Dr. Heather Holleman: So, the first thing that changed in my marriage was believing the best about Ashley. Meaning, the things that he’s doing, he’s doing for a reason. I don’t need to control him or nag him. So, I started complimenting him. I started, anytime he did anything, I would make sure I was admiring and respecting him. And it… Was that like, the first year of our m-
Mr. Ashley Holleman: I think so.
Heather: … it, it, pretty much after the first year-
Ashley: Yeah.
Heather: … that changed everything.
John Fuller: Dr. Heather Holleman and her husband, Ashley, are with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us, I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, one of our most popular programs from last year was with, um, Heather, and it was fantastic.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jim: And, uh, people responded. And we are quite confident that today’s broadcast will have that same kind of response because she just touches a great nerve when it comes to how to communicate. And if you’re in marriage, you get it. Uh, sometimes you’re doing it well, sometimes you’re not doing it well. I remember one time I’m reading the newspaper, watching a Broncos football game, and Jean’s talking to me. And I think I’ve developed a bit of that skill because of this job. (laughs)
John: (laughs) Yeah.
Jim: And she looked at me and said, “What did I just say?” And I gave it back to her verbatim. And she said-
John: (laughing)
Jim: … “I appreciate that, but I need your face.” And I thought-
John: Oh.
Jim: … “Uh-oh, I’m in trouble.” And yeah, that’s part of it. How do we communicate in a deeper way in our marriages to, uh, grow that intimacy, not just physically, but most importantly, emotionally, and spiritually?
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. There’s a yearning for so many of us, and we don’t know the path. This is gonna be a great show.
Uh, Heather’s husband, Ashley, is joining her for this, uh, conversation, as I said. He’s the Executive Director of Seated and Sent, a ministry he and Heather founded.
And, uh, Heather has studied and spoken about conversation and relationships. Uh, she’s an associate teaching professor of advanced writing at Penn State. And, uh, she’s a speaker and author. And her book is, uh, really the foundation for today’s conversation. It’s what we talked about last time, in fact-
Jim: Yeah.
John: … so it’s called The Six Conversations: Pathways to Connecting Again in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. Uh, get a copy of this book and learn more about our guests. Uh, we’ve got the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Heather and Ashley, welcome. Back to Focus on the Family for you, Heather. First time for Ashley. Welcome.
Ashley: Thank you so much. So glad to be here.
Jim: Good to have you both. Hey, Heather, let me start with you. We did have some discussions previously, and you are in that university setting.
Heather: Yes.
Jim: You’re teaching, you know, late teen, early twenty-somethings. And, uh, there seems to be a lot of loneliness expressed from that group. When researchers do the studies, they’re saying it’s one of the loneliest groups that they’ve seen at that age for as long as they’ve done some of the research. So, I guess a, a basic question before we even apply this to marriage and what’s happening there, what’s going on in the culture where people that are so connected digitally today-
Heather: Right.
Ashley: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … feel so alone?
Heather: Well, one of the problems is, we found just, we wrote this book, really talked about writing the Six Conversations ’cause of what we called the culture of incivility. Just people were really suspicious of each other. They approach each other not believing the best, just feeling like people were enemies coming out of, you know, even from 2016 on.
Also, people just have lost the skill of connecting from COVID. We were seeing a lot of, uh, research studies coming out about the lack of, just people were isolated, and they did not know how to reengage and connect. And also, recently we’ve been looking at it’s a culture of monologuing and not dialoguing.
Ashley: Mm.
Heather: So, think about TikTok and Instagram Reels, and people on their… They’re talking, they’re monologuing to an imagined audience, and there’s not a lot of, um, just interpersonal connection. So, I tell my students this is a number one professional skill you can develop is, the art of forming warm connections.
Jim: So, this is a bit of, the book is a bit of the curriculum that you do-
Heather: It is, it’s a, it’s a great curriculum.
Jim: … which is great.
Heather: Yeah.
Jim: And we’re gonna cover some of that-
Heather: Yes.
Ashley: Mm.
Jim: … and we won’t be able to get to all of it. Let me ask you, Ashley-
Ashley: Mm.
Jim: I mean, you’ve been married 25 years. And you know, the good thing about doing this with students is it does prepare them. Not all people are gonna get married, I get that.
Heather: (laughing)
Jim: We’re not making an idol outta marriage.
Heather: (laughing)
Jim: But many will get married. And in doing so, that really is great preparatory work for how to be in an intimate relationship with somebody. Let me ask it this way; The way God wired us, there’s that scripture that references that he created us for relationship and we tend to ignore that. I mean, it’s like our being-
Heather: Mm.
Jim: … is meant to be in relationship-
Ashley: Yeah.
Jim: … but we are working against that-
Heather: Yeah.
Jim: … natural God-given bent, it seems like.
Ashley: Yeah. At the core and essence of all of this is what it’s, uh, the essence of who God is.
Jim: Right.
Ashley: Even before the world was created, He, you know, existed in relationship with Himself; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And He had wonderful conversations with Himself. I can only imagine.
Jim: (laughs) Yeah. Right.
Ashley: And then He created the world for us to live in and created us in His image, and designed us in His image to relate similarly, and to have great conversations. And so, I’m someone, oh, Heather this comes very naturally to. I don’t, we can talk about that maybe more, but, uh, this is something I’ve really had to grow and learn in. But what gives me great hope is, God has fashioned me in His image-
Jim: Mm.
Ashley: … and so I, too, can have great conversations, meaningful connections. I’ve gotta work at it maybe more than others.
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: But it’s hardwired into who I am.
Jim: I think that’s great though. And so often, I mean, we tease all the time here at Focus on the Family how marriage, (laughs) you know, you’re not always the opposites are attracting, but often they are. It’s like introvert and extrovert-
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and those kinds of things. But it is kind of humorous that God puts something in us-
Ashley: (laughing)
Jim: … that we are attracted to the things we don’t possess-
Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. Totally.
Jim: … in order to, you know, the scripture talks about it completing us, right?
Heather: That’s right.
Jim: And then we’re, then we have a challenge. And it’s either gonna be a good thing or it’s gonna be irritating.
John: Mm-hmm.
Heather: Right.
Jim: You guys have been married 25 years. So, what do you, when you look at your own marriage, not to put you on the spot,
but I kinda am. What are those attributes that you look at in your own marriage that make your marriage healthy?
Heather: Well, for me it’s, we’ve really developed the conviction to continually be curious about one another.
Jim: That is awesome.
Heather: And ask really… I mean, being a student of each other. And I love it because I was just thinking about the verse in Colossians about how in Christ are hidden all the riches of wisdom and knowledge. And I think when I’m with Ash, I wanna seek out the wisdom of Christ that’s in him, because he’s a believer. You know, like, I wanna ask him good questions, like, “What is God teaching you? What are you learning about Him?” That’s been a real foundation of our marriage, at least in the last 10 years.
And then also, this is for me, and I don’t know if this is the same for you, Ashley, but believing the best about him has changed everything about our marriage. And not just believing it in my heart, but saying positive things to him every day, it changes the communication climate of our home. And that’s rooted in even the research we read from the Yale relationship lab about, it’s called “expressing liking.” You have to tell your spouse how much you like him (laughs) every day.
Jim: Hmm.
John: Mm-hmm.
Heather: So those are the two that have transformed me the most. Um, which are two of the four mindsets of a loving connection.
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: Yeah. I think for me, the whole, this the whole idea of oneness that God has called us to be one. Part of the way that, that gets worked out for us is just oneness of purpose and our mission, and embracing life is being sent ones and living, living life as those God has sent out to others.
Um, but also, I think as part of that is, one of the goals we talk, Heather talks about in the book of Meaningful Conversation, um, is sharing their goals, you know, or, or helping them grow, helping them reach their goals. And I love that about our marriage. It’s like, wait a minute, if God’s called us together and if, if Ephesians is it 2:10, you know, He’s got good works prepared in advance for us to do. Well, then He’s got good works prepared in advance for her to do, and for me to do, and for us to do together.
And there have been times in our marriage where they kinda tend to bump up against each other. It’s like, wait a minute, God’s got this worked out, we’ll figure this out together.
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: We don’t have to compete, um, about what, what God has for us, for our lives-
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: … if we really follow this oneness idea, so.
Jim: Yeah. Let me, uh, ’cause you said that so beautifully, both of you. And I’m thinking of the listeners that they’re not there. They didn’t do a PhD in communication, so they haven’t had those milestone breakthroughs yet. So, it was interesting in your answer, you’re kinda referencing, you learn to.
Heather: Yes.
Jim: So where, you know, where were those milestones for you? Year-five, year-three-
Ashley: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … six months?
Heather: Well, (laughs)-
Jim: When did it start where you’re going, “Okay, I need to, I need to express that I like you to Ash”? ~
Heather: Well, and, and this is embarrassing, but when we got married, I was a terrible wife. I was nagging, I was controlling. I kept a record of wrongs.
John: Hmm.
Heather: If he didn’t take out the trash. If he didn’t do the dishes. If he didn’t… I was terrible. And I don’t know where this came from, I guess I had the expectation of marriage that his entire job was to just make me happy and do whatever I say every day. It was terrible. Jim and John, I am confessing to you now. (laughs)
Jim: Yeah.
Heather: … I was, so-
Jim: I’m a little uneasy here. (laughs)
Heather: It was our marriage. Our, we had a marriage counselor-
Ashley: It wasn’t that bad, honestly.
Jim: Yeah, yeah.
Heather: Well-
Jim: No. But it’s good-
Ashley: Yeah. Yeah.
Jim: … these are normal things.
Heather: I-
Ashley: Mm-hmm.
Heather: Well, and we see marriages that function-
Ashley: Yeah.
Heather: … that way now, where there’s a lot of complaining and criticism. And the Lord really taught me, He used wise counselors, to talk about this idea of believing the best about your spouse. And that’s rooted, obviously in scripture, but it comes from the social science research of just how people grow, how people change. No one wants to be in an environment where you’re constantly being criticized or judged. So, the first thing that changed in my marriage was believing the best about Ashley. Meaning, the things that he’s doing, he’s doing for a reason. I don’t need to control him or nag him.
So, I started complimenting him. I started… Anytime he did anything, I would make sure I was admiring and respecting him. And was that like the first year of our m- it, it pretty much-
Ashley: I think so.
Heather: … after the first year-
Ashley: Yeah.
Heather: … that changed everything. So that was the first milestone. Um, and probably the second, biggest milestone for our marriage happened when we became involved as graduate students in the ministry of Cru, which was formerly Campus Crusade for Christ.
Jim: Right.
Heather: Because we learned how to share our faith. And we began what we call to this day, living a sent life together-
Jim: Sent.
Heather: … so that changed everything about the purpose-
Ashley: Yeah.
Heather: … of our marriage.
Jim: Let’s get that, the sent life.
Heather: Yes.
Ashley: Mm.
Jim: Ashley, what, what does that mean?
Ashley: It means believing that evangelism, loving others well, uh, being missional, um, serving others, however you want to put it, isn’t just something that we do, it’s who we are. Uh, as Jesus said in John 20:21, “As a father has sent me,” He’s saying this to his disciples and by extension to us, “so I send you.” And so, core to our identity as believers is that we’re sent ones. And so, this is not something we just do for God, but it’s something we do with God.
John: Mm.
Ashley: It’s not just something we have to do, but it’s something we get to do. It’s living life in expectation that God is always at work, that He is working around us all the time, that He invites us into that with Him, and we get to do this with Him. So, it’s, it’s really a mindset shift of, can I believe that God’s involving me in the great work that He’s doing in the world?
Jim: Yeah. Heather, let me ask you, you in the book pointed out a scripture. I think it’s Philippians 2:3 through 7.
Heather: Life changing.
Jim: It was life changing for you. And I think if I may let me read it, and-
Heather: I love Philippians 2.
Jim: … get you to respond to it.
Heather: This is such a great passage-
John: Mm. Mm.
Jim: Because I think it’s so critical and it really does shore it all up.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It says, again, Philippians 2:3 through 7, “Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit.”
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Jim: This is saying that you gotta stop and think about it, right? “Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility, count others more significant than yourselves.” Whew. That’s a problem in the culture. It continues, “Let each of you look, not only to his own interests-
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … “but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.” Kaboom.
Ashley: Mm-hmm.
Heather: I love it.
Jim: That is so good.
Heather: Right.
Jim: How did that speak to your heart and change your attitude?
Heather: Well, it, I believe that Philippians 2, also if you pair it probably with Romans 12, those two passages of scripture, I feel like are at the foundation for Christian discipleship and what it means to be a mature believer.
Jim: And Romans 12 just help-
Heather: Yes. That’s the one that’s like, you know, bless those who curse you, you know, show hospitality, weep with those who weep.
Jim: Right.
Heather: But it also says to value others above yourself. It’s a great parallel passage.
Jim: Yeah.
Heather: But what I learned about myself from Philippians 2, what the Holy Spirit was showing me is, Heather, you need to
value others above yourself. Take on their interest, be curious about them. Show positive regard to people, express concern about their life, and then humble yourself. One way to say it is, in any situation, instead of taking the highest place, take the lowest place. And that means that you position yourself to be a servant, even in conversation, that you’re not there to get all the attention. You’re not there to have everyone focus on you or monologue. And I- uh, I was someone who talked way too much as a child. (laughs)
And I just read that passage and I thought, “There’s a whole different way to live. I can enter a room and be a servant, I can enter a room and value the person who’s in front of me, really value them and honor them above myself.” And we do that through conversation. And what happens is, when you live that way, you’re gonna have warm connections with people. And then you’re gonna naturally transition to gospel conversations that don’t feel awkward, or like a pivot in the conversation or a sales pitch, ’cause you already have a warm connection ’cause you’re living out Philippians 2.
Jim: What’s so interesting about this is how contrary it is to the world-
Heather: It is.
Jim: … especially right now.
Heather: It is. (laughs)
Jim: We’re screaming and, you know, shouting at each other-
John: Mm.
Heather: Right.
Jim: … and division. To show up that way, people are attracted to that from every quarter of humanity. I mean, there’s something, they’re going, “Wow, that person really cares about me.”
Heather: Yes.
Jim: Who doesn’t want somebody to care about them?
Heather: Yes. Right.
Jim: Which is, you know, it is such the-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … magic of the Holy Spirit.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … if I could say it in that context. (laughs)
John: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jim: Just love people sincerely, and people’s hearts crack open. Let me, you’ve mentioned a couple times, but I really want the definition when you refer to positive regard. This is a term that comes out of psychology.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But let me put fearful people at ease. Don’t be distant from those things. I believe what most psychology is showing us is God’s design for humanity. And it’s right in there. And, uh, sometimes we have to say, “Wow, what does positive regard- how does that relate to Scripture?”
Ashley: Yeah. I love it ’cause it, it means that you really are believing the best about them. That you are choosing a, a mindset to choose. Like, I’m gonna move towards this person, and I’m gonna find what’s really good. You’re not ignoring.
what might be there. You’re just choosing as an attitude of your heart to say, God has built this person in His image, too. This person has great value. You’ve never met a nobody, that kind of thing. And can I really search out being curious what is really, really great about them? And can my heart be positively disposed towards them?
John: Yeah. Good reminders today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Our guests are Ashley and Heather Holleman. And, uh, we’re talking about some of the concepts in Heather’s great book, The Six Conversations: Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. We’re bringing that to a marriage context.
And you can get the book and learn more about all the help we have for you and your marriage, uh, at our website, and that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Heather, um, some of the practical things we need to apply in the book, you talked about the four Ls of a caring bond. Let’s cover those.
Heather: Well, that was just communication 101. It’s listening, and what I mean… Well, I’ll go through them. It’s listening; it’s limiting distractions, it’s letting others talk, and loving people through your face. That chapter is really just about, if you don’t know if you have some basic conversation skills, these are kind of the four ways to make sure you’re conversing well with people.
Jim: That… No, these are great principles.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You also have four, I believe, different mindsets, four different mindsets.
Heather: Oh, this is the game changer.
Jim: Okay. Lay it on us.
Heather: The four mindsets will change your life. Do you wanna add-
Jim: Okay.
Heather: … in anything…
Ashley: Th-
Heather: Well, Ash again, comes here today as the introvert, the, right? The one?
Ashley: Oh, yeah. That’s-
Heather: Right.
Ashley: … that’s the fun thing; we should probably lay that down first.
Heather: Yeah. Lay that out for them.
Jim: (laughing)
Ashley: As you can already tell Heather’s like, you know, really good at this and natural at this. I’m not, I’m more of an introvert. I stumble over my words. I think of the best thing to say like 14 days later, you know?
John: (laughing)
Heather: Right.
Ashley: And so, the joke that we have, but it’s kind of true too, is um, ’cause I think it helps people imagine, oh, I can do this. I don’t have to be Heather or someone like Heather to do this, is I’m proof of concept. You know, if, if I can do this-
Heather: Right.
Ashley: … anyone, you know, can do this, we can all grow in this. And so, yeah. But the mindsets have been super helpful with that.
Heather: Right. So, in order to have a warm connection with anyone, but in this case your spouse, you need to do four things. And if these four things are happening, you will feel a warm connection. So, you’re gonna be curious, you’re gonna ask really good questions rooted in the six dimensions of what it means to be human. You’re gonna believe the best, you’re gonna express concern, and you’re gonna share your life.
Now, as an introvert, Ash had to grow in curiosity. He just couldn’t think of, “I don’t even know what question to ask.” And then, “I don’t know what my next question is.” So, we’ll tell you how we solved that problem.
But, um, expressing concern and, um, me needing to grow and believing the best about people ’cause as you can imagine, I’m on a college campus, the political climate is very stressful-
Jim: Right.
Heather: I had to change my mindset and believe the best about people. And I wasn’t good at expressing concern, I didn’t know how to ask people the right questions to help them unburden really what’s going on in their life. And you only really need to know a couple things about your spouse. Like what are the major stressors today? Um, those kinda simple questions. And then being self-aware enough to share my own life with people. Meaning, you have to be someone that, you don’t have to necessarily keep a journal, but are you someone that’s self-aware enough that when your spouse says, “Hey, what have you been thinking about most today? Or what worries are keeping you up?” That, that you would know what to say. So.
Ashley: Yeah. For me it was, be curious, as Heather mentioned, was the hardest for me to grow in. And then share your life. And part of it was the self-aware part of, do I even know how to answer those questions? What’s really going on in my life? But the other part that I had to work through was, do I have anything really significant to say? And I really had to work through God, with God on that. Like, “No, I get to, I get to exist. (laughs) I get to be here; I get to talk. We wanna hear from you, you know?”
Jim: Yeah. I so appreciate that because-
Ashley: Yeah.
Jim: … I think a lot of young people, when you look in that context, they don’t feel-
Ashley: Yeah.
Jim: … whatever. Empowered-
Ashley: Yeah.
Jim: … uh, what I have to say matters much.
Ashley: Right.
Jim: Who’s gonna listen to me? And that’s not good, it’s not healthy.
Ashley: Right.
Heather: Well, no. And back to living our sent life, when Ash really believed he had things to share, he’s moved out in faith. And two people on our street have prayed to receive Christ recently just because he entered into loving conversation with them and shared his life and got to-
Jim: Wow.
Ashley: Yeah.
Jim: That’s amazing.
Heather: I know.
Ashley: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah. It’s so good.
Heather: Yeah.
Jim: I think it’s an obvious question, I don’t know that we all know the answer, but what, what are the goals, um, in creating conversation? I mean, do you-
Heather: Yes.
Jim: … do you have a goal in mind?
Heather: Yes.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Is it better not to have a goal in mind other than to be engaged, to make the eye contact, to ask values-oriented questions?
Heather: Well, this is what I loved, a lot of people might be listening and saying, “Well, I don’t even know where this conversation should end. Why am I even doing this?
Jim: (laughing)
Ashley: Why are we doing-
Jim: That might be the other question-
Heather: Well-
Ashley: Why, why-
Jim: Why are we doing this?
Heather: Yes. Well-
Jim: Yeah.
Heather: … what I learned, and this was so fascinating because the research just was lining right up to what scripture says. So, in any conversation, here’s where you wanna end. You wanna end in one of three ways. You wanna encourage, help someone with their goals, or lead to a state of marveling. This is a life-changing principle to imagine that every conversation with your spouse could lead you both to a state of awe. The research is astonishing. When you’re in a state of awe, you’re actually lowering your cortisol levels. You’re, you’re, you’re doing so many good (laughs) things for your mental health.
Jim: Yeah.
Heather: But it relates to, as you think about the point of our lives as worshiping. Think of, you know, the idea of speaking to each other in Psalms and spiritual hymns. And the way to lead someone to a state of awe is to look for divine activity.
So even this morning, you know, mentioning someone talking to me, um, in the hotel, and Ash is like, “That’s amazing. Do you think God, you know, sent that person to you?”
Jim: Huh.
Heather: And a- we’re marveling all of a sudden.
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: Mm-hmm.
Heather: So, look for divine activity. Talk about the Word together. Talk about God together. But in any interaction with any, with anyone, a neighbor, a child, you’re thinking, “How can I encourage this person? How can I help them with their goals, or lead them to a state of marveling?” Hebrews talks about spurring one another on-
John: Mm-hmm.
Heather: … towards love and good deeds.
John: Yeah.
Heather: So, and it’s not hard to keep all these things in your mind. People may be listening, thinking, “This is hard. I have four mindsets; I have six conversational pathways. I have, you know, these three fresh goals.” It’s actually not that hard to remember when you’re with someone.
Jim: Well-
Heather: … like, okay, I can, I can encourage this person. I can help them.
Jim: Yeah.
Heather: Yeah.
Jim: And, and it’s a good reason to get the book-
Heather: Right.
Jim: And I, Jean has devoured this. She’s read it seven, eight times and just loves the content. And I would say yes and amen. I’m getting it vicariously-
John: (laughing)
Jim: … through Jean, and it’s really, really awesome. Um, let’s speak right at the end here about conflict in marriage.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Um, you had a counselor who once gave you a suggestion-
Heather: Oh!
John: Hmm.
Jim: … for managing concerns. Let me frame this too, and again, I don’t want to be stereotypical. But fear is often something that wives feel. Men can feel this too. But I, my experience has been there’s a fear and control battle for wives and moms where fear rises, control rises. But speak to this construct of managing concerns or managing fear, if we put even a bigger label on it.
Heather: Well, this related to that first year of marriage where I was complaining all the time. A lot of it was rooted in fear, you’re absolutely right. But our marriage counselor gave us a life-changing tip, which I’m gonna let Ash share because I was, I thought, “This cannot work.” But it really did work, and it probably saved our marriage, it’s called the Thursday folder.
John: Mm-hmm.
Heather: Are you ready for this?
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: This is great. It saved your marriage, I, I-
Heather: It really did.
Ashley: … I believe ’cause at that point in our marriage, we were just fighting about a lot of things, just trying to sort out what life was gonna look like.
Jim: Disagreeing.
Ashley: Disagreeing-
Heather: Yeah. almost every conversation.
Jim: (laughing)
Ashley: We were, we were-
Heather: Every conversation was negative.
Ashley: We were curious and believing the best. No, we were, we were, maybe not so much. But we were, we were just having a lot of things we had to work out. And he said, “Do you guys notice that a lot of your time is spent working on your marriage? And, and in a way of just your fighting and struggling?” He goes, “Marriage is designed to be fun, and light and enjoyable, but you’re spending a lot of your time not doing that.” He goes, “What if you just set a time, Thursdays, where that would be where you worked on your marriage and the rest of the week you just enjoyed being married.” And he goes… we’re like, “Well, what do you do about, like, these things that happen in between?” He goes, “Get a notebook, write it down. So, you felt like you actually got to capture it, you got to express yourself a little bit. You didn’t just lose it. And then Thursday’s gonna come, don’t worry. And you can talk about it when Thursday comes, but then Friday through Wednesday, go enjoy your life.”
Jim: (laughs) That’s great.
John: Hmm.
Ashley: And you know what happens? Is by the time you get to Thursday, the things that just seems so huge, you’re like, “Oh, yeah, that was no big deal.”
Heather: It really helps!
Ashley: And-
Heather: Do you guys like that? You like that idea?
Jim: I like it. I think it compartmentalizes it.
Heather: Yes.
Jim: And the other thing that you mentioned, Ashley, is it gives you time to reduce the catastrophic nature of it-
Heather: Yes. (laughs)
Ashley: Yes. You know-
Heather: Yes.
Ashley: … ’cause everything else seems so important.
Heather: Yes.
Jim: Right.
Ashley: … in that moment.
Jim: I mean, I wish Jean and I would do that. We’d, when the, especially when the boys were like in junior high and you know, I’m a, I go to bed quick. So, by 10 o’clock my head’s on the pillow, I’m ready to go out. And Jean would say, “We need to talk about Trent.”
John: Mm.
Jim: I’m like, “What? What?” (laughs)
Heather: No, no. I know. Yes. (laughs) yeah.
Jim: And, but to her credit-
Heather: Right.
Jim: … she recalibrated-
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and realized when we’re having coffee in the morning, would be a great time to talk about what she wanted to talk about.
Heather: That’s a great point-
Ashley: Yeah.
Heather: … like choosing the right time.
Jim: Yeah. It’s so much of it.
Heather: Yeah-
Ashley: That was the other-
Heather: … choosing the right time.
Ashley: Yeah. That was the other advice that I was given was like, nothing good happens after 10 o’clock.
Jim: (laughing)
Ashley: So just like, don’t go to bed angry, but just kind of table it to the morning.
Heather: Right.
Jim: Let’s uh, end right here with this obvious question. The husband and wife who may not have that warm connection, they’ve kind of been in that rut-
Heather: Yes.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … for a long time. And it’s just habit now that we don’t compliment each other. We take each other for granted. Uh, what’s one thing, other than reading the book, –
Ashley: (laughing)
John: Mm.
Jim: … that they could do like tonight? What could we do differently tonight to help us?
Heather: Do we each get to say one?
Jim: Yeah. Let’s do that way.
Ashley: Right. Go ahead Heather.
Heather: I would say, and this is a little trick I learned to ask your spouse, this is what you say, “I wanna have a warm connection with you. What question are you hoping I’ll ask you about your life?”
Jim: Oh, Jean would love that.
Ashley: Yeah. I would say go back to the believing the best part. And one of the questions you can ask is, or one of the way of expressing liking is, “Do you remember the time we did…” Just a shared memory. And I think being able to go back and reminisce like for… about good times. Like, there were good times. There are strengths to our marriage. Can we remember those, and just kind of believe that good times will come again.
Jim: Yeah. That’s good. You know, we, we do something a four-day intensive, Hope Restored, for marriages that are in-
Heather: Yes.
Jim: … real trouble.
Heather: Yes.
Jim: And it’s got a great success rate. Two years later we go back and survey those couples. 80%, I think the latest was 81% still married and doing better.
John: Hmm.
Jim: But this is core to what they’re teaching in that four-day intensive is-
John: Mm.
Jim: … you once loved each other.
Ashley: Mm-hmm.
Heather: Yeah.
Jim: Something happened that was good.
Ashley: Mm-hmm.
Heather: Wow, that’s good.
Jim: How do we get back to that place-
Ashley: Yeah.
Jim: … so that we’re not pushing each other’s buttons, we’re not ignoring the core things-
Ashley: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … that make you, you and we show interest?
Heather: Yes.
Jim: All the things you talked about today. Man, if that’s where you’re at, or a lighter version of that, you’re just kind of going through the motions, it’s a business relationship. She’s your roommate. That’s not what God intended for you. There’s so much more. And uh, Heather’s done a great job with Ashley’s input, obviously-
Heather: Yes.
Jim: … and life experience in this wonderful book, The Six Conversations: Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. Boom. That kind of is the neon sign today.
And what great advice you’ve given us, Heather, and Ashley. Thank you for being with us.
Heather: Thank you.
Ashley: Thank you so much.
Jim: And man, the best we can do is if you can make a gift – monthly or a one-time gift of any amount to Focus on the Family, we’ll send you a copy of this book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. We believe in the content so much that it’s going to help you that if you can’t afford it, get in touch with us and we’ll trust others will cover the cost of this.
John: Yeah. Contact us today to donate and request that book. 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Or you’ll find all the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
And thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
