wrote me a note and he said, “When I get married, will I stop looking at other women?” And I said, “I wish. You know, I wish that was true of all of us. Um, you know, you probably won’t, and so you need to protect yourself. You need to protect your hands, your head, your heart, your eyes.” And, and it just hit me that, you know, you wanna put a hedge of protection around your, your Christian character. And, um, that, that metaphor seemed to work for me. It, you know, you’re h- you’re hedging things in-

Jim: Yeah.

Jerry: … and you’re hedging things out.

Jim: You know, one of the things that I appreciate about that is the recognition that we are wired in a certain way and things catch our attention. I think it was Dr. Howard Hendricks who made this comment years ago. He was a per- professor there at-

John: Dallas.

Jim: … Dallas Theological Seminary. And he and a master’s, uh, level student, they were walking across the campus, and a beautiful girl walked by. And the younger, uh, graduate student said to Dr. Hendricks, and he was about probably 75 at the time, and said, “You know, Dr. Hendricks, when do you reach that point where when some beautiful woman walks by, you don’t notice her?” And his response was, “I’ll let you know.”

Jerry: (laughs)

Jim: He was like 75. And it’s not to trivialize that, but there is, I mean there’s a reality there that we are visually wired as men, and it connects with us. And we’ve got to as Christians recognize that so we can put the hedge in for our protection.

Jerry: Yeah. And I think one of the, the great freeing things that I discovered in, you know, trying to write this book as a layperson, I’m not a counselor, I’m not a theologian, I’m not ordained, I’m a fellow struggler. Uh, I’m a fellow Howard Hendricks (laughs). And, uh, but I, I love this verse about flee youthful lust. I, I’m not even asked to stop and pray about it, turn over a new leaf, resolve. We all wanna do that. We wanna, you know, we’re, “I’m gonna beat this thing.” You know?

Jim: Yeah.

Jerry: And, uh, even God is saying, “Flee.”

Jim: Yeah.

Jerry: I’ve made you this way, you’re gonna have these issues. You can run. That to me is very freeing.

Jim: It is. Uh, but it does take a plan. You gotta know what the weaknesses are and what you need to do. And fortunately, now, we’re gonna get more into this as we talk through the various hedges, uh, but I wanna put this upfront so people are aware of it. One of the things that is very unsettling to me is the degree to which pornography is being used. And I’m talking about people in the church. I saw some data that showed that something like 68% of men in the church, uh, will use pornography at least one time a month. I mean that is-

John: Hmm.

Jim: … crippling to your relationship and to your solidarity to the Lord, right, I believe. And so, and within that, 50% of pastors is what this research suggested and, uh, a high degree of women too, almost 30%. And these are people in the church. And, uh, so in that regard, um, bridling that appetite, that’s what you mean by flee.

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, don’t entertain it because it’s like kudzu. It’s like a, a weed that gets into your heart and then begins to grow in there. And it’s deadly.

Jerry: Yeah. And most of us, especially if you’re visible in the Evangelical world, if… You know, my profession happens to be visible, and of course, pastors and, you know, any Evangelical leaders are visible. Th- they’d love to say, “I’m above this. I’m more mature than that.” And you’d be so disappointed to hear if, you know, if I fell to this thing. But you know, you know how insidious pornography is now. It’s everywhere. You can hit the wrong key on your phone and all of a sudden there it is. And it’s amazing how we rationalize. You know, the heart is so deceitful and say, “I didn’t look for this. I’m gonna see what this is all about because, you know, it’s sexy and it’s interesting and it’s…”

John: Mm.

Jerry: You know? And that’s the time to flee. And also, I think accountability is crucial. I mean, to just be open with other men-

Jim: Yeah.

Jerry: … and say, “Look, this is something anybody would struggle with if it’s there all the time.” And anytime somebody succumbs to it, they feel guilty. They feel shame. And so you really wanna have people around you, and there are so many apps now that will show on your phone what you’ve looked at and will even show other people if you allow that.

Jim: Mm.

Jerry: Boy, that’ll cripple-

Jim: That’s good. It’s really good, a good reminder. Uh, just in general, and again, we’re gonna get to the specificity of the seven hedges, but hedges, some people might say, and you’re alluding to this in the sexual context, but let’s apply to just the general context of hedges. Ah, they’re kinda overkill. It’s unnecessary. God loves me, He forgives me. Uh, I’m an adult. Uh, what do you say to that person that makes those kind of excuses for f- the forethought of putting, uh, safety bumpers in your life, so to speak?

Jerry: Well, one of the big things we see today is people who are heartbroken over the prodigals in their family.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Jerry: And you know, there, there is a promise that when they’re old, they won’t depart from the truth. We don’t know how old, but-

Jim: Yeah (laughs).

Jerry: Um, but one of the biggest issues is the example you set. And-

Jim: Mm.

Jerry: … if there’s inconsistency between what you’re teaching and what you’re taking kids to, to church and the church is teaching and how you really act, they can ferret that out. Now, that’s not always the reason for a person to become a prodigal.

Jim: Right.

Jerry: But I think it’s important to say, um, “Sure, God will forgive you, but shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Heaven forbid.”

Jim: Yeah.

Jerry: Um-

Jim: No.

Jerry: We need these rules.

Jim: Really true. Y- you’ve gotten some pushback from women, particularly about Hedges. I kinda scratch my head over that. What, what are the, the things that they will say to you about Hedges, women?

Jerry: Yeah. I had a, an experience one time where, you know, one of, one of my rules is, the first one is generally known as the Billy Graham rule, and he won’t, um, meet or dine or travel with a woman alone who’s not related to him. So it’s his wife or his daughters was the case when he was alive. I maintain that rule too. And, and you know, as a speaker and that type of thing, I’ll have people call and say, “Oh, s- so-and-so will pick you up at the airport.” And it’ll be a woman’s name, and I’ll say, “Well, I need it to be, you know, either two women or a man or…” You know. And sometimes that’s embarrassing. They think-

Jim: Mm.

Jerry: … “Oh, really? What… You know, well, this is a wonderful person and we know your profession.”

Jim: Right (laughs).

Jerry: You know, tha- that isn’t the issue. The issue is y- you need to take care of how things look and how if you take care of how they look, you take care of how they are.

John: Mm.

Jerry: Because if you’re not alone, nothing’s gonna happen-

Jim: Yeah.

Jerry: … and no accusation. But as you say, women criticize people who announce this and say that they won’t be with a woman alone. They’re insulted, and they say, you know, “Why wouldn’t you? And doesn’t this discriminate against women and w- all the, you know, advantages that we have to have a meeting like that and, you know?” I will trade the embarrassment of having to maintain that rule for my 53-year marriage any day.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Well, it’s interesting ’cause in a business context, I could see that criticism being rife because that’s the glass ceiling, you know?

John: Yep.

Jim: If you’re meeting at the club or whatever it might be where deals are being done-

Jerry: Right.

Jim: … um, but protecting that, you know, have somebody along that is a third person in that regard. I think it’s a must-do in ministry, a certainly try to do in the business environment ’cause you’ll be far better off. And, uh, you won’t be tempted in those ways. In fact, uh, Jerry, you had a funny encounter with, I think, one of your cousins or something who came to pick you up, and another person observing it was a little concerned about this young woman.

Jerry: Yeah. Um, I, I have a cousin who’s, uh, you know, a few years younger than I am. And, and, uh, this is back when we were both young. And, and, uh, I was waiting for her to pick me up, you know, at a speaking event, and I happened to be talking to another, uh, person at that conference. And, uh, so my cousin pulled up and, and gets out of the car, and she’s young. She’s wearing shorts. She looks great. She looks fantastic. Sh- Of course, she wants to embrace me.

Jim: (laughs)

Jerry: And s- so-

Jim: Whoops.

Jerry: So I’m saying, “Hello, cousin.” (laughs) You know.

Jim: Yeah (laughs).

Jerry: And she had her, uh, her child in the backseat, you know, a toddler. And I was tempted just to lift him up and go, “This is my grandnephew,” (laughs) you know, or something.

Jim: Yeah, right.

Jerry: But, uh-

Jim: Put a billboard on there.

Jerry: Yeah.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jerry: You had to be careful. After talking about, you know, Hedges–

Jim: Yeah.

Jerry: … all of a sudden I’m with this, you know, attractive young woman.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Mm. Now, uh, w- w- we’ll get more into the protective aspects of the relationship, but you also address the need to be intentional about cultivating connection with our spouses. It’s not just a defensive posture, it’s you’re on the offense for the relationship. Uh, what are some of the things you address there?

Jerry: Yeah. That’s an important thing because, you know, especially men who enjoy repartee and talking and, and being funny and, you know, being familiar, you know, it, it can lean toward being flirtatious. And I m- m- you know, my rule is I’ll flirt with my wife and you flirt with yours, you know?

John: (laughs)

Jerry: Uh, sometimes there are people who do this just to be funny, and they do it even in front of their spouse. They’ll say, “When are you and I gonna run off together?” You know, and, and, uh, everybody knows it’s just a joke, and they would never do such a thing until one of those relationships has issues. And then one of those people who’s been teasing says, “You know, have you ever been serious about what you’re saying?”

John: Mm.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Jerry: I’ve seen it happen where-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Jerry: … they’ll say, you know, all of a sudden they become dependent on each other, then they start seeing each other. Two marriages break up, and then two more marriages break up because the second marriages never work either, seems like. Um, yeah, it’s insidious. And I think you’re right, John, that you need to say, “I’m gonna put my attention, if I wanna be funny, if I wanna laugh, I wanna make my wife laugh.”

John: Mm.

Jerry: If I wanna be flirtatious, I wanna be flirting with her, not with somebody else.

Jim: Mm. Those are good, good items.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Let’s go to the second hedge, uh, regarding physical touch, another great, you know, lesson and law to live by. What’s that hedge?

Jerry: Yeah, that’s something we, we’ve come a long way in the church, you know, in my lifetime. I can remember when I was a kid, we were fairly formal in church. Men shook hands. Uh, women might embrace, but men and women didn’t. And then that kind of got freer in the ’60s and ’70s. And, and it probably was healthy. You know, we, we were a little too, you know, formal and too staid. But depending on your age and depending on how you do that, I think it’s important, I’m very careful about who I touch and who I embrace. Now, you talk about criticism, this is one that people go, “Oh, come on. You know, you can…” Well, for one thing, I don’t embrace any woman other than in front of my wife, if I do. Usually, it’s a relative or a dear friend, an old friend of both of us. Now, there are some people who, who just will approach you and say, “I am a hugger.” And you know, I like to say-

Jim: (laughs)

Jerry: … “Well, I’m not.” But I, but, you know, you don’t. You, you wanna be appropriate. But I make it brief and friendly. And you know, you have to watch your own heart and your own eyes and your own mind. I mean, are there people that are embracing for too long? I just think it’s something to be aware of and be careful of.

Jim: Yeah. You had a story in the book about that specifically. Uh, I don’t remember all the details, but if you can remember this, something during your journalism career many years ago where somebody breached this, and it was a good lesson for you.

Jerry: Yeah. I, I worked, uh, years ago in a, a newspaper office. And, and there was a guy who had an issue with his own brother, um, was very ill. And he was very worried about it. And, uh, he was friends with the managing editor of that paper and his wife. Well, the husband, the managing editor, wasn’t there, and the wife was. And so she embraced this young guy, and, uh, he was probably 10 years younger than she was, and comforted him for probably too long and led to an affair. Now, my friend was not without fault in this, but here was a woman who, in essence, traded the attention of somebody else for the inattention of her own husband.

Jim: Mm.

Jerry: She had, you know, things to say about their marriage where he, he was married to the job, and it wound up in an affair-

John: Mm.

Jerry: … which, you know, just created chaos.

John: Yeah, that’s a cautionary tale. Well, our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly is author Jerry Jenkins, and we’re covering some of the material in his book recently, uh, re-released called Hedges: 7 Ways to Love Your Wife and Protect Your Marriage. And we’ll encourage you to get a copy from us here at the ministry. Uh, stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast to get your copy, or call 1-800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.

Jim: Jerry, let me ask you about compliments. That seems pretty natural, almost appropriate to do those things. But you’re just cautioning to make sure those compliments are in the right, packaged in the right way, if I could say it that way. So talk about that hedge of compliments.

Jerry: Yeah, that, this is one, again, where I’m drawing a fine line. And I should clarify, my hedges will not necessarily be your hedges. Um, what I’m encouraging husbands to do is to look for their own areas of weakness and shore up those areas. For instance, I’m not tempted by streetwalkers. You know, that, that’s just not something that (laughs), that appeals to me. There are people that are. There are Christian men who say they drive through that section ’cause they’re looking, and they’re, they’re not gonna do anything. They’re just gonna look. That’s a hedge they need to, you know, plant.

As far as compliments, I learned this one from the way somebody talked to my wife once, um, in front of me. He didn’t say, “That’s an attractive sweater.” Or, “That’s a nice outfit.” He said, “Wow, you look great.” And I thought, “That’s a little too familiar, and I don’t wanna do that.” Now, I’ve seen women where I could say, “Wow, you look fantastic today.” Instead, I say, “That outfit is attractive on you.” That’s a slight difference, but it’s less personal. And again, I’m drawing a fine line, I realize, but that’s an area for me-

Jim: Yeah.

Jerry: … I might get a thrill I sh- I don’t deserve by even saying something.

Jim: Or communicate something-

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: … you don’t intend.

Jerry: Exactly.

Jim: Or you do intend.

Jerry: Too personal. Yep.

Jim: Right. No, that’s so true.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, Jerry, uh, um, I think it’s obvious in the scripture, there’s usually three things. And the argument could be made, maybe there’s three different things. But what I see is those hedges are about sex, money and pride.

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: And you know, for 5,000 years of biblical history, you see that repeated over and over again, be careful about sex, money and pride. And y- you know, the argument again could be that pride kind of underlines all of that, and that’s true. But I know some people that have the other two in check, but their pride is not in check. And you know, so these things aren’t just around a sexual context. I mean-

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: Um, and y- you know, it’s funny, I thought it was a good thing. I was with, uh, three other guys playing golf, the four of us, so I just cracked that conversation open and said, “Okay, the thing I read in the scripture is these three things are the things that are gonna trip us, sex, uh, money or pride. So what’s your weakness?”

John: Mm.

Jim: And we got it out there on the table.

John: Mm.

Jim: And they weren’t all the same. Um-

Jerry: And then, and then you told them that your weakness was gossip?

John: Yeah (laughs).

Jim: Right. Right at the end, now I’m gonna make sure I share this with everybody.

Jerry: (laughs)

Jim: I’m not using names here.

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: But I just think that’s another vulnerability where-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … guys, you know, if you don’t create a, a plan of attack to recognize these things that can happen to us and then what is your exit strategy if you’re found in that place, what are you gonna do to protect yourself, your marriage, your family? It’s just wise to think ahead of time.

Jerry: I think it is. And, and I’ve probably told you this before, but I, I have a little personal accountability group. There’s three men that, that feed into my life. And, uh, one of them gave me some really good counsel. He said, “You know, too often we think we need to worry about the will of God. You know, what’s the will of God, right? Pray about it and try to ferret it out.” He said, “That might be important for certain issues, but the scripture says, there are verses that begin, ‘This is the will of God concerning you.’”

John: Mm-hmm.

Jerry: He said, “Whatever it says after that comma, you don’t need to pray about. It’s there.”

John: Yeah.

Jerry: The will of God for you is that you abstain from sexual immorality. That’s what this book is about.

Jim: Yeah, no. Those things are good. And the more open you can be with that-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … you know, trusted small group of friends or a friend that you can talk with, that’s really beneficial, I think. I’ve also thought about, you know, I’ve, I do that. I’ve got a, an accountability person. He’s older than me, Steve Menifee. He’s a retired business guy, great guy, uh, part of what started here at Focus on the Family the CEO Forum. And we spun that out years ago, probably in ’06, I think.

John: Mm.

Jim: And, uh, you know, it’s continued to do really well and it, it really is a place for executive wing people to come and share their faith and, and kind of grow in that way. Uh, but this is a core issue for them and the ability to, uh, create environments that are healthy. You mentioned the idea of being careful about physical touch and all these other things. You have a story in the book, uh, where the scripture really addresses this straightforwardly, especially men who prey upon women in a weak moment, like after the loss of a husband or something like that. I mean, there are scriptures that talk about that.

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: And in there, you recounted a story of a, a female friend who had gone through some difficulty. And, uh, how do you manage that hurt as a man? Maybe it’s your wife’s friend, whatever. What was your advice in that regard?

Jerry: Yeah. My wife and I h- had a dear friend who, uh, whose husband actually was in ministry. And, uh, when he failed, he threw her under the bus. And this is common. You often hear, “Well, if you only knew what a shrew my wife was and how cold and, you know, this and that, or unattractive.” And, uh, it simply wasn’t true about this woman. And because I’m careful about how I compliment, I told Diana, I said, “She needs to hear from an independent man that she’s not unattractive or shrewish or that type of thing.” But I said, “I wouldn’t want to do that without you there.” And she said, “No, I think you should tell her.” And so we chatted with her after church.

Jim: Mm.

Jerry: And I just told her, I said, “You know, the idea that, that you’re less than or that you’re unattractive is simply not true.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Jerry: I said, “If, you know, if I’m speaking for other men, I think they would find you attractive.” And it really, you could see it, it encouraged her. And, uh, I think-

Jim: That’s good advice. I mean, but it’s a tightrope.

Jerry: It is.

Jim: I mean, you gotta be careful. I think talking to your wife about it and getting her permission-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and her direction-

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: … her intuition about that.

Jerry: And having her be there when you do it.

Jim: And be there.

John: Yeah.

Jim: Yeah, because that can get wonky really quickly if you don’t. Uh, what’s the biblical basis for creating these kinds of hedges or boundaries? Uh, what is it rooted in? Where do you see that in scripture?

Jerry: There’s an awful lot of scripture that, that becomes a biblical basis for hedges. You know, even as far back as Leviticus, um, adulterers were put to death in Leviticus. Now, I’m grateful that that’s not the case today. I think I have lots of friends who’d be dead. Um, but that tells how serious God takes it. Um, when Jesus dealt with a woman who’d been taken in adultery, everybody loves to talk about the grace there and how He forgave her. But He also said, “Go and sin no more.” He called it sin, and He wanted her to stop.

Jim: Can I ask you a question, Jerry, in that regard? You know, over the years, uh, y- you battle with these situations. So often, we treat God like He’s a grandfather with a stick, like He doesn’t know what we do.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: He knows it. He created us in a sexual context as well. Um, sometimes we lament those appetites that we have because they get us into trouble because they’re not disciplined within the context of biblical marriage, et cetera.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: How do you think God sees these things? I mean, He knows we’re sinners and it’s only by His grace through Jesus Christ that we have salvation. So is He kinda the grandpa that’s shocked and ready to whack us with the stick, or is He wanting that sin to work in us to produce the need and awareness in us that we need Him? I mean, what is sin doing in our bodies and, and the danger of the church, you know, these are big theological questions-

Jerry: (laughs)

Jim: … the danger in the church to say, “Eh, it’s the way I am.”

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: It’s the way I was wired. It’s, I’m a man. It’s not a good excuse when God’s saying, “No, I expect something from you.” And it seems like in our culture today, we’re less likely to give that discipline to-

Jerry: Yeah, the-

Jim: … the Lord.

Jerry: … the old joke used to be, the devil made me do it. And now it’s worse. We’re saying, “God made me do it because He made me this way.”

Jim: Wow.

Jerry: And that is heresy. Um, and I couldn’t have said it better than you did. Uh, you know, that (laughs) He, uh, allows this, I think, to bring us to our knees. And-

Jim: But it’s not like a shocker to Him. That’s the point. So often-

Jerry: Exactly.

Jim: … we feel like, you know, it’s the, the heavy-handed parent that catches us playing doctor at seven years old or something.

Jerry: Right.

Jim: No, no, no. The Lord knows what’s going on. You can’t hide it from Him. But, uh, the point being that He wants that to produce something positive, spiritually positive, when we trip and stumble and, and lean into Him and ask for forgiveness and repentance.

Jerry: Yeah. I believe that. And, uh, Second Timothy 2:22 is, is the one that I had mentioned earlier to “flee youthful lust.” Now, I’m no longer youthful-

Jim: (laughs)

Jerry: … but my lust is.

Jim: Oh, interesting.

Jerry: And so (laughs), so I’m fleeing youthful lust.

Jim: Wow, that is well said, Jerry. We have covered just about half of those hedges. Let’s come back next time and cover the other half and get more into the need for us as Christian men and Christian women, uh, to live a life that is convictional, that we really believe these things but live them out. And I think, Jerry, another big question for me or comment on where we’re at in the culture today with the stats that I read at the very beginning or referred to in the very beginning that so many men and women in the church are caught up in pornography, we have got to discipline ourselves to-

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: … live the Word, be the Word, A, so our kids can see it, our grandkids-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … can see it, and the culture around us can see it. I think when we live that way, actually things will change. People will notice a difference, right?

Jerry: I agree.

Jim: Amen. Well, listen, you can get a copy of this great book right from us here at Focus on the Family. When you do, uh, all the proceeds go right back into helping Focus. If you can do it on a monthly basis, that’s great. A one-time gift is also good. If you can’t afford this resource, we’re gonna trust others will cover the cost of that, and we’ll get it into your hands. We are a Christian ministry. We believe in the content that we talk about. We believe in what Jerry has expressed through his book, Hedges, and we don’t want cost to be the issue.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So get in touch with us, help us monthly, helps us one time. Get ahold of us to get a copy even if you can’t afford it.

John: Yeah, your donation goes so far in helping us, uh, provide resources to marriages, whether that’s, uh, fine-tune resources like Jerry’s book, uh, preventative, or if you’ve struggled, uh, we have a caring team of Christian counselors. There’s so much, uh, in between that we have to offer. Donate today, make that kind of ministry possible. Request your copy of the book by Jerry Jenkins, Hedges: 7 Ways to Love Your Wife and Protect Your Marriage. We’ve got, uh, all the details about how to donate and get that book when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we continue the conversation with Jerry Jenkins and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Day Two

Jerry Jenkins: That’s how Diana sees my hedges. She said, “You know, I see these as your gift of love to me, and so I know you’re following ’em. And, and I count on you for that.”

John Fuller: Well, that’s Jerry Jenkins and he’s back with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly to share what, uh, you can do to safeguard your marriage. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, last time we talked about some touchy subjects in the, uh, creation of Hedges, which is Jerry’s book, Hedges. And, uh, I think if people missed it, they should go back and take a listen to that. We covered some of those hedges. We’re gonna continue to talk about those hedges today. But if you want the full package, uh, go back and listen. You can get-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that from the app, or you can get the-

John: Our mobile app is terrific. Yeah.

Jim: … uh, computer and, and whatever. What do you do at a computer? I dunno.

John: (laughs) at the computer. You can listen online or you can watch on YouTube, right?

Jim: (laughs) is that what you do? I-

John: Yeah. You can do that.

Jim: … I do everything through the app now.

John: (laughs).

Jim: I don’t know. Computers still exist?

John: They do. Yeah.

Jim: (laughs) okay.

John: But the app is a great thing.

Jim: But we’re gonna continue today because it’s a serious topic.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I mean, uh, there are hedges and then there are holes in the hedges.

John: Yeah.

Jim: And the idea for us as Christians is how do we make sure we’re nurturing our relationships, particularly with our spouse, but with our family to protect those things that will take us down. You know, John 10:10 says, the, uh, thief, meaning Satan, the enemy will come to steal, kill, and destroy. And that’s physical. Certainly plays itself out in the-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … issue of abortion, but also in the issue of our marriages, our relationships, et cetera. He despises those things-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and has tried to bring havoc into every relationship we have. So today we’re gonna talk more with Jerry Jenkins about these concepts.

John: Yeah. There’s so much good stuff that was in part one, as you said, and I’m looking forward to the conversation today. But some of this is not gonna be suitable for younger children. Just, uh, be aware of that as we continue. And Jerry Jenkins is probably best known to many for writing the Left Behind series. Uh, he’s partnered with Focus for, uh, some novels based on the Chosen, uh, that was, uh, created and produced by his son Dallas. Uh, Jerry and his wife Diana, have been married for 50 plus years, 53 years. They have three grown sons and eight grandchildren. Jim, as you alluded, uh, we’re talking today about, uh, his book Hedges: 7 Ways to Love Your Wife and Protect Your Marriage. We have copies of that here. Give us a call or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast to learn more.

Jim: Jerry, welcome back. It’s good to see you again (laughs).

Jerry: Thank you. Good to be here.

Jim: Going back to last time we did touch on flirting a little bit, let’s pick it up again today, ’cause that can be such an easy area to kind of just, uh, wiggle through a little bit. But you’re, you’re saying you should have some really hard boundaries on what that is. And sometimes, you know, Jean will say occasionally to me, “Ah, you’re a little too nice to that waitress.” You know, it’s with her-

Jerry: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … there, but I’m trying to be nice to a server.

Jerry: Right.

Jim: And, you know, I’m thinking it’s all within normal boundaries-

Jerry: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … you know, “I hope you’re having a great day,” whatever it might be. But what she perceives as maybe being too friendly is, you know, I gotta pay attention to that.

Jerry: Yeah. Right. I think that’s important. And, you know, I, I mentioned yesterday that, you know, I’ll flirt with my wife and you flirt with yours. I had this happen in a church. Um, when I was a kid, I saw two couples that I admired, being a young single guy, and they hung around a lot together. And the husband of one of the couples and the wife of the other would tease each other in a flirtatious way. And they liked to be funny, I like to be funny. So I thought, that’s humorous. That’s maybe an example for me, how to be fun and funny. Um, but eventually those two got together-

Jim: Hmm.

Jerry: … and I think it started because of that flirting, even in front of their spouses. It wound up breaking up two marriages, and it was a disaster. It was chaos. So I think it’s crucial to, uh, to keep your flirting within your own home.

Jim: Yeah. And I, I guess you just learned the boundaries of that over time and what that means and, you know.

Jerry: Yeah. My, my dad was a career law enforcement officer, and he used to say that, that flirting is like looking down the barrel of a loaded gun. You might get what you’re asking for.

John: Hmm.

Jim: Hmm. That’s not good. That’s not good at all. Um, share your hedge regarding wedding vows. You mentioned that quickly as we gave the list, but-

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: … I wanna go a little deeper into that. Um, boy, that’s something that most of us forget to apply. They were wonderful words. And what were those words that I used to say? And-

Jerry: Yeah. That’s, that’s-

Jim: … so talk about the importance of remembering those.

Jerry: Yeah. I think it’s important because when we say them, they’re, they’re in that old English or Elizabeth-

Jim: Right (laughs).

Jerry: … English. Uh, keep thee under myself for as long as we push and all that stuff. Um, and I would love it if a pastor would simply say, “Now you realize what you’ve just said. You’ve just said you’re not gonna sleep with anybody else as long as you live, as long as she’s alive.” You know? And then people go, “Oh, that’s crass. And that’s tacky.” But that’s the vow. And so when, you know, I mentioned that I’m not a counselor or ordained or professional, I’m a struggling, you know, fellow layman. Um, but when I wrote this book, people would come to me sometimes with their marital issues and want advice. And oftentimes it was a husband who had strayed and would say, “You know, this new relationship is so beautiful. God has to be in it.” You know?

Jim: Hmm.

Jerry: And I go, “I’m not gonna sit close to you ’cause I’m not fond of lightning. You know.”

Jim: (laughs).

Jerry: “That, that is really heresy and, and blasphemy. And you need to acknowledge you broke your vow. Remember what you said at your wedding? You said you would not do this and you’ve done it. Start there and we can go from there.”

Jim: Mm-hmm. You also mentioned in the book. And this is good, some fun and practical ways, uh, to incorporate your vows more deeply. I’m trying to think of the fun ways you can do that. What are some ideas?

Jerry: Well, anytime it’s a special occasion, a birthday or even Christmas or Valentine’s Day or whatever, whatever people celebrate, you know, their anniversary. You, you look for the right card, you sign love, always, et cetera. Um, just add your vow.

Jim: Yeah.

Jerry: I’m still keeping you only unto me for as long as we both shall live.

Jim: Oh, that’s good. That’s clever.

Jerry: And, you know, Diana just-

Jim: Okay. I got into trouble the other day ’cause, uh, it was our anniversary. And I go and I, I got flowers, two dozen red roses-

Jerry: All right. All right.

Jim: … with baby’s breath.

Jerry: (laughs).

Jim: And, uh, first of all, that was a hassle. The woman’s looking at me like, “What?” I was, “Can you put it together? I mean, I got a half hour (laughs).”

Jerry: (laughs).

Jim: But she did. And, uh, you know, the big Mylar balloon, happy anniversary.

Jerry: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jim: I go look for a card. There was not one anniversary card in the aisles-

Jerry: Really?

Jim: … of cards. And I had to get a really good birthday card and scratch-

Jerry: (laughs).

Jim: … out happy birthday. It was, you know, your love means the most to me. And it was the right wording-

John: It was the right sentement.

Jim: … it was the wrong header though. So I just crossed it out and put anniversary in there. And I told Jean, “Hey, here’s the thing.” But the cards words were really good.

Jerry: That’s a really classic card. Yeah.

Jim: And that ended up being funny for her.

Jerry: (laughs).

Jim: Yeah. Very sincere. I won’t tell you about the other card that Trent picked out. And Jean read it. I signed it. It was for her birthday from me and Trent. I asked him to pick it up ’cause I had too many meetings going on that day, and I didn’t even get a chance to respond to him. And so he picked out a card and I signed it really quick and licked it and put it by the flowers. And then Jean read it and went, “This is the best card you’ve ever gotten me. (laughs).”

Jerry: Oh, that’s funny.

Jim: And now I had to confess, because Trent’s at the end of the table and I’m going, “Okay, I’m on the spot. Trent picked it out for you.”

John: Ah.

Jerry: You know, Diana has a great sense of humor. And, uh, one year she gave me a, a anniversary card, no, it was a birthday card. And-

Jim: Did it say happy anniversary on it?

John: (laughs).

Jerry: No, it didn’t, but it’s, but it showed a birthday cake and it showed this beautiful blonde, and it said, “This is your cake, and this is Edith.” And inside it said, “You can’t have your cake and Edith too.” (laughs).

Jim: (laughs). Okay. That’s a fun way to get the point across.

John: Oh, my.

Jim: What was your old hedge regarding time with your family? You touched on it, you gave us that, and we’ve all got, hopefully some hedges in that direction. But why is that important to create a hedge around family? “You know, I provide, I work hard, Jerry, I’m doing everything I can do. Can I not get a little grace here if I get home at seven o’clock?”

Jerry: Yeah. And, and you hear that a lot, especially from husbands. They’ll talk about, you know, “I’m working 12 hours a day at least, and I’m providing for the family. And, you know, we get one good vacation a year, and the time I do spend with the family is quality time.” There’s a lie from the pit because kids don’t know the difference between quality and quantity time. To them quality time is quantity time (laughs).

Jim: Right. Same thing.

Jerry: Yeah. And, uh, I, I had this experience where I was writing stories for scripture press publications back in the ’70s, this was before we had kids. We were newlyweds. And I was doing stories about five different guys, five different totally disparate stories, but they were all about twice my age. And I said, do you have any regrets at this stage in your life? And to a person, they all had the same regret. They said, “I wish I’d spent more time with my kids when they’re growing up.”

Jim: Yep.

Jerry: And I remember telling Diana, “Somebody’s trying to tell me something, and if I have that same regret at that age, I’m gonna be without excuse.” And so we, we set that policy even before Da- Dallas is our eldest. Even before he was born, I decided I’m not gonna do the, any work or any writing the time they get home from, I get home from work till the time they go to bed. And it gave me uninterrupted hours with them, allowed Diana to do her thing after watching them all day. Um, it became a great marital hedge because she’s so warmed by the relationship between dad and the boys.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Jerry: And there’s nothing better a man can do for his wife than to love her kids.

Jim: Absolutely. I think that is something you got to figure out.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, uh, you know, if that means you gotta talk to your employer. If you’re working for somebody to say, “Hey, can I make sure I get home by 5:00?” And-

Jerry: Yep.

Jim: … you know, hopefully they’ll see the advantage of that. A happy family is a happy life and a happy wife and happy career, I think-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jerry: Right.

Jim: … uh, frankly. But it’d be good for more and more companies to recognize the importance of that. They’ll have better employees, frankly-

John: Yeah.

Jim: … if they’re able to spend those evening hours together, et cetera.

John: Yeah.

Jim: Uh, don’t expect more than what they can give you-

John: Yeah.

Jim: … at the job.

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, you know, so that’s something here at Focus I always felt strongly about, you know, people need to get home and get outta here at 5:00, and occasionally we have to work a little later to get some things done, special projects. I get that.

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: But let’s make sure family is first.

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: And hopefully I’ve communicated that.

John: You have modeled that well, Jim.

Jim: Um, you, uh, also encourage men to cultivate friendships that keep them accountable in this way. I mean, we, the sexual stuff is obvious. We covered most of that last time. But what about this kind of buddy discussion, you know? “Yeah. I’m going to Minneapolis tomorrow and then I gotta…” You, you know, we we’re kind of a badge of honor with how busy we are.

Jerry: Right.

Jim: It’s good to have a friend to say, “And how much time are you spending with your kids and your spouse?”

Jerry: Right.

Jim: I don’t know that we talk that way amongst guys. We tend to say, “Yeah. Oh, I see your Jack and ace and I’ll give you two aces. I’m going to Miami, Dallas and Fort Lauderdale tomorrow.”

Jerry: That’s right. Yeah.

John: (laughs).

Jim: But how, how do we kind of back down and say, eh, maybe that’s not that good?

Jerry: Yeah. I think it’s important to put that on the table with your accountability partner or partners, whoever that is, and say, “Ask me how much time I’m spending with my family.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Jerry: “And when I start bragging about how busy I am and how visible I am and how important I am, um, bring me back down to earth.”

Jim: No, it’s so true. And I, you, do you have conversations like that, John?

John: Oh yeah. There’s a badge of busyness that so many of us wear.

Jim: So true.

John: It’s sort like, “Well, you’re busy and I am even more busy,” as you said, Jim.

Jim: I see you’re busy and I up you for busyness.

John: And unfortunately the family takes the toll. It reminds me of the time that Dina looked at me and she said, “Could I just ask you to do one thing for us?” I said, “What’s that?” She said, “Pick up a hobby that involves us.”

Jim: Mm-hmm. Oh wow. That’s good.

John: “Because you’re doing these long distance runs.”

Jim: Yeah.

John: “You go away for four hours on a Saturday morning doing a long run. And I can’t go with you. I’m, I’m at home with the kids.”

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: Yeah.

John: “Do something with us.”

Jim: Jean was good with me. I mean, the golf thing, you know, you start, if you pick something up, I’d never really had a hobby and, uh, start playing golf. And I, like, I enjoyed it. I’m not that good at it, but I love walking the golf course. And so, anyway, Jean whispered to me one time, “You know, that’d probably be best if you don’t do it on the weekend-”

Jerry: Hmm.

Jim: “… ’cause your boys need you on the weekend.”

Jerry: Interesting.

Jim: “If you can do it during work, that’s a great thing.”

Jerry: (laughs).

Jim: “Let’s not do it on the weekend so-”

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: “… your boys can spend time with you.” That’s a wise spouse.

Jerry: You bet.

Jim: And, you know, that accountability, I didn’t push back. I thought, “No, you’re right. I think that’s right.”

Jerry: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So you have to have the, the wisdom to hear it and then to agree with it and embrace it rather than fight it.

Jerry: Yeah. Wives can be very insightful.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Yeah. That, that also, uh, brings up that concept in the New Testament where marriage is to be honored by all. That’s me honoring the marriage and-

Jerry: Right.

John: … honoring my family. Uh, this is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Our guest is Jerry Jenkins. We’re talking about his classic book, which has been updated and re-released through Focus on the Family. It’s called Hedges: 7 Ways to Love Your Wife and Protect Your Marriage. This is a terrific resource and, uh, we wanna encourage you to get a copy of it from us here. Uh, we’ve got details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or give us a call 800 the letter A and the word FAMILY.

Jim: Uh, Jerry, the seventh bonus hedge, if we want to call it that. We touched on it early in the last program, but this issue of fleeing pornography, uh, let’s recap that for those that are here today, and they weren’t with us yesterday. The fleeing concept and the snare that pornography is.

Jerry: Yeah. It’s so pervasive and so common that it’s sort of a folly to try to pretend you don’t struggle with this. Uh, even those people who are avoiding it and planting hedges need to admit to the people that love them and that care about them, that this could be a problem if they didn’t control it. And, uh, it’s so crucial ’cause it creates chaos.

Jim: You, you’ve, uh, recommended some practical guidelines. I’m gonna run through a couple of ’em. You can pick up on these. Install content filters. I think that’s a really smart thing to do. Enlist an accountability partner. You know, that is only as good as you are honest.

Jerry: Right.

Jim: And you can trick people.

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: And I would just encourage you to be relatable. Be honest with that person that is your accountability partner.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Be real with them. I mean, that is the depth of intimacy emotionally that will help you. If you’re just tricking that person, then what benefit is it?

Jerry: Yeah. I- if you’re not gonna be honest, don’t have an accountability partner.

Jim: Right. Be honest about that.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: At least I, I agree with that. Uh, you talk about limiting screen time-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … avoid idle browsing, uh, guarding your thoughts. This one, I think is most critical. All the data supports this. Make prayer and scripture a daily habit. When we’re living our faith well, these things, uh, are so much reduced in our-

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: … in our friction of life.

Jerry: Yeah. And it’s important. You know, I, I even like little, um, you know, talisman, if that doesn’t sound too ethereal. Um, when I’m having my quiet time every morning, behind me on the wall are two classic paintings of Jesus. Uh, this happens to also be the TV room. Now, I know those pictures can’t see anything, but they remind me that God is there too. And it affects what I watch on TV.

Jim: Right.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jerry: Something comes on and you go, “Oh, I’m gonna check that. No, I’m not. No, I’m not.”

John: Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend who traveled with an icon. He was orthodox.

Jerry: Hmm.

John: And he carried an icon that, uh, went with him so that in the hotel room, he would be reminded Christ is here. And it enabled him just to say no to the TV altogether, because he knew that was a road that would lead to temptation.

Jim: You know, Jerry, you, you speak often about, “These are mine, this is what I did.” You put it in a very popular book, sold many copies, Hedges. But you’re very encouraging to say to couples, “Create your own hedges. I mean, these are the things I used.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I think there are some in there that are obvious and basic and should be part of everybody’s-

Jerry: Right.

Jim: … hedge. But you also, uh, give that liberal idea of, you know, just create it for your own self. Uh, an additional thing that you’ve talked about is speaking about your story with your spouse and with, uh, your friends in front of your spouse.

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: Why is that important? Um, can we get bored of that? Or is it something to revisit regularly so that we’re encouraged by it?

Jerry: One reason why I don’t think it necessarily has to become boring is that the more you tell it, the more you find out what people respond to. And you emphasize that the next time.

Jim: (laughs).

John: Uh-huh.

Jerry: Um, mine really quickly. Uh, I was introduced to Diana on a blind date. And, you know, she’s tall, she’s gorgeous, she’s spiritual, she’s wonderful. And after the blind date, the guy, the couple that introduced us, said, “So, what’d you think?” And I said, “She’s great.” I said, “I, I was kind of expecting lightning and thunder, and, you know, I’m kind of a romantic, and I, you know, she’s fine.”

Jim: (laughs).

Jerry: And he goes, he goes, “You’re nuts.” And so the next day we have another date. Same, you know, four of us. And that same conversation.

Jim: The next night?

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: Okay.

Jerry: Same thing. And so then-

Jim: That was quick.

Jerry: … in, in chatting with her… I mean, she lived in Indiana, I lived in Illinois. And so in chatting with her, I said, “We’ll have to do this again sometime.” And I was just being cordial. I was, I really wasn’t, you know, looking forward to that or, you know. And so she sent me a note in the meantime and said, “So you said we’re gonna do this again sometime.” So I did out of a sense of obligation.

John: Hmm.

Jerry: I’m like, “Well, I said I would, I should, you know, but this time it’ll just be the two of us.” I go to her house, I knock on the door, she’s coming from a back bedroom to the kitchen, and she just smiles at me. She goes by and says, “I got something on the stove. Come on in.” I was absolutely smitten. I was speechless.

Jim: Huh.

Jerry: I, I literally couldn’t speak. And one thing she liked about me was that I’m a talker and she’s kind of an introvert. So I follow her into the kitchen and I, I can’t talk. She’s like, “How was the trip?” And I’m like…

Jim: (laughs).

Jerry: And I, I, and you know, I’m, I was raised a fundamentalist and I’m an evangelical. I’m not from a tradition that has visions. I had a vision. I could see her. She was chopping carrots, I think. I could see her doing that in our house the rest of my life. And every time I see her doing that now, I say, “This is my vision.” She goes, “Oh stop with the vision.”

John: (laughs).

Jerry: But that’s our story. And I remember driving back to Chicago that night, and I had to tell somebody, and I, I had a friend who worked at an all night gas station. I climbed up on a 55 gallon oil drum and rhapsodized about her for longer than I’d been with her. And I said, “You’re gonna be in the wedding.” He goes, “Does she know about this wedding?”

Jim: (laughs).

Jerry: I said, “She will, you know.” And then I get off that oil drum and I realize I’ve been sitting in a quarter inch of motor oil the whole time. It’s soaked down my pants. And it really felt pretty good, actually, (laughs). But I mean, I was, I was gone. And I, I remember getting home and peeking into my parents’ room. It was about 6:00 in the morning, and my mother opens one eye and she says, “You’re in love.”

Jim: Yeah, totally.

Jerry: And she was right.

Jim: That’s what it sounds like.

Jerry: And I still am 53 years later.

Jim: I was gonna say that.

John: Oh, that’s great.

Jim: That sounds funny, doesn’t it?

John: That’s wonderful.

Jim: Well, you, I thought you were gonna say, “You had me at, you know-”

Jerry: (laughs).

Jim: … “I got something in the kitchen cooking” or something like that.

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: But that is a great love story. Let me, let me ask you this. Speak to, uh, the value of a strong marriage for your family legacy. Of course, your sons are doing some great work, all different things.

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: And Dallas, uh, you know, is doing his thing with film. But, you know, A, you gotta be proud of that. But speak to the legacy issue of living this life of hedges.

Jerry: Yeah. Legacy is huge. And, um, my, my father’s father and his father were pastors. Um, my father’s father died when, when my father was only 14 months old. So he never knew him. But my parents had a great marriage. And, um, I can remember at their 50th anniversary, somebody asked my father, what was the, the secret? And he said, “Well, I make all the big decisions. She makes all the small decisions and 50 years of marriage, no big decisions.”

Jim: (laughs) everything’s a small decision.

John: (laughs).

Jerry: But they had a fantastic marriage. And I remember every time my dad came home from work, they embraced and kissed. And, you know, you don’t see that everywhere-

Jim: Yeah.

Jerry: … you know, these days. Um, and I wanted my kids to see our marriage, to hear that we don’t raise our voices to each other. We don’t agree on everything, but we talk it out and we love each other. Uh, our two oldest boys are, are happily married. Our third son is, uh, still single, but, um, all three graduated from Christian colleges and serve the Lord. And, you know, I think that legacy is all part of having a solid marriage where I honor my wedding vows, and of course Diana does too. And we, we try to live that out in front of our kids.

Jim: You know, Jerry, uh, for that wife that maybe has even talked to her husband about these things, and he has kind of shrugged it off. “You know, it’s fine. I, I manage myself really well in the work environment, even though I may have lunch with a colleague,” all those things. But she’s got that intuition that something is not the way it should be.

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: Uh, this is more like a counseling question, obviously, but what advice would you give that wife who feels like we’re not doing everything we should do as a-

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: … couple to put hedges up? How does she go about talking about that again, with her husband and getting some traction?

Jerry: Yeah, I think if she can be heard, and, you know, it’s all about diplomacy, how you talk to somebody. It’s, it’s the same thing of when you see somebody in your life who’s not, you know, planting hedges. You say, “You know, I love you, you know, I care about you. Um, but how do you justify this, what I saw?”

John: Hmm.

Jerry: Um, I think a wife can say that to her husband too and say, you know, and maybe give him the book Hedges, say… this is really for men. It’s not for women because I don’t claim to speak for women, “But these hedges or our hedges would be a gift of love to me.”

Jim: Wow.

Jerry: That’s how Diana sees my hedges. She said, “You know, I see these as your gift of love to me, and so I know you’re following ’em, and, and I count on you for that.”

Jim: That’s a powerful way of looking at that actually-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and a, a good reminder for us. Um, speak to the men then directly who have, uh, negated or, uh, kind of left this, “It’s not something to pay attention to. I’m managing it well, I’m not addicted to porn. I’m not in the 68% that you talked about, Jim.”

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: “Uh, you know, I’m doing fine.”

Jerry: Yeah. But you know yourself and you know what your weaknesses are. You maybe only need two hedges. Maybe you only need one. But what’s your weakness? Hedges, you know, especially talking about your hedges makes you vulnerable. I just told people seven things I’m weak on and I need hedges for.

John: Hmm.

Jim: (laughs).

Jerry: So there it is. However many you need, do it. And, and don’t kid yourself. That’s especially to a man who’s failed in this or has gone over the edge. It’s never too late or never wrong to do the right thing. You can start over and say, “Alright, from this day forward as a gift of love to my wife, here are my hedges. Whether it’s 1, 2, 3, or seven.” And make them public to your wife for sure.

Jim: Yeah. That, that’s an outstanding, maybe we could post something like that on the website-

John: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and people can see that as an example. You know, we men we need a little bit of assistance on some of these things.

John: (laughs).

Jim: Uh, Jerry, I think right at the end here, I, I really want to go back to put that emphasis on where we’re at in the church today.

John: Hmm.

Jim: I mean, what… As an example, Jean and I, I mean, she hates if we ever have to drive through Las Vegas, let alone go to Las Vegas for something, she’s like, “I never want to go to that town again. The billboards are horrible. I certainly don’t wanna take my kids through that town.” And that, that’s kind of where we’re at in the culture. We’ve gotta be offensive thinkers about being defensive spiritually.

Jerry: Right. Yeah.

John: Hmm.

Jim: Because this culture’s just so full of saturation of sex and everything else. Um, in the end, is it worth the effort to think through how to avoid those temptations?

Jerry: Well, it certainly has proven worth it to me. And I think, you know, when you talk about Vegas, there’s a hedge for, you don’t drive through Vegas, or, or if you do, put the blinders on, drive straight through and don’t look. Um, you know, people know what their weaknesses are and, and what they need to avoid. And, uh, when we see the lunacy that’s coming out of the society today, people wonder, what, whatever happened to the old-fashioned, leave it to Beaver and Father know best and stuff like that?

Jim: Yeah. It’s belittled.

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: It’s-

Jerry: It’s so amazing. It’s treated like it’s, it’s, it’s silliness. Uh, try it.

Jim: Yeah.

Jerry: Try having a solid marriage and, and family time and dinner time and talking to your kids and explaining these things and why you have hedges and see the, the wonderful benefits-

Jim: Well that’s, that’s a really good thing to do, especially if your kids are still in the home, obviously. And, uh, what a great parenting idea, especially if you’re raising boys-

Jerry: Yeah.

Jim: … uh, to be able to communicate to them what’s important, why you do these things in order to keep your relationship with your spouse, their mother, healthy and thriving. Uh, Jerry, this has been so good and we’ve covered it, and I hope people will pick up a copy of Hedges. You can do that directly through Focus on the Family. When you do, we’re not paying shareholders. All the proceeds go right back into ministry, either helping to save a marriage or save a baby’s life, or help parents do a better job parenting. That’s what we’re about here at Focus. So, uh, for a one time gift or a monthly gift, which is how Jean and I support focus, I know, John, you and Dena do that same way-

John: We do. Mm-hmm.

Jim: … uh, help us and we’ll send you a copy of this book Hedges, as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry.

John: Yeah. Donate generously as you can, either a monthly pledge or one time gift of any amount and request Jerry’s book Hedges: 7 Ways to Love Your Wife and Protect Your Marriage. And then, of course, we have so many other resources as well. Our number is 800-A-FAMILY, 800-232-6459. Or you can find the book details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And if your marriage is in a difficult place, please consider attending one of our Hope Restored marriage intensives. As a participating couple, you’ll receive counseling and helpful tools to transform your marriage. You can sign up for Hope Restored through the link at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Jerry as a parting thought and saying goodbye. Ephesians 5 says, “He who loves his wife loves himself.” How about that-

Jerry: Hmm. Love it.

Jim: … for a goodbye? And you’ve done that so well in Hedges and expressing why we husbands need to do what we need to do spiritually and practically to protect our marriages. Thanks for being with us.

Jerry: Oh, great to be with you, Jim and John. Always great.

John: And join us again next time for a conversation with Janel Breitenstein, who takes a look at some life skills to nurture in your children.

Janel Breitenstein: All the things that I wanted to do, pushing the obstacles out of my son’s way, because I just wanted to stop the pain. But a lot of times when I wanna stop the pain for my kids, it’s that pain and that shaping that God is longing to do in their lives.