Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Day One:

Preview:

Dr. Meg Meeker: Being boy is good, male is good, masculinity is good. And guess what? It’s very different from womanhood and femininity. And I think that many people feel if you fuse the two, you can find this sort of no man’s land, where you can be a little of this and a little of that, but you can’t.

John Fuller: Well, that’s Dr. Meg Meeker. She’s our guest today, sharing about the importance of allowing and encouraging boys to embrace their natural tendencies to be adventure-seeking and risk-taking. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, and Dr. Meeker will offer her insights about boyhood today, offering a pretty compelling narrative that challenges some of the modern, uh, paradigms.

Jim Daly: Yeah, John, I think today boys are growing up in a world that is often at odds with their emerging masculinity. I mean, we talk about that as toxic and all those kind of adjectives we throw at it. But I am glad. I grew up at a time when boys could be boys, and we got into trouble, and we did things and, you know, it- it’s just been boy, innocent boy stuff, you know, trying to be adventuresome in the neighborhood-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … or whatever it might be. But these are things that are so discouraged now that the culture frowns upon. And I am looking forward to our discussion today with Dr. Meg Meeker, pediatrician, and she has so many years of knowledge about boys and girls, too. But today, we’re talking about her book, Boys Should Be Boys: 7 Secrets to Raising Healthy Sons. Having two boys, I’m looking forward to this.

John: There’s a lot of content here, and we’re gonna get into it. Uh, Dr. Meeker is always a great guest, a popular guest. She’s widely recognized as one of the country’s leading authorities on parenting and teens and children’s health. Uh, you mentioned the book, and we have that here at the ministry. Learn more about Dr. Meeker and her book when you stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or give us a call, 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.

Jim: Meg, welcome back.

Dr. Meeker: Oh, thank you so much.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Meeker: I love seeing you. I love being here. It’s always so uplifting and encouraging.

Jim: Well, it’s fun. And-

Dr. Meeker: So, it is fun.

Jim: You know, it’s… Uh, I think the opening question is a little off, uh, topic, but, you know, you have been a pediatrician for about 30 years-

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … I think you mentioned to me. 30 years of observing young people and some of these patients you’ve known for a long time, right?

Dr. Meeker: Yep, yeah.

Jim: When you look at the culture, when you first became a pediatrician to now-

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … do you see a drastic change in the environment, just generally?

Dr. Meeker: Oh, oh. (laughs) It’s enormous. And as we were talking before, people say, “Well, aren’t you gonna retire?” And I said, “No, because the challenges that parents have now are so much more intense than they were 10, 20 years ago.” When I was in medical school, just, you know, to kind of, uh, it, this dates myself, but, uh, in the ’80s, in the DSM-4, 3, at that time, homosexuality was a psychiatric disorder.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: In, in the… And I’m not saying that… Yeah. And now we’ve got, um, we’ve got so much more that, you know, w- with the, uh, transgender, we’ve got the drug use, we’ve got huge rise in depression and anxiety. And when I came out of medical school, really, it was a psychiatrist who took care of kids with anxiety and depression. Pediatricians didn’t have to know that much about it. That has completely shifted because now psychiatrists ha- are, uh, so full with taking care of the kids who are schizophrenic, manic depression, that a lot of it is spilled into the laps of pediatricians. So we have learned how to take care of anxiety and depression because it’s such a big part of our work. That’s huge.

Jim: Right.

Dr. Meeker: And a lot of pediatricians don’t know what to do because, um, it takes a lot of time and energy and, and training to learn how to take care of kids with depression and anxiety. So on many levels, it’s really changed.

Jim: Yeah, it’s kind of interesting.

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Uh, because the pediatricians, I mean, you’re seeing these kids for the first time and for a long time working with the parents on their physical wellbeing, but their emotional wellbeing as well, more so than any other specialty, obviously.

Dr. Meeker: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jim: So you’re, you know, right from the get-go, you’re with the mom and dad. I can remember those early visits. We had some hilarious visits with our pediatrician-

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … with Trent and Troy. They were actually-

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: … our one, uh, doctor was just, had a great sense of humor.

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So he would tug at us as parents and go to our weaknesses pretty constantly, you know?

John: (laughs)

Dr. Meeker: (laughs) It’s fun.

John: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah. It was just fun. Yes.

Jim: We were the overzealous parents-

Dr. Meeker: Oh, yeah.

Jim: … so you remember that type of-

Dr. Meeker: Oh, well, yes, exactly.

Jim: … so you’d hook them and bring them in, you know?

Dr. Meeker: You do, yes.

Jim: But in that regard, you wrote this book probably 10 years ago now.

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Boys Should Be Boys: 7 Secrets to Raising Healthy Sons. I would think you’re saying now this is even more intense.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: And speak to that environment with boys, uh, that I led with, in terms of how we, as a culture, are underserving boys and not allowing them to be boys.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah, absolutely. I wrote this book because doing my research for my book, Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters, I realized how under siege men are, adult men, and how masculinity had taken on this in the public, it connoted, oppression, people being mean, from a woman’s standpoint. Women sort of-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: … you know, taught this. And I thought, “Wow,” you know, “If this is happening to men, what’s happening to boys?” And that’s what really prompted me writing The Boy Should Be Boy book, because I saw this emergence of the, um, degradation of masculinity and turning masculinity into an ugly, dirty word. And I think that comes out of a lot of the women’s movement, you know, from way back. But I really did it, and, and I, I really believe it’s more pertinent now than ever because in the book, I say, “Being boy is good, male is good, masculinity is good. And guess what? It’s very different from womanhood and femininity.” And I think that many people feel, if you fuse the two, you can find this sort of no man’s land where you can be a little of this and a little of that, but you can’t.

Jim: It’s so true. And, and I am thinking about the messaging that occurs toward boys, that in somehow, just because you’re a boy, you’re bad.

Dr. Meeker: Exactly.

Jim: And we may not even notice that-

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: … even as parents, but how the schools disparage that.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: Um, what is happening in the culture, I think in both parts, one that we have to be equal-

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and we have to, as teachers and people engaged with young people, we have to communicate that. And then secondly, this idea that boys are worse than girls.

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And rather than both are beautiful, both are great, both are created in God’s image.

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But who’s winning with that?

Dr. Meeker: Well, you know, we say everybody has to be equal, but we don’t really mean it. We want women to be more powerful than men. And this is what’s really emerged.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meeker: And this is where the denigration of masculinity, the idea of masculinity, manhood has come from. And I’ve seen it, you know, um, all along since the late ’70s and into the ’80s, you know, the emergence of women’s power. Women don’t wanna be equal to men. They wanna be better, and they wanna pound. And it’s too bad, the idea that you can champion both a boy and a girl or a man or woman side by side, they don’t believe that’s true. One has to win, or the other has to win. If you look in early elementary schools, a lot of the school teachers are women. And when they come into a classroom and they’ve been taught via, you know, subconsciously, television, radio, media, and so forth, that masculinity is not a good thing, that boys are kind of out of control, they need to be medicated ’cause they’re just too bouncing, they don’t color in the lines, you’ve got a bunch of young women who are in early elementary and elementary schools. And so, there’s this natural undergirding bias against boys that begins that early.

Jim: Huh. Well, I, you know-

Dr. Meeker: Yep.

Jim: … I… This is a comedic, uh, example of that. But, you know, when you’re at Christmastime, you’re watching The Christmas Story. And so who’s out at the flagpole sticking their tongue on the flagpole?

Dr. Meeker: Exactly.

Jim: It’s not a bunch of girls, it’s the boys.

Dr. Meeker: It’s the boys.

Jim: The double dog derriac type.

Dr. Meeker: Yes, exactly.

John: (laughs)

Jim: That is an elementary school playground.

Dr. Meeker: Exactly.

Jim: And that, that’s what I remember.

Dr. Meeker: Right.

Jim: And the point is, it’s unhealthy to work against that-

Dr. Meeker: Right.

Jim: … and to tell boys not to be daring-

Dr. Meeker: Right.

Jim: … not to be adventuresome. It, it is kind of that God-given instinct-

Dr. Meeker: It-

Jim: … of what we are is male.

Dr. Meeker: It is.

Jim: … is to go to the edge, to be the pioneer. It doesn’t preclude girls from doing things like that. But, man, don’t make us girls.

Dr. Meeker: Well, and that’s the big rub, is that I don’t believe… I believe we’re at a time where we don’t really want two sexes, we want neutrality. We want sameness, and we don’t want equality, we want sameness. And in order to do that, we have to emasculate men and boys. And I think that, you know, it’s interesting you talk about risk, taking a risk, we’re also a very risk-averse society.

Jim: Mm-hmm

John: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meeker: We don’t want anybody to be harmed. Parents, young parents, they don’t want their kids vaccinated. They don’t want them this, they don’t want them on antibiotics. Some young parents will say, “I don’t want my parents to hold my baby because for the first three months ’cause of this and this and this.” We don’t want anybody taking risk. And if there’s anything inherent to masculinity, it’s risk-taking. It’s very interesting, too, because we can say or articulate the differences between men and women, boys and girls. But think about this. You ask any kid if his mom was different from his dad, there’s no question.

Jim: Absolutely.

Dr. Meeker: You were a little more afraid of your dad. I was. You also, look, I can’t tell you the number of mothers, single mothers I see who are afraid of their teenage boys.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meeker: Because teenage boys are angry who don’t have a dad around, and they will go at their mother. If you think about to what, what was it in, uh, Louisiana a number of years ago where they had a lot of violence in the school. And, um, these kids were out of control, these teenage boys were out of control. And, uh, 40 men in the area said, “We’re done with this. We are going to appoint one dad to go in the school every day and just walk the halls.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meeker: And so, one man, I think there were African Americans, walked in the halls and within two weeks, the violence went away.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: Masculinity is, it’s a presence, it’s a power, it’s a, a spirit, if you will, in a very positive way that’s very different from the feminine spirit. And it’s so powerful it’s hard to articulate it, and yet everybody knows it’s there. But we’re in a culture that wants to neutralize masculinity and then femininity as well.

Jim: Well, one of the things that the culture works against, men know this, boys know this, there is a pecking order.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: You go to the gym, there’s a pecking order.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know it pretty quickly when you walk in who’s the top dog, who’s the second in command, who’s at the bottom. It just is.

Dr. Meeker: Yes.

Jim: It’s true on the playground when you’re picking teams. Thankfully, I used to be the guy that got to pick some of the teams, ended up quarterback of the football team. I mean, there’s part of that. And again, there’s just this institutional hatred toward even that orientation that there should be leadership in the playground.

Dr. Meeker: Right.

Jim: We want to eliminate leadership in the playground. Why do we want to do that? Well, let’s get to the book content. You list seven secrets. I want to get into that. So why don’t you just list them and then we’ll come back and ask some questions about each one?

Dr. Meeker: You bet. Uh, know how to encourage your son, understand what your boys need. Their needs are different from girls. Recognize that boys were made for the outdoors, sticks and trees and rocks. Remember that boys need rules.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Meeker: Acknowledge that virtue is not just for girls. Learn how to teach your son about the big questions in life. And remember that the most important person in your son’s life is you. Now, those sound very basic, but when you really drill down, a lot of parents, when it comes to boys, particularly mothers, “How do I encourage my son? What do I say? You know, I don’t wanna step on toes.” So they sound basic, but when you actually try to live them out, it can be a little trickier.

Jim: No, that’s good. Let’s go to the first one and unpack that a little bit. That’s knowing how to encourage their sons. You’re not talking about false praise-

Dr. Meeker: No.

Jim: … because we sniffed that out pretty quick, too. Everybody gets a trophy.

John: Yeah. (laughs)

Jim: That ain’t true.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: And, uh, sorry for the grammar there, but the, it’s on purpose.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: But the idea that it’s not false praise that sons need-

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: … but what do they need in that area of, of lifting up?

Dr. Meeker: Well, again, fundamentally, parents need to understand your boy is not your daughter. So if you’re going to encourage your son in the correct way, in a biblical way, you encourage his masculinity.

Jim: What does that sound like? Gimme an example.

Dr. Meeker: It, it sounds like, you know, “Go outside and find something to do and go make a fort. Go, go figure out what to do. Take a risk. Climb the tree, make snowballs. Make an ice fort. If you fall off the top of it, it’s okay.” You know, to really encourage your kids to live and to… (laughs) I always say, every playground at school should have a couple of big trees in it. You’d never find a tree in a playground at school, ’cause they don’t want the boys to fall out and hurt themselves.

Jim: Right. (laughs)

Dr. Meeker: Or they don’t want the boys to be able to climb the top, top of the tree and the girls can’t.

John: They’ve been changing a lot of the equipment at schools near us.

Dr. Meeker: Yes.

Jim: Seriously.

John: They’ve been making it safe. Oh, the slides are gone, the metal slides are gone.

Jim: Everything’s flat. (laughs)

John: Everything… There’s all the plastic chips at the bottom now. So when you, when you fall, you hit something’s soft.

Dr. Meeker: So if you’re going to encourage your son to walk in a masculine way, you encourage him to use his physical and emotional strength.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meeker: And that means climbing and running and, yes, hitting, maybe not other people, but encourage that physical strength. Because the bottom line is men are stronger than women.

Jim: I mean, again, Meg, some people are gonna be hearing this and going, “Oh my gosh, that’s so archaic.”

Dr. Meeker: Well-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: “They are so behind the times.” And it’s fine because this is what we all agree on. You know, in terms of the Christian ethos to this, men will be men. We need Davids.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: We need the little boy Davids-

Dr. Meeker: We do.

Jim: … in the playgrounds.

Dr. Meeker: Exactly. Who are not afraid. Who, who are-

Jim: Yeah, meaning, “I’ll sl- I’ll slay the giant. Give it to me.”

Dr. Meeker: Exactly. “I will get hurt. I don’t mind being wounded. I don’t even mind my feelings being hurt and a girl calling me something.” And for those who say that men aren’t stronger than women, I would ask any woman out there, if you’re in downtown Chicago at 1:00 in the morning, do you feel differently walking on a dark street alone or with a six-foot-two husband? There’s no question.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

John: Mm-hmm. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guest today is Dr. Meg Meeker. We’re covering some of the content in her terrific book, Boys Should Be Boys: 7 Secrets to Raising Healthy Sons. Get a copy from us here at the ministry. The link is at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: John, you have a daughter that’s very outdoorsy.

John: I do.

Jim: So I know that was running through your head.

John: Yeah.

Jim: Uh, so it’s not, again, it’s not a one-size-fits-all. But I mean she’s, she’s worked-

John: She lives-

Jim: … in parks.

John: She, she lives outdoors, and climbs mountains and runs marathons. And there’s no end to her delight in being outdoors.

Jim: (laughs)

John: But she also has this very feminine side to her that wants to connect with people, that has this huge heart, particularly for kids who are at risk and, and struggling. So I see kind of that mom part of her built-in kind of coming out. But yeah, there-

Jim: But that’s interesting, Meg. I mean, again, this isn’t a one-size-fits-all. And so you go with your child’s bent in that regard. If they love the outdoors, that’s great.

Dr. Meeker: And that’s what God did with us.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: You know, He created us so differently and that’s what freedom really is. Having the freedom to embody different parts of your character, the feminine part of your character with its soft and tender and wants to be very patient and kind. But there’s also a different part of your feminine character, which means you can be very physically strong and capable. I have a… My niece is an elite athlete from University of Michigan. She’s very kind and sweet. And the freedom for the male is that I can be fully masculine and I can capitalize on my physical strengths, my tendency to wanna take a risk, to wanna drive fast, even though, you know, it’s not a smart thing, but I can embrace that. But I can also embrace another side of me that loves opera, that wants to, you know, take care of my wife, uh, you know, when she’s really sick, the tenderness. And that’s the beauty of the complexity of the human spirit and the human person.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meeker: And I think that the damage we do with boys, in particular, is we try to put them in a lane, and we say, “This is your lane, and it cannot include traditionally masculine character qualities ’cause we don’t like them.”

Jim: Absolutely. You know, right now I’m thinking of the Good Samaritan things that are happening in the culture. And not long ago, we had that case in New York where that man took action against somebody who is threatening the lives of those on the subway. And, of course, there’s been the person that was set on fire. The context for my question is this, when the culture diminishes masculinity, you have fewer people willing to step up to right injustices because the cost becomes too high.

Dr. Meeker: We are less safe.

Jim: But it is evidence of exactly what you’re talking about. When we don’t encourage good men to take charge, to step up, to engage when there’s danger, you’re gonna have a lot of just passerbys.

Dr. Meeker: You know, we’re really willing to shred truth and get rid of truth in order to create a narrative we want. It fits our feelings.

Jim: Huh.

Dr. Meeker: You know, men don’t need to be strong. We don’t need them to help us on a subway because they’re really not any different from us. Which means then, if somebody steps up to get rid of a guy who’s harming you, that’s a bad thing. How twisted is that?

Jim: Yeah. Just to control the situation.

Dr. Meeker: Just to control the narrative that masculinity is a bad thing, therefore, it can’t be exercised even if someone’s life is at risk. That is so twisted.

Jim: Yeah. Listen, let’s move to number two. Uh, secret number two is understanding what our boys need.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: Now, explain that. What does that mean, knowing what they need?

Dr. Meeker: Well, they need a lot-

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Meeker: … ’cause they’re very complicated people, just like women are complicated people. First of all, the discouragement to many dads out there with a four or five-year-old kid who falls down on the playground and starts to cry, and the dad comes up and just said, you know, “Just don’t act like a girl. Just, you don’t need to cry. Just sort of suck it up. Boy, men should not behave like this.” And then the mother comes in and criticizes the dad. Boys are emotional creatures. Boys, in large part, get their emotional language from their mothers, in general. Now, there’s some dads who teach it to their sons. And by that I mean before child is age seven, they learn cues from their mom about, is it okay to cry? I feel like I wanna cry, but dad’s looking at me like I’m a bad person if I do.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meeker: No, it’s okay to cry. It’s okay to be sad. It’s okay to feel. It’s okay to, um, you know, feel very compassionate. So mothers need to learn that that’s part of their son’s life, is building a solid emotional life and feeling secure and good about it. So that’s a need that boys have usually comes from the mom. This emotional language. Then as boys get older, it’s all about dad. Because I often say a boy needs to learn how to be a man by watching a good man. He needs to see a man in action. Boys watch their fathers. So moms need to move out of the way, and it’s got all about dad in the teen years. Teach your son how to be a man who treats women well, who is not threatened by women, who is not threatened by being a strong man and exercising his ability to do well what his female counterpart can’t. And to be okay with that.

Jim: Yeah. You know, Meg, uh, our experience with our oldest, particularly, I mean, he, he, he was not a compliant child. (laughs) And so he had his decisions, and he knew where he wanted to go I mean, pretty much right out of the womb, I’d say, and Trent was just that strong-minded. I can remember when we were doing foster care, we had the foster kids in, first, he was terrific with those kids. It was amazing. He became the big brother and I was so proud of him. And he was kind of struggling at school a bit at that time. And I remember saying to Jean, you know, it’s pretty awesome, he gets an A plus for being a big brother to these foster kids. We need to recognize that-

John: Yeah.

Jim: … capability. And he really got into it. He just, his heart was for those kids. It was amazing. Um, but I remember specifically a time when he was no longer at the house. He had moved out and was going to college and still is. (laughs)

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But he came over for dinner, had a great meal that Jean had prepared, and he sent a text and said, “Mom, thank you so much for taking the time to make that great meal tonight.” And I remember looking at it, Jean came and showed it to me and I went, “Who is that?” (laughs)

John: (laughs)

Jim: But it was a, it was a moment that his maturity caught up. And I mean, it’s rare that he doesn’t send a note like that to Jean after coming over for dinner now. Very consistent-

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and very mature, very thankful. And I, I think it’s just encouragement to parents, uh, to allow their boy’s brain to catch up. Like the male brain matures like at 25 is what the research is showing. So you may need a little more grace for some boys because they may not always get it. But speak to that idea for the parent to be looking outward, ’cause we’re so in the moment.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: But, you know, when that child is 22, 23, 24, that boy, you’re gonna see some significant changes or you should in attitude.

Dr. Meeker: Absolutely. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had parents of a 15, 14-year-old boy-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: … come in and say, “He won’t study. He won’t do anything. He’s so unmotivated. He just…” And I said, you know, “A, his story isn’t written. And the way he is at 14, it’s not gonna be the way he is at 15.” And I often tell parents, “Your job as a parent when your child is two or three or five is to raise a great 25-year-old.” So here’s the good news and the bad news. If your child is acting, you know, lazy at 15, and he doesn’t wanna be motivated, which is really common for boys at 15.

Jim: Typical.

Dr. Meeker: Here’s the good news, you have 10 more years-

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Meeker: … to help him get it right. (laughs) And so you’re absolutely right. You know, maturity, physical maturity, a cognitive maturity, emotional maturity, those are critical, that’s a critical 10-year period.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: So to really encourage parents, you know, whatever antics your, your son is up to at 15 or not up to, it’s gonna be completely different. You can have a… I remember my son went through a period, he just really didn’t wanna talk to me. It just broke my heart. What was I doing? I couldn’t… I, I tried to talk to him on emotionally a more deeper level. And he didn’t wanna do that.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Meeker: He just didn’t wanna do it. But I had to convince him-

Jim: That’s gross.

Dr. Meeker: … that he really should because I’m his mother, and I’m tender. And he pushed away and my feelings were so hurt. Then I realized he’s a boy. Let him go. That’s a whole show unto itself.

Jim: Ooh, yeah.

Dr. Meeker: Let him go. Because he’ll circle back around-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: … and then he’ll write the notes. And for my son, it was sending tulips.

Jim: Oh, my. Yeah. And all the moms-

Dr. Meeker: Never got them from my daughters.

Jim: All the moms begin to cry.

Dr. Meeker: But he didn’t do it when, until he was in his, well into his 20s.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meeker: He wouldn’t talk to me at 15, sending tulips at 25.

Jim: But I think, Meg, the, the difficulty with that, I think particularly for moms, it is hard to think out 7 years, 10 years.

Dr. Meeker: Yes.

Jim: ‘Cause it… The emotions are right here in front of you. It’s so tangible. And you don’t think this caveman is ever gonna get-

John: (laughs)

Jim: … you know, mature. Like, how many times have you told them to say, “Please and thank you,” and it’s still not working, and they’re 15? And, you know, you get in this moment where you can’t imagine them being smarter, better, more thoughtful at 23, 24.

Dr. Meeker: Well, and you fit… And a mother panics. And dad’s probably, too. If they’re not doing it, and I’ve had them for 15 years under my roof, if he doesn’t get it now, he’s never gonna get it. That’s not true. You know, your son knows what you want. He knows you want him to say please and thank you, but for some reason that has nothing to do with you, he’s just not ready to do it. Let him be. And so I really wanna encourage parents, you have to think of the long game. At 15, at 10, even at 18, the his story isn’t written, and I’ve been doing this long enough. I’ve, I’ve worked with a whole generation of parents now, and now I’m seeing their kids. So I really can say this with a lot of honesty and sincerity. Let him be, his story isn’t written at 15.

Jim: Yeah. And then (laughs) boy, and then hang on.

Dr. Meeker: Hang on.

Jim: It’ll, it’ll get better. Trust us. (laughs) Meg, this has been so good. Let’s, uh, continue. We’ve really only covered three. And that third one we kinda did prior to number two, which is, you know, allowing your boys to be outside and be physical and do that outdoor stuff. Let’s pick up next time, uh, with the rest of the seven, and we’ll dive into those. Thank you for being with us.

Dr. Meeker: Oh, thank you. It’s so much fun.

Jim: Yeah. And I hope this has grabbed your imagination. Whether you’re the parent of a boy, or the grandparent of a young man, this is a resource that you need to get. And, uh, man, share it with those around you who are struggling. How many people at church do you see? And we saw, we just went to an amusement park and, man, the out-of-control kids. (laughs) I was like, I just wish I had a box of resources I could hand this book and other books out, too. But it’s, uh, always an opportunity to be a light in someone’s life and to do that with wisdom, obviously. But get a copy of Meg’s book, Boys Should Be Boys: 7 Secrets to Raising Healthy Sons. I think it addresses all the key issues of the culture today. And you can get that directly through Focus, if you can give us a gift on a monthly basis, that’d be great. Be a part of the ministry helping, uh, parents and helping marriages, helping save babies. I can’t think of a bad thing that we do here, John.

John: Yeah.

Jim: So be part of it. Help us in every way. And, uh, sign up to be a monthly sustainer. A one-time gift is good as well, but we’ll send you a copy of Meg’s book as our way of saying thank you when you support the ministry in that way.

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah, our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Or we’ve got details, uh, for how you can donate and request resources, including this book, Boys Should Be Boys at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And on behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for part one of what is now a two-part conversation with Dr. Meg Meeker. Plan to join us next time as we continue the conversation and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Day Two:

Dr. Meg Meeker: Two of the best things any good dad can do to a son, make sure you grow your son’s faith, take him to church, teach him about God, share your experiences and be present in his life. If you only do those two things, your kid’s not gonna go wrong.

John Fuller: Dr. Meg Meeker is our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. She’ll be encouraging you as a parent to steer your sons toward healthy masculinity. I’m John Fuller, and Dr. Meeker has some great advice for us as she returns for a second day. And if you didn’t catch the previous episode, you can listen to that at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: John, we spoke with Dr. Meeker last time about encouraging and guiding our sons. You have boys. I have boys. You also have daughters.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But man, I’ve lived that, being the dad of two sons, uh, how to encourage them, how to guide them, how to control them,-

John: (laughs)

Jim: … how to get them in a headlock when necessary. (laughs)

John: They’re so physical. Oh my goodness.

Jim: I love it. We used to wrestle in the basement and Jean would yell down from upstairs, “Everything okay down there?” “Yeah, we’re just, uh, doing normal stuff.”

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: Oof, off, oof.

Dr. Meeker: (laughs).

Jim: You know, it was so much fun. But the boys loved it. I mean, we did Nerf fights at night with glow in the dark Nerf bullets and all kinds of… It was a blast.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: I love being a dad of boys.

John: And Dr. Meg Meeker, as I said, is here. Uh, she is a leading pediatrician helping parents with, um, really critical, helpful insights on children and teens. Uh, she’s written a number of books and we’re drawing on one of those in particular, uh, for these conversations, Boys Should Be Boys: 7 Secrets to Raising Healthy Sons. And, uh, we have copies of this book here at the Ministry. You can find out more about getting a copy and about our guest when you stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Meg, welcome back.

Dr. Meeker: Well, thanks for having me back.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Meeker: It’s so much fun.

Jim: It was good, uh, our last conversation was a good kickoff to how do we raise boys into manhood and do that well, and, and really mom’s roles in doing that, uh, particularly. You know, let me ask you this question. And, and last time we talked about this as well. So if you didn’t hear the program last time, go back and listen to it.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You can get that at the website or get the app for your phone and you can listen to all the programs. Um, but this idea that there have been bad men.

Dr. Meeker: Oh, yeah.

Jim: We can’t be, you know, naive about this. There is a certain negative expression of masculinity where it’s power, it’s, often it’s sexual abuse or physical abuse. Because we are physically stronger, we can dominate in that way, we can intimidate. So those things are all true. But it’s kind of like anything where if 5% are horrible, and that may be quite high,-

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … but whatever small percentage are terrible, then it gets applied to everybody.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: And that’s not the case.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, again, if you have, uh, 95, 97% of men are good people that want to live life well and protect and provide and do those things that we believe in, that’s a good thing. But don’t paint us with the broad stroke of that other three to 5% that may be misbehaving.

Dr. Meeker: Well, and that’s been a huge problem, is that culturally, because women have dominated the narrative about who men are, and it’s primarily been negative, “We won’t put up with this. We won’t put…” You know, the Me Too Movement. “We’re not gonna put up with the sexual abuse and so forth.” Okay, that’s all good. But when there’s no positive to balance it, it’s like all men have been thrown into the same pot. You’re all potentially sexual abusers. So I have to treat you as though you’re very dangerous. Because the narrative for women has been rewritten by feminists. And now we’re sort of trying to settle it. It’s like, “Wait a minute. We really do wanna be home with our kids. Wait a minute, we really do wanna do this.” That hasn’t happened with men. The only people trying to redefine masculinity have been women. And what they’re trying to do is say, “No, no, no. We wanna sort of neuter you a little bit. We want you nice. We want you quiet. We want you kind. We don’t really want you at the center of the family. We want you to kind of orbit.” Christ was a lion and a lamb. We do lambs really well because they’re safe. We don’t like lions. And there’s a part of masculinity that has that lion persona.

Jim: Yeah, wow. That’s a, that’s a powerful statement.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: A powerful statement. Listen, uh, last time we started with your seven secrets to helping boys grow into manhood. I wanna pick up with that. Again, people can go back and listen to the others.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Number four was, remember that boys need rules.

Dr. Meeker: Yes.

Jim: (Laughs) Every, all the guys here went, “Oh, no, not that one.”

Dr. Meeker: Boys are dangerous creatures. For their survival, they need walls to run into, to be blunt.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Meeker: Henry Cloud would say the wall is the boundary. I’m saying with a boy, it’s a wall, because they need to run into something, go, “Oh, that, that’s not gonna work.”

Jim: “That doesn’t feel good.”

Dr. Meeker: “It doesn’t feel good. I can’t do that.” And in many ways, you know, when they’re a teenage boy, they need a man to run into because he may be the only boundary. And that’s how they feel safe. Boys need clear boundaries and rules, and they do fine with them because if men are anything, they go, “Oh, problem? Tell me the solution. Got it.” Women will not share their, you know, what’s causing the problem and how can, you know, we solve the problem, and there’s 10 different solutions. No, tell the boy, “You have to be home by midnight, and if you not be home by midnight, this is what’s gonna happen. You can’t drive the car for a month.” No, no. That will oppress this. No, we need to keep our sons safe, physically, emotionally, and so forth. They need rules.

Jim: In this case, let’s talk about the s- the smartphones around this issue.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah. Yeah.

Jim: Have you seen a change of that?

Dr. Meeker: Oh, smartphones, (laughs) first of all, I, I hate-

Jim: Smartphones, dumb people.

Dr. Meeker: Smartphones, dumb people. I hate them. Uh, my husband uses a flip phone because he, he… Anyway, yeah. Phone use and, and social media, which girls aren’t particularly on social media, but too much screen time is very bad for boys because many teenage boys have difficulty communicating and articulating feelings and thoughts, particularly to girls. This makes it 10 times worse because they’re less engaged in healthy conversation and communication. And so the less time boys spend with screens, the healthier they’re going to be emotionally. And the relationships are gonna be much, much healthier the less time they are on screens. And for boys, a lot of that screen time is video games. We know the more time a boy spends on a violent video game, the more aggressive he becomes. It rewires his brain.

Jim: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: Clearly.

Jim: In the book Boys Should Be Boys, you, uh, mentioned George, I’m sure it’s a different name-

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … for this person, but this, this college, I don’t know if he’s college age or younger, who had an addiction to gaming. Describe George’s plight and what needed to be done.

Dr. Meeker: And it’s not… Sad to say, it’s not that unusual.

Jim: Correct.

Dr. Meeker: This is a boy that started gaming, liked it, an hour or two a… And I, and I wanna say very well-educated, conscientious, good parents, friends of mine.

Jim: Sure.

Dr. Meeker: Okay? Started an hour or two a day, and then he was doing more, and he was doing more in the middle of the night. And this is what parents need to realize. No devices in the room when, after a kid goes to bed, because they’ll sit up at two, three, four, five in the morning. And this kid just sort of slid into, um, a gaming addiction unbeknownst to his parents. They started to realize when he wanted to drop outta basketball, and then he let his girlfriend go, he withdrew from his friends because he was spending upwards of 12 hours a day gaming. Good, good kid. And he knew when he came to see me he had a problem. There was an addiction. He, it had power over him.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: Because no one saw what was happening. And this is the destructive behavior a teenage boy can just slide into if his parents aren’t really paying attention to what he’s doing at three in the morning. Got it? We gotta know that. And to know how to stop it and to know that they have the right, the duty to stop it early on.

Jim: Yeah. That’s good.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Um, secret number five, acknowledge that virtue is not just for girls.

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Okay. Let’s spend a little time in this space. How can parents and mentors help train a boy’s mind to be inclined toward virtue?

Dr. Meeker: Well, to talk to them about virtue, to talk to them about chivalry, to talk to them about courage and what courage looks like, that courage looks like being afraid you’re going to fail, but you step into it ever- anyway. You know, you’re scared of algebra, you’re gonna fall, you’re gonna take ca… Oh well. March in there and risk failing because you’re a risk-taker, you can risk to fail. So talk about, you know, virtues and spell them out, you know, um, as a parent, name them, you know, perseverance and tenacity and even the fruits of the spirit, start there, and say, “This is what… Do you aspire to be this way? Do you…” “Yes, I would like to.” “Well, how are we going to get you there?”

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: You know, it’s a we thing because by the time you’re 25, I would like these virtues that you have to be solid. I would like you to be a courageous 25-year-old man who’s not afraid to walk into a boardroom or to walk, you know, to your kids or whatever, “Is that the kind of person you’d like to be?” “Yes, Mom.” “Let’s talk about grooming you to get there. If you wanna get there, you cannot spend 12 hours a day on a video game. You cannot be having sex with a gazillion girls in college. You cannot be playing beer pong every night of the week in college. If you wanna be a successful, strong, courageous man.”

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: Which every boy will say he wants to be that. Well, you’re not gonna get there if you’re doing this at 18.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: And so this was, and, you know, I’m not passing judgment on parents or this boy or anything, like I said, he was great. It fell into him because our culture sucks him in like it sucks kids, boys into pornography. It comes to them.

John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guest today is Dr. Meg Meeker. And, uh, we’re covering just some of the content in her, uh, very excellent resource, Boys Should Be Boys: 7 Secrets to Raising Healthy Sons. And you’ll find that book and other resources to help you in your parenting journey at our website, and that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Meg, you write in the book that, uh, God makes sense to boys. I love that statement. I mean, I have poured my parenting time into my two boys-

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: … in that way. I believe they have a firm grip on that. They don’t always behave the way I want them to behave,-

Dr. Meeker: (laughs).

Jim: … but, I mean, generally they get this.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: It’s like, “Yeah, God does make sense to me.” So I think I can attest to that statement, but explain to me why you said that.

Dr. Meeker: Well, here’s what I see just having watched a generation of kids grow up, kids are born with a sense that there is another world. They’re spiritual people. They’re-

Jim: Something bigger.

Dr. Meeker: Something bigger. They’re open to it. They wanna hear about it. They wanna see it. They wanna talk about it. But I believe, and even Christian parents, is we talk our kids out of God the older they get.

Jim: Huh.

Dr. Meeker: Because we need, we feel we need to defend it all the time. And if kids see you constantly defending something, then they say, “Well, maybe it’s, it’s not real. Or maybe you think it’s not real.” Case in point, I have had a number of children, young children, under 10, under 10, describe angels to me. I’m not kidding you. I have the best job in the world. And I sit there and one girl recently, she’s about 11 describing how she’s having a hard time falling asleep at night. And I went through sleep hygiene and da-da-da-da-da. She said, “Well, I finally got better because I noticed when I would look at my door and it was dark in the room, an angel would stand in the doorway between my room and the hall.” And immediately her mother said, “Shh. What are talking about? Don’t do that.” I said, “No, please let her talk. I wanna know what she saw.”

Jim: (laughs) No kidding.

Dr. Meeker: (laughs) Yeah. So she describes it. Kids have, have described that to me. They don’t say that to me when they’re 18. When they’re five, they will talk to you about God and what He looks like. They will draw pictures of God. It’s natural to them.

Jim: Huh.

Dr. Meeker: The sense that God is real is natural. It feels good. They wanna pray. Ask a little five-year-old if they wanna pray. Oh, they’ll go on and on and on or they’ll let you go on and on and on. And also, as a physician, I had to find studies that, that showed that believing in God helped you get through school, it kept you away from sex, drugs, and alcohol, it helped your marriage be better. And so I thought, God is good for you. So even parents who don’t wanna believe in God perhaps will believe the research on God and how good He is for their kids. Your kid is likely to do better in school if he has a strong faith.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: Period. So if you don’t wanna believe me that God is real and that He loves you and your kids like mad, at least look to the research. But kids get it. We train kids out of a belief in God.

Jim: Boy, that’s sad, actually.

Dr. Meeker: It’s very sad.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: And Christian parents do that as well. And I’ve seen this, I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it, because either they get legalistic or they teach their kids to behave in a certain way when the kids aren’t ready, or they want their kids to evangelize in the ninth grade. And kids, you know, we make it too complicated for kids.

Jim: Oh, so true. Uh, you mentioned a moment ago just about teaching boys about the fruit of the Spirit.

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, and one of the things with the beatitudes, of course,-

Dr. Meeker: Oh.

Jim: … you know, we’ve read those with the boys over and over again. And I remember Trent not long ago, probably a year or two ago, said, “You know, I did a word study on that, the meek one.” Because he’s lifting weights. He’s a big guy. He is like 6’7″, he’s big.

Dr. Meeker: Big.

Jim: And he said, “You know, Dad, that meek statement, it’s not being weak.” He said, “Meek, it’s having the strength to get the job done, but restraining yourself to put it all in the order of God.” I was like, wow.

Dr. Meeker: Wow.

Jim: So it’s not like,-

Dr. Meeker: No.

Jim: … you know, just lay yourself down. It says I can take care of business, but I’m gonna choose God’s way of intervening and controlling this situation. That’s very masculine.

Dr. Meeker: It’s, it’s controlled power.

Jim: Yeah. You’ve got the power to sort this out.

Dr. Meeker: You have the power. You see the power. You appreciate it and embrace it, but you control it.

Jim: I appreciate that. I think that it doesn’t make sense the other way, actually, that,-

Dr. Meeker: No.

Jim: … you know, just be a doormat.

Dr. Meeker: No.

Jim: I mean, again, that connects with-

Dr. Meeker: If you ha-

Jim: … men and women.

Dr. Meeker: If you have no power, what is there to control?

Jim: Right.

Dr. Meeker: And see, that’s what we’re trying to take away from men. Yes, we want abuse to go away. We want cruelty of men towards women to go away. That’s not power, that’s mental illness. Okay. But when we talk about true good masculine power, we’re talking about inordinate strength that is well controlled. And that to me is the epitome of masculinity. Look at Jesus on the cross.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: He could have jumped down in a minute.

Jim: Let me ask as we’re winding into the end here, how does a, a father’s faith and a mother’s faith shape their son’s faith?

Dr. Meeker: Well, first of all, we know that boys are more likely to, uh, continue on in adult faith if their father had a faith when he was growing up.

Jim: Huh. That’s good.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah. Because they look up to the authority in their dad, and they believe if dad believed in God and taught me about Him, then God is really, really, really real. So two of the best things any good dad can do to a son, make sure you grow your son’s faith, take him to church, teach him about God, share your experiences and be present in his life. If you only do those two things, your kid’s not gonna go wrong.

John: Hmm.

Jim: That’s a, that’s a-

John: That’s assuring.

Jim: Yeah. That’s a, a promise.

Dr. Meeker: Yeah. Don’t worry about all the other stuff. Those two things, you’ve got it.

Jim: Yeah. Let’s end with number seven, which is to remember that the most important person in your son’s life is you as a mom or a dad.

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Let’s describe that, uh,-

Dr. Meeker: Sure.

Jim: … that influence. You know, I, I remember seeing a survey, Meg, a while back, but it said, this was of teenagers, that their parents, it was like 60 or 70% said their number one influence in their life was still their parents.

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Which most of us went, “Really?” It’s not their friend group, it’s not their social media group.

Dr. Meeker: No.

Jim: But the fact that they said it was their parents is a little bit jaw-dropping.

Dr. Meeker: You know, you think about your typical 30, 35-year-old person who’s struggling and goes into counseling, what do they start talking about first? Their relationship with their mom or their dad. It isn’t, “Well, I had a coach who was mean to me,” or, “My best friend when I was in seventh grade did this.” It’s all about that primal attachment to a mother and a father is so deep and so God-given that it shapes the identity of a kid because they need that parent. They don’t need a coach, they don’t need a teacher. I mean, in a different way. But it’s, it’s that attachment to the parent. It’s through a mother and father where the child gets their identity, their value, their sense that they’re loved. Um, you, how many 50, 60-year-old men do you know are still trying to prove their worth to their dad?

Jim: Huh. Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: “My dad would love it that I’ve made this amount of money. My dad…” So we know as adults, it’s our parents who really wounded us, but who also shaped the greatness in us, really.

John: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meeker: And so, but parents have a hard time believing that because we haven’t been trained to think that way. We’ve been trained to think that when teenagers are teenagers, it’s all about peers. So back off ’cause what teenagers really need is a good set of peers. Yeah, they need a good set of peers, but they need a good, strong parent. And sadly, we have trained fathers to buy into that lie, and that’s why so many have disappeared from their kids’ lives. I think that a lot of men who are in prison feel like throwaways. They feel-

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Meeker: … they’re throwaways.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: Nobody wanted them, nobody needed them. Even their kids didn’t need their dad. All their kids needed was them to show up and mom would take it from there. I-

Jim: And a truism is many of them didn’t have a dad.

Dr. Meeker: They didn’t have a dad. And any man who grew up, or woman who didn’t have a dad, they’ll just spill it. They will,-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: … they won’t be able to articulate how painful and why it was painful, they’ll just tell it to you. Um, when I interviewed a lot of women for my father-daughter book, women always had one of two responses, they either gushed about their dad or they broke down in tears.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: When it comes to your dad, there’s no middle ground.

Jim: Huh, interesting.

Dr. Meeker: No middle ground. With your mom, you know, I mean, yeah, you love her and you hate her and this. When it comes to your dad, it’s just different. You, um, if you had a great dad, you succeed. If you dad wasn’t there, you’re not sure if you can c- succeed.

Jim: Interesting.

Dr. Meeker: Very true for, for a boy. And also that’s where a, a man gets a sense of what masculinity is all about, it’s through his dad.

Jim: Yeah. That’s good. Uh, you recount a story about counseling a father who was having difficulty communicating with his son, that would, like every dad would put his hand up, “Oh, that must be me.” But they kept repeating kind of the same things, this dad did, that he was fathered-

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … like.

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, so we don’t fall far from the tree, basically.

Dr. Meeker: No.

Jim: And sometimes that’s hard because our dad was not a good father.

Dr. Meeker: Right.

Jim: And we repeat those mistakes. How did that story end?

Dr. Meeker: Well, it can end in many different ways. Um, ’cause I’ve worked with a lot of fathers who grew up without a dad, and dads come into parenting with a preload. “I never knew my dad. I feel pain of not having my dad. My dad was always abusive to me.” And we take that into parenting. And then if a dad is parenting a son, he begins to repeat that being abusive or just leaving his son or not communicating. Unless a dad recognizes that his behavior came because he was taught it from his childhood by his own dad, he can’t disrupt the behavior and change.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: If a dad was yelled at and he grows up and starts yelling at his son, he’ll never be able to stop yelling at his son unless he recognizes he learned it when he was a kid. And he’s gotta stop, because the patterns are so ingrained, we repeat what we know.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: We don’t do what we want, we repeat what we know.

John: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meeker: And so in a situation like da- that I’m not communicating to my son because I was never shown how to communicate.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: So let’s figure this out. So, “Son, I’m not communicating with you well because I didn’t ever learn how to do it. So let’s start fresh. What do you… How do you need me to communicate with you? Help me out here.” Or, “Son, I’m so sorry I’m yelling at you. I don’t know any different. How… I’m gonna really work hard in this. Can you help me stop yelling at you?” You say that to a kid, you’ve won him over.

John: Hmm.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: You say to your seven, 10-year-old boy, “Son, I am not treating you well. I wanna change. Hold me accountable, but help me along the way, ’cause I don’t really know what you need.” You’re in. I mean, that’s all kids want.

Jim: Meg, for both the mom and the dad, one of the, you know, great guilts that we carry can be that our boys aren’t performing. You know, they’re just not hitting the standard. They’re not hitting the mark. And you could pick the age, doesn’t matter, whether they’re teens or 20s. Speak to the idea of grace. You know, the longer I live, the more the analogy of God’s character toward us is like a father.

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I mean, He is our Creator, He is our Abba Father, the scripture says, to refer to Him as Daddy.

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I mean, that’s pretty amazing.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But to bring that down to earth, so to speak, how do we do that with our own children?

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: Particularly our boys, as we’re talking about boys today, but how do we emulate the grace of God toward that prodigal child?

Dr. Meeker: Yeah. I think it’s a great question. I learned this through a friend actually, um, who had a son who got a girl pregnant at 16. And she was beside herself. Christian mom. I think she even, you know, did a lot of work at a church. V- very, very bright woman. And she was beside herself. “I failed, I failed. This kid’s been brought up in the church. He loves Christ. What has happened?” And she said she’s walking along the beach and she was quiet and all of a sudden, she didn’t hear a voice, but she heard God sort of speak to her inner spirit, “Now, wait a minute, I’m the perfect father, and look at my kids.”

Jim: Hmm.

Dr. Meeker: And so you can be a perfect parent and you can have a 16-year-old who’s going off the rails.

Jim: Right.

Dr. Meeker: Because God is a perfect parent. And, but, but that’s the free will. But again, even if he’s going off at the rails at 16, you’ve still got nine years (laughs) left to get him to 25. It’s not always about you. You know, God’s in there too and kids have free will and they have different personalities. They have very different… And we know that. It’s, there’s a whole lot of nature in there too. And, you know, we do the best we can and that’s good enough.

Jim: And I, I think at the end here, Meg, you and I both have heard this over and over again, the things that we talk about here at Focus on the Family, it’s not a formula.

Dr. Meeker: Mm-mm.

Jim: These are prescriptive suggestions, recommendations. If you do these things, there is a higher potential-

Dr. Meeker: Yeah.

Jim: … of success, not a guarantee.

Dr. Meeker: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And so, because people have free will, your children have free will.

Dr. Meeker: Yep.

Jim: We have free will before the Lord. So in that context, we can only do the right things and then trust God-

Dr. Meeker: Absolutely.

Jim: … that that will sink in at some point.

Dr. Meeker: Absolutely. Yeah.

Jim: And not to over own it.

Dr. Meeker: No, no, don’t over own it. I have another friend who adopted a very, very high need, uh, daughter, and the daughter died of a drug overdose at 22.

Jim: Mm.

Dr. Meeker: And she, “I failed. I failed” I said, “Wait a minute. If you hadn’t adopted her when she was six, she probably would’ve died at 14. And she knew the Lord when she died at 22. You succeeded.”

Jim: Yeah. Heartbreaking.

John: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meeker: It’s heartbreaking. But we are here to steward these kids. I would also encourage parents, keep it simple.

Jim: (laughs) I like that.

Dr. Meeker: Give them enough attention. Give them some affection. Affirm them before God. You know, give them a faith. And it’s gonna be okay, because what your kids want is your attention and your love and your time, and they want you to listen to them.

Jim: Yeah. I like that.

Dr. Meeker: It’s easy. It-

Jim: Parenting isn’t algebra.

Dr. Meeker: No. You don’t have to have a PhD.

Jim: (laughs) It’s basic a- addition and subtraction.

Dr. Meeker: But, but we’re, we, we think it’s algebra because there’s so much out there on the internet, there’s so much pop psychology and so much parenting advice that’s so overcomplicated, and a lot of it’s just bad anyway. But, you know, but just really keep it simple and trust your instincts because God will show you if you really, you know, have some humility and, you know, it’s really not rocket science. (laughs)

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Meeker: But it feels like it because we just wanna get it right.

Jim: Yeah. We wanna be perfect, and that’s tough.

Dr. Meeker: And you can, you’ve got the wiring. Every dad and mother have all the wiring they need. They just need someone to encourage them to keep using it and just keep on going.

Jim: So good. Dr. Meg Meeker, this has been great. Your book, uh, Boys Should Be Boys: 7 Secrets to Raising Healthy Sons, I so appreciate the content. Thank you for writing it, number one.

Dr. Meeker: Well, thank you. I-

Jim: (laughs) And thanks for being here, number two.

Dr. Meeker: You bet.

Jim: (laughs).

Dr. Meeker: I, it’s always a pleasure and thank you for what you do as well.

Jim: It’s so good. And we wanna get this into your hands as a parent, as a grandparent to give to your adult children. Uh, this is wonderful, uh, guidelines, and again, prescriptions on how to help build your sons into becoming men. And, you know, seven things, I think you can grab those and run with them.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And if you can support the ministry monthly, that’s great. A one-time gift is good. If you can do either, we’ll send you a copy of Meg’s book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry and helping other families to be stronger in Christ.

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Support this show and, uh, the general ministry of Focus on the Family when you call today and make a generous donation. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. You can also donate and request Meg’s book, Boys Should Be Boys, when you stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And coming up tomorrow, a powerful story of a former abortion doctor who became pro-life.

Dr. Patti Giebink: But it became so clear to me that, that God is a God of life. That’s His character, that’s His heart. There should be no question.

John: On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.