Preview:
Trisha Davis: And I really convinced myself that you can just be a little bitter. That bitterness has a tendency to always grow. It’s like a cancer that grows. And it doesn’t just affect your marriage relationship, it affected all of my relationships. And I think in that moment, I was just desperate for change, and I didn’t know how to receive it. I was willing to pray the prayer, I wasn’t willing to live it out.
End of Preview
John Fuller: Mm-hmm. That’s Trisha Davis, uh, describing a very troubling point in her marriage. And a lot of couples can get stuck in unhealthy beliefs and behaviors. And, uh, we’re gonna explore that today, what those challenges look like, and how you can have hope for your marriage. Welcome to another episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, i- it sounds so simple, but it is this kind of rut analogy. You know, you get into a rut, that’s what we talk about, and it’s hard to get out. And we keep doing the same behaviors over and over-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … thinking we’ll get a different outcome, but we don’t. And, uh, today’s program is gonna be one of those things that’s like a aha moment-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … to say, you can get outta that rut, but you have to make decisions. You have to change things. You have to move in the direction the Lord wants you to move. I’m looking forward to it. If your, uh, marriage is in a spot where you feel stuck in that rut, uh, this program’s gonna be for you. And, uh, it’s, it’s a wild ride, but we’re so grateful for our guests.
John: Yes, we have Justin and Trisha Davis here. Um, their story is pretty incredible. They’re pastors. They’re the founders of RefineUS Ministries, which is all about helping people build or rebuild healthy, authentic relationships. And together they’ve written a book, uh, that forms the foundation for our conversation today. One Choice Away from Change: Break the Cycles That Hurt Your Relationships and Hold You Back. And you can learn more about this book and our guests at our website, and that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Justin and Trisha, welcome back to Focus. It’s been a few years.
Trisha: It has, yeah.
Jim: I think 2013-
Justin Davis: Yeah.
Jim: … so it’s-
Justin: Thank you for having us back.
Jim: Great to have you back. I mean, your story is a phenomenal story, both, in both directions. Both in its darkness, but then in your growth in the Lord and what you’re able to share with others, other struggling couples. So I’m looking forward to it ’cause I know the story and it’s a good one. Let me start there. When you got married, I’m sure you thought like Jean and I, maybe you and Dena too, John. This is awesome.
John: (laughs)
Jim: This is gonna be wonderful. This is a, this is so poetic, this is great. And then it kind of starts to happen, right? Like, year two, year three. But did you guys have that kind of attitude that you were meant for each other?
Justin: Well, our relationship started with love at first sight. Um, I was in love with Trish. She was not in love with me.
Trisha: (laughing)
Justin: And so that was, that was the genesis of our relationship, of really me trying to convince her that she should go out with me. Um, but that wasn’t necessarily her viewpoint at the time. But we met in Bible college in 1993-
John: Mm-hmm.
Justin: … and just began to spend a lot of time together. And-
Jim: Was the Bible written back then?
Trisha: I don’t know.
Jim: (laughing) 1993.
Trisha: I don’t know.
Jim: I’m kidding.
Trisha: (laughs)
Justin: The Bible-
Jim: That’s…
Justin: … app wasn’t. (laughing)
Jim: That, that’s-
John: Right.
Jim: … true. Okay. Fair enough. But that, that’s great. That is how it starts, right? Romance starts that way and, you know, you get, you see each other, and then you begin to maybe fall in love over time. When did you catch up to Justin?
Trisha: (laughing)
Jim: And you were going, nah, I’m not interested?
Trisha: You know, when I landed in Bible college, I grew up inner city in Joliet, Illinois. Um, you know, my dad didn’t make it past the eighth grade-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: … and my mom got pregnant her senior year of high school. So I wasn’t college-bound at all.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: So when I got to college and then Bible college, it was like drinking out of a fire hose, where Justin, I think, he had more familiarity with Christian culture in that context. And so I was, I was pretty prickly in a sense of very guarded, and Justin was the man on campus. I mean, people called him JD, and I called him Justin.
Jim: (laughing)
Trisha: And so that it wasn’t just-
Jim: Didn’t catch on with you.
Trisha: It did. Yeah. It, it wasn’t like, um, just towards Justin, I think I was just kind of overwhelmed. But we did, we became good friends. He was a basketball player and I was a, a cheerleader. And we were at a smaller college, so we all drove on the same, you know, broken-down bus together.
Justin: (laughs)
Trisha: And we became really good friends. And when we fell in love, we had this idea that… This formula that wasn’t taught to us, I think it was caught. That if we love each other and love God, and then we were going into full-time ministry. As long as we did those things, our marriage, of course, would just go up into the right. It was a deep belief that that’s what a successful marriage was built on.
Jim: And I think that, that’s most people’s feelings, right?
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Especially as Christians, we tend to… I think we’re right there with you. And then things start to happen, cracks start to develop. Um, who was the first to go, okay, there’s some cracks in here? The foundation isn’t as solid. I, I think it was you, Trisha.
Trisha: Yeah. And, and not really even having that framework to even say that.
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: I just knew something was not right. And part of it was circumstantial. We were married for four months when we found out we were expecting our first-
John: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: … child.
Jim: Okay. That was-
Trisha: So-
Jim: … fast, yeah.
Trisha: … Justin graduates from college, we go to our first student ministry. And so for me personally, in one year, I went from college life to married life to mom life. And there wasn’t a lot of time to recognize what we were doing wrong until things went wrong. And so, just the tension of just the season of life we were in, we were just always kind of at each other.
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: And then we would go to church and pull ourselves out by the bootstraps and just figure out how to fall in love again. It was kind of that was the cycle.
Jim: Yeah. What would you say were two or three of those things that caught your attention though that, okay, we’re not as up and to the right as healthy as we thought we were? Just for those listening.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: Maybe they’ve been married three years and they’re going, “Ah, that sounds like us.”
Trisha: I thought I could change him. And when I figured, you know, a couple of years into marriage, I couldn’t change him, I, I took the things that he was doing personal, like, they were against me, and then he became my enemy.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: And so, rather, you know, taking it to God in prayer, praying together, I had these unspoken expectations that Justin should fix the issues that I was having. And when he wasn’t fixing them or wasn’t doing ’em the way that he, I wanted him to, the tension was we were always, like, missing each other. Our motives were wrong.
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: And so I deeply always loved Justin, but my motives for wanting him to connect with me weren’t always healthy, and I just didn’t know it.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah. So you get married, you have a child right away. You’re developing, I think, church ministry.
Justin: Yeah.
Jim: You’ve graduated.
Justin: Yeah.
Jim: You’re 10 years now into your marriage, Justin, you’re thinking, “Yeah, I don’t know that I want to keep doing this.” Describe where your head was at and what was happening for you.
Justin: Yeah. I think when we realized that we couldn’t change each other, we moved to this place of trying to build a relationship on milestones and achievements. So if we could just, you know, make more money. If I could just, you know, go into a larger student ministry. We started using things of accomplishment and achievement as thinking that that was gonna bring us closer together. And so seven years into marriage, we decided to plant a church for people who didn’t go to church. We’d never done this before. I was 28, Trish was 26. Uh, we found out a week before we moved to plant the church that she was pregnant with our third child.
John: Mm-hmm.
Justin: And we had just developed this culture of achievement that we… Okay, yeah, our marriage isn’t necessarily always romantic, and it isn’t always the best or what we thought it was going to be, but we were doing great things for God.
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Justin: And if we continue to produce for God, that’s going to give us the marriage ultimately that, that we want. And so we, we start this church with 12 people, and three years into this church plant and 10 years into marriage, um, we began to really drift apart. And the church is growing like crazy, but internally, I know that things are not right. In my relationship with God and in my relationship with Trish. And it wasn’t necessarily these big things. It was these small indiscretions of taking one another for granted. It was not having new arguments. It was the same argument over and over and over again. And it was also, as Trish mentioned, those unspoken expectations that become unmet expectations.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Justin: And so you don’t start your next argument at a level two, you start at a level six because nothing was resolved from the previous argument.
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Justin: And those unmet expectations began to really just erode the intimacy that-
Jim: Yeah.
Justin: … we were experiencing in our relationship to the point that our, our marriage crumbled and imploded.
Jim: Right. And in that context, ground zero, I think most couples would agree that’s what you would call it, you ended up sharing something with Trish that changed your lives, really.
Justin: Yeah, yeah.
Jim: What happened?
Justin: I came home from church on a Sunday afternoon and, and Trish was, uh, laying down for an afternoon nap, and I said, “Hey, we need to have a conversation.” And she said, “Okay, a- about what?” And I said, “About us.” And she said, “Well, what about us?” And I said, “I’m done.” And she said, “You’re done with what?” And I said, “I’m done with you. Like, I’m out. I don’t wanna-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Justin: … be married anymore. I don’t wanna be in ministry anymore. I’m not in love with you anymore. I’m having an affair. It’s with your best friend, and I wanna be with her.”
John: Mm-hmm.
Justin: And I wish… You know, almost 20 years later, I wish it was a confession of remorse and I wish it was a confession of repentance. It was just really a confession of resignation.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Trish, where, where were you at? I mean, hearing that is devastating, obviously. How did you process that? And what, what was your response?
Trisha: Looking back on it, I was not trauma-informed. I didn’t have the-
Jim: Right.
Trisha: … language to understand how I kinda moved through that experience. But a couple of days before, I, I didn’t know anything was happening, but I think I kind of did.
Jim: Oh.
Trisha: And I remember going… Um, you know, we were church planners, so we weren’t like rolling in the dough. And I remember going to this, like, fancy store and buying, like, an outfit to make myself… I was leading worship the next morning. And, that’s not my personality at all, but when I walked into church, people were like, “You look so beautiful.” And the one person I was looking to say that to was Justin-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: … and he didn’t. And I remember, like, leading worship that morning and just going home, n- not just exhausting because we were, you know, setting up and tearing down, but it was like that day the Lord was preparing me something, something was about to break.
Jim: Even, even though… I mean, it wasn’t a hundred percent.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: It’s like, you didn’t know for sure, but you-
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: … feel, like, a-
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: … preparation was occurring. That’s amazing.
Trisha: It’s like watching the movie, and you’re like, “Girl run. Why are you not running?”
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: And they know they should be running, but they’re not running. You know, it’s like, it’s like one of those experiences of, like… Looking back on it, I think the Lord was preparing me. But nothing prepares you for that moment. And the shock of it was, you know, rock bottom, where in that one confession, I, I lost everything. My, me and my boys, they were like nine, seven and, and two. We never went back to the church. Like, our life literally ended with one confession, and we ended up losing our home. We lost our community, and the only thing left was my faith.
Jim: Yeah. I, you know, that, that devastation occurs far too often. And I’m sure people that are watching on YouTube or listening-
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … have gone through something like that.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: And it’s that moment, it’s crushing-
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … ’cause it changes everything. You say in the book, though, it was more of the symptom. You know, it’s hard to think of that. That feels like the stick of dynamite going off. It’s the cause of the explosion, but you described it more like this was the symptom of what was occurring. What, what was underneath the symptom in that regard?
Trisha: How much time do you have? (laughing)
Jim: Yeah. Okay. That’s fair. Call us, (laughing) and you can talk directly with Justin and Trisha.
Trisha: In the immediacy of that moment, it was survival. It was, um, and I, I shared this story when, you know, when we were on Focus on the Family, you know, the first time. I went back to that college formula that if I just love God and love Justin, we can fix this. And so I just need Justin to come home. And he didn’t wanna come home. He wasn’t broken. And so I remember my mom handing me the phone, and it was a counselor from Focus on the Family.
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: And that guy, I’m sure he quit after talking to me because I was-
Jim: Were you the reason he left?
Justin: (laughs)
Trisha: It was probably the reason I left. And I just told him all the things that I was, you know, lamenting, and I just needed him to come home. And he said, “If you really love Justin, you’ll let him go.” And I wish I could say I responded so kindly, but I didn’t. And I told him he was a really bad counselor and (laughs) he should not be… You know, I was like, “That is the worst advice ever.” It was counterintuitive.
Jim: Sure.
Trisha: Because if God is love and I’m supposed to love my husband, why wouldn’t I fight for him? But he was showing me a choice that needed to be made that I never understood. I didn’t understand the why behind it. I said, “If I let Justin go, he’s going to choose her.” And he just responded and said, “He already has.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: “Until you let him go and allow God to do the work that only He can, you will continually be his scapegoat for all of his issues.” And that moment changed my life.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: That was the moment where faith went into action, that I had to make a decision to take steps to remove him from our house and out of our whole entire story. That day was the hardest day because I remember packing his things up. It was worse than death because he was alive, he just didn’t wanna be with me.
Jim: Right. And, you know, we set this program up today talking about those ruts. That’s what that sounds like. This was a moment when you did it differently-
Trisha: Yes.
Jim: … and got out of that rut. And so that cycle was not gonna continue in that way. It may have created other difficulties, but that…
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It was gonna be a, a new route.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: Justin, you almost sound so calculating and, you know, kind of cold.
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, this is done emotionally. You’re all sewn up, you’re not, you’re not connecting there the pain you’re causing. I mean, how were you processing this blunt statement?
Justin: Yeah. I think anytime you make a decision that you’re going to intentionally go against God’s plan and God’s best and you’re going to bring harm and hurt to those that love you the most, you have to almost emotionally cut yourself off from the carnage that you’re causing. And so it was a very dark time in my life, spiritually. It was, it was a very intentional act that I had made, and I didn’t know what was on the other side. I didn’t think that healing could be on the other side of that. And so I only knew what I knew and how broken I was, and I didn’t want to leave any room for doubt. And looking back on it now, I can see that anytime you try to go against God’s best, there’s so many consequences that you don’t think through. And there’s so many ramifications that if you knew what was on the other side of that decision, I could have confessed a lot earlier than I’d had. And there would’ve been consequences, but they would’ve been a lot easier to restore. And so now the work ahead of us was very deep and very profound.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John: Mm-hmm. We’re hearing very candidly from Justin and Trisha Davis today on Focus on the Family. And, uh, we’ve got their book, which captures this story and so much more. It’s called One Choice Away from Change: Break the Cycles That Hurt Your Relationships and Hold You Back. And, uh, you can get a copy of this book from us here at the ministry. We’ve got the link at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Let me ask both of you this, um, because you’re speaking to something that’s, my impression is, very common.
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: We tend to, even as Christian couples, to think we’re good.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: It’s my spouse who’s not good.
Justin: (laughs)
Jim: And if they could just get fixed. You even use those words. If you could get fixed then we would be okay. What makes it so difficult in that recognition? And Justin, you had to go through that.
Justin: Yeah.
Jim: Because you were, you were the cop writing the ticket. You haven’t met my needs, Trisha. I’ve made a decision. It’s cold and calculating, but I’m finding love over here with your best friend, and I’ve made the decision. I’d like to divorce you and be with her. I mean, it’s kind of the summary-
Justin: Right.
Jim: … of what you were-
Justin: Right.
Jim: … saying.
Justin: Yeah.
Jim: So it sounds like in my ear that you’re saying, I’m good, you’re not.
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: How do you then go to, Lord, look in my heart and show me-
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … where I am not good? ‘Cause that takes humility.
Justin: Yes.
Jim: And in that moment, we’re probably not very humble as spouses that think we’re right.
Justin: (laughs) Well, I think for many of us, what we tend to equate success in marriage is pain avoidance. And so we look at the absence of conflict as the presence of intimacy, rather than allowing conflict to present and prepare us to experience intimacy.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Justin: And so, as I was evaluating my relationship with Trish, because we had so much conflict and we felt like we were always missing each other. And it felt like all she wanted to do was change me, and all I wanted to do was change her. I didn’t recognize that there was an opportunity there to not just experience behavior modification by checking a list off of things that are gonna make Trisha happy, but really experience heart transformation by allowing God to transform me from the inside out. And so as we began to go through the restoration process, I didn’t want just God to fix our issues. And I didn’t want a 2.0 version of our marriage; I wanted a brand new relationship. And in order for that to happen… God promises resurrection, and He promises new beginnings, but the problem with resurrection is something has to die. And that had to be my pride. It had to be my agenda. It had to be my sinful choices. And honestly, it had to be the first 10 years of marriage that had to die so that God could resurrect something different. And that doesn’t come without pain, but this time it was going to be redemptive pain and not the destructive pain of sin.
Jim: That cycle of shame that you’ve described you, and you experienced obviously in the aftermath of your affair. Uh, you and Trish eventually, after doing separate counseling, went to counseling together. How long did it take to get to that counselor? And what was that first counseling session like?
Trisha: Ooh.
Jim: (laughing) Was it days or weeks, or months?
Trisha: We hadn’t spoken for 10 days. And part of that, you know, all these years later… A, a way that I put it is, you know, boundary. We have some buzzwords in our world, and, and boundary is kind of a, a, a buzzword. But I believe that boundaries are the most lavish act of love that you can put in place in a relationship. Because you’re saying, I, I care enough about how this, um, relationship mends that I’m gonna put the work in to create boundaries. And so the first 10 days weren’t to punish Justin. I knew I could not find healing in a way that I needed to, to make the right choices without carrying the weight of his. And so it wasn’t right away, it was… You know, I tell people who are in, in crisis in their marriage, we kind of just want to know the end, and then it’s fine. Once we can get to the end, we’re good. But in healing, we’re waiting for the pieces of the puzzle. And the pieces of my puzzle to our restoration is Justin wasn’t broken the first, you know, couple of days, and that’s what I was operating with. So there was no room to go to counseling because he didn’t want to.
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: So that took time and really leaning into the Holy Spirit of just knowing, like, when, when is this a boundary, and when is this self-protection out of not wanting to get hurt.
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: And so it, it was very organic. And the first one was, I think, we cried through the whole thing. Um, but 30 days into counseling, we got to this place where it was, like, I was starting to trust Justin again and believing, you know, who God says He is in His Word, that He creates us new. And then the counselor said, “Justin, if you’ve left anything out, now’s the time to share.” And he knew he had left some things out.
John: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: And so he had shared a couple of things, and I, I left that counseling, you know, 30 days in, and instead I was filing for divorce-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: … because he was incapable of telling the truth.
Jim: Yeah. I mean, that’s a devastating moment.
Justin: Yeah.
Jim: But that was probably where you were making that decision, okay, this is too much.
Justin: Yeah.
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It’s over. And it dealt with pornography, addiction, and some other things-
Justin: Yeah.
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … that you had never shared.
Justin: Yeah. I was sexually abused when I was a kid and never told anyone about it. I had a pornography addiction that, um, I was d- in denial of. Um, and after I finally confessed that to Trish and the counselor, um, the counselor was equally as disappointed in… Not equally, but he was disappointed in me as well for being untruthful those first 30 days. But it became a confession that was not about my marriage anymore. I really wanted to break cycles of addiction and break cycles of brokenness in my own life that obviously now affect my marriage and, and are benef- you know, they benefit my marriage. But this really became about me and my relationship with God. How was I gonna be a person of truth? And how was I going to finally find freedom from these things that I’d been carrying? You know, the sexual abuse happened when I was five years old, and I’d carried that shame. You know, when you’re a victim of abuse, the shame that you carry, I don’t think anyone can quantify for you not doing anything wrong.
Jim: Yeah.
Justin: But it begins to affect the choices that you make and how you see yourself and, and how you see God. And so it was finally, that was the breakthrough. Obviously, it was a painful breakthrough, but Trisha eventually came to this place where she said, “Now we can start over. Now we can be getting it ’cause I finally know the real you.”
Jim: And I need to tie that in a bow ’cause you’re leaving the counseling session saying it’s over.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: What made you turn the corner, make the U-turn from that emotionally to-
Trisha: Well…
Jim: … come back?
Trisha: In the context of that counseling session that I left, he had shared details about the affair. And I, m- my mentor, uh, Joan, I, I called her and said, “You know, let him know I’m filing for divorce.” And she called Justin and said, “This is your moment. She’s filing, so you need to fight for her.” And this was… Honestly, this was the significant shift of me where I started operating out of not my will, but God your will be done. Which was really hard because I felt like God had gotten a good deal with me. I was faithful in my marriage. I was a church planner, which is like next to serving in the nursery, like-
Jim: (laughs)
Trisha: … is a whole other special, you know, you know-
Jim: You were doing-
Trisha: … work.
Jim: … all the right things.
Trisha: Yes.
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: And so now I was going to counseling, doing the right thing, and this is where I was at. But that was when I realized my theology of being a rule follower is not the same as being a Christ follower.
Jim: Wooh.
Trisha: And-
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: … if it was about rule following, we wouldn’t need Christ on the cross.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: And so it was this reminder that the ground is level at the foot of the cross. And while I and Justin were still sinners, Christ died for us. He still chose me. So I remember praying, “Okay, Holy Spirit, help me understand how to choose my marriage. Not choose Justin, but how do I choose my marriage? What’s the next step?” And I just felt like so clearly the Holy Spirit said, “One more time.” And if you wanna know if I’m from South Side Chicago, I was like, “I don’t know about what my…” You know, (laughing) like, all of these things are coming out of me in my prayer time. That’s what I love about Jesus. Like, we don’t have to be vetted, He, He can take all of our ugly, and He’s the one who makes it beautiful. And I was so ugly with Him that day, but I said yes. And that following Monday, Justin came in and that’s when he shared the abuse and shared… And there had been this ache. You know, the Bible tells us in, um, Romans, I believe, uh, 8:26 or 28, somewhere in there that “we don’t know what to pray, that the Holy Spirit goes before us with groans. There are no words.” And I felt this groan. There was something always off in our marriage, and when Justin confessed everything, that had gone.
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: We had finally hit rock bottom, but rock bottom was still solid surface to stand because we were standing on truth.
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: And so I said to him, “Now we, now we can start over.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: Because you can’t have a relationship without trust, and trust is built on truth. So even when it’s awful, ugly truth, it doesn’t allow Satan to then whisper that very simple statement that gets us in trouble from the very beginning of a very, our very first marriage relationship with Adam and Eve of did God really say. And I could have did God really say myself right out of this marriage.
Jim: Sure.
Trisha: But that’s what changed for me.
Jim: Yeah. I mean, this is powerful, and we’re leaving people right at the moment where they’re going, wow, this is describing a part of my relationship, or we went through that, or I wonder if we’re going to go through that. And I just wanna make sure that, you know, to call us here at Focus on the Family. We have caring Christian counselors-
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … that you experienced-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … Trisha.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: And, uh, you know, they’ll do their best to talk with you, pray with you, give you additional resources, et cetera. Uh, but get in touch with us. You can start by getting the book, which is a good start, One Choice Away From Change, if you’re feeling like you’re in that place. If you can make a gift of any amount, we’ll send it to you as our way of saying thank you. If you can’t afford it, just get a hold of us, we’ll send it to you, and trust others will cover the cost of this.
John: And I’ll also mention Hope Restored, which is our marriage intensives for couples that are on the brink of divorce or struggling mightily to break the cycle. Uh, learn more about Hope Restored, uh, about our counseling team and about this book, One Choice Away From Change, at our website, or, uh, give us a call. The link is at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or, uh, give us a call, 800 the letter A and the word FAMILY.
Jim: Justin and Trisha, this is so good. I mean, we are right in the middle, and so we want folks to come back and join us next time if you guys will. (laughs)
Justin: Absolutely.
Jim: And, uh, kind of tell the rest of the story.
John: Mm-hmm. And on behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Join us again next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two
John Fuller: Justin and Trisha Davis are back with us on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and last time, Justin, um, stated how he really wanted to break some bad habits that developed in their marriage over the years.
Justin Davis: I didn’t want just God to fix our issues, and I didn’t want a 2.0 version of our marriage. I wanted a brand-new relationship. And in order for that to happen, God promises resurrection and He promises new beginnings, but the problem with resurrection is something has to die.
John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, you’re right. We spoke to this great couple yesterday, and if you missed it last time, um, go to the website or get the smartphone app-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and do what you need to do because there was so much good content in there which may be describing in some way the marriage that you’re in, and that’s why we do this, is to help you recognize where you’re at, and if you need help to be able to get that help and to have a, a marriage that really is thriving in Christ. That’s our whole goal. And from time to time, Jean and I struggle too. I’m sure you and Dena do.
John: We have.
Jim: So, I mean, (laughs) it’s just part of life. And, uh, you know, being able to see those things and then work toward a better outcome is what we want to talk about today. Our guests, Justin and Trisha, last time talked about coming to the end of their senses in their marriage, and Justin had had an affair. He was a pastor of a church. Both of them were pastoring this church. And, uh, it was over. It looked like it was over. But God began to talk to Trish’s heart, to Justin’s heart, and over time through counseling and good Godly advice, and a change of heart, they were able to find a way through it, which is remarkable in and of itself.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: We’re gonna pick up where we landed last time and begin to talk about guilt and shame and some of the other things they had to deal with.
John: Their story is captured in the book One Choice Away from Change: Break the Cycles That Hurt Your Relationships and Hold You Back. You can learn more about this and the ministry that, uh, they founded called RefineUs Ministries. Uh, we’ll have the links at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Justin and Trisha, welcome back.
Justin: Thanks for having us again.
Jim: Yeah. It’s good. You know, I’m sitting here thinking. I’m… I referenced you. You know? I said great couple.
Trisha: (laughs)
Jim: Years ago, you would never have thought that. (laughs) Think of that though. Think of King David. I mean, he had some bad stuff happen, right? He made bad choices, what we’re talking about.
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And yet, the Lord healed him and healed you, and that’s the great hope we have here. You’re like a modern day example of what God can truly do in a marriage, and you guys were utterly broken.
Justin: Yeah.
Jim: You’d had an affair. You had all the right responses of being hurt, and then God began to heal your hearts.
Justin: Hm.
Jim: And again, we talked about that, and there were some great truths in that. One thing I didn’t get to last time that I really wanted to, so we’ll kick off here, was this distinction between guilt and shame. And you, Justin, I mean, you had issues with pornography addiction. You were sexually abused as a child. Um, it had to feel overwhelmingly-
Justin: Yeah.
Jim: … like shame. So, let’s start with you and then-
Justin: Yeah. Absolutely.
Jim: … we’ll have Trisha fill in.
Justin: When Trisha and I were going through the restoration process, part of that was we moved to a different town. Obviously, I got out of ministry, started working in the corporate world, and we really just started our life all over. And we were still going to counseling consistently, but I just could not shake the shame. It just kind of followed me around like this dark cloud. And I’ll never forget being in our kitchen probably six or seven months after we moved and kind of started over, and we were in a really good place. And Trish just said to me, she said, “Justin, God has forgiven you, I’ve forgiven you. You have got to forgive yourself or all of this work we’re doing, if you can’t overcome this shame, then it’s, it’s going to become a repeated cycle.” And I began to really understand that shame and conviction are two different things. Shame says not just what you did is wrong, but you are wrong for what you did. You are never gonna change. You’re always gonna be the same person. You’re never going to be able to overcome this. Conviction and guilt are a gift from the Holy Spirit because conviction and guilt says this is wrong.
Jim: Yeah. You are guilty of doing this.
Justin: God, God has something better in mind for you-
Jim: Yeah.
Justin: … and you have not chosen it. And so, shame is this opportunity to stay in the sin that we committed even though we’ve been forgiven for it, where guilt is the opportunity to confess the sin that we’ve committed so we can be forgiven.
Jim: You know, Trisha, again, another question from last time, and for those that are just picking up the conversation, I mean, you’re hearing all this. You’re hearing about his porn addiction. You’re hearing about s- his sexual abuse as a child, which had to open and crack your heart open a bit. But he also had an affair with your best friend.
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: There are wives going, “Are you crazy, Trisha?”
Justin: (laughs)
Trisha Davis: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, really.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: You probably had friends that were saying that, “Aren’t you done?”
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: How could you go back? Because it’s a window into them. If this happened to them, they’re expressing what they would do, the attitude they would have, I would think, and, you know, passing judgment on what you should do. You shouldn’t. How could you stay in that marriage? How could you do that?
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: How did you manage those conversations and those even maybe moments of self-doubt through the counseling process? Like, am I really doing the right thing? When you said, “God forgives you and I forgive you,” you really meant that?
Trisha: Yes. But forgiveness is free, trust is earned. So, those are two totally different conversations. And we understand forgiveness almost as the finish line, where forgiveness is at the starting line. Forgiveness is really about us because you can offer forgiveness regardless of how the person receives it. And what I’ve, what I was learning them that is true all these years later is that forgiveness doesn’t excuse the person’s behavior. It prevents their behavior from destroying your heart. And so, it opens you to the possibilities of redemption, but trust is earned, and trust is built with truth. And so, the people that were struggling, all these years later, I’m able to see exactly what you said. It’s, it’s a mirror to either their understanding or lack of understanding or their own pain. And when you have that experience of breakthrough, it does one or two things to the people around you. It either inspires them, that breakthrough is true for them, or it provides a mirror for where they feel stuck.
Jim: Hm.
Trisha: And so, it’s learning how to hold space for people that I couldn’t change Justin all those years ago, and I certainly can’t change my friends’ responses. I always think of Job. O- Of all of the Bible, next to like Leviticus, Job just frustrates me when I read the Bible because I’m like, “Y’all aren’t even going through this stuff and y- you’ve got feels and thoughts that you’re, like, pouring on him.” And, and it’s like everybody’s in process.
So, part of that is I had to learn who were the right people to put around me-
Jim: Yes.
Trisha: … and the people needed… I needed were those that were for us, that were for, uh, God, that were for the healing journey, even when they didn’t understand.
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: But then also had the authority to say, “Uh, I’m not sure that that’s a healthy choice right now.”
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: And it, it was messy. It wasn’t clear, you know, every day, but because I allowed those voices to speak into me, it helped keep me on the right path.
Jim: Yeah. Both of you had, um… Obviously, growing up, you had parents. Um, I want to touch into that because that was an aha, and let’s start with you, Trish.
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Your parents seemingly were really healthy and moving along and seemed like bedrock kind of people. What happened, and how did you process what you saw as a younger woman, and then what happened with your parents’ marriage, and how did that impact you?
Trisha: I always joke with my counselor. I’m like, “Am I… Is there something in me that God was like, when He was shaping me, He was like, I’m just gonna give her rose-colored glasses,” and it’s the way that I remember my childhood is this very strong narrative that my parents didn’t know Jesus, you know, when they were, when they met. They went through horrible tragedy. I mean, my mom lost her parents, her dad in eighth grade and then her mom two years later-
Jim: Hm.
Trisha: … her sophomore year. So, my parents were like the breakthrough couple, and they, they did, you know, drugs, they smoked marijuana when I was little, and I had no… It was just… They lived a party life. They were babies having babies, and then they found Jesus. And in my mind when they found Jesus, everything changed, and it did change, but not to the level that I assumed it did.
Jim: Hm.
Trisha: And so, we were a year into our marriage when my dad came out that he was a closet alcoholic and had been unfaithful to my mom. And it, it destroyed me. And it shaped my… It almost put, like, another exclamation point on I’m n- (laughs) my motto was, “I’m going to not be that,” rather than, “I’m going to be healthy. I’m going to learn from that.”
Jim: Right.
Trisha: And so, the first 10 years of our marriage, I was operating as if Justin was going to have an affair even though there was no indication at the time that he would.
Jim: But attitudinally, that’s the vibe you were giving.
Trisha: Yes. And I didn’t even… I didn’t-
Jim: Lack of trust.
Trisha: … even know it.
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: Yeah. Absolutely.
Jim: I mean, that’s really what that is, is a lack of trust.
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that comes out, and then that comes over to you, Justin. (laughs) I mean, d- dealing with all this, what, what were your parents and what was happening with your folks?
Justin: Well, I think we, we don’t understand the expectations and the things from our families that we bring into our marriage relationships when we get married. There’s a lack of understanding in that. My parents also, um, got married f- 15 days after I was born. Um, my mom got pregnant in high school. And so, I grew up really poor, very, you know, very aware of the brokenness that my parents had. Then, they found Christ and we started going to church all the time. But looking back now, you know, as a 50-year-old person, my dad didn’t tell me how to be deceitful. He didn’t teach me how to lie. But when I was in high school, I would go to my dad and he would say, “Hey, do you have enough money for tonight?” And I would say, “I could always use more,” and he would take a $5 bill out of his wallet. It was all folded up. And he would say, “Here’s $5. Don’t tell your mom I gave it to you.” And so, there was this awareness that I had that my dad was hiding things from my mom and I thought if I let her know that, at minimum she would be disappointed or it would cause conflict. Well, as we started our marriage relationship, that shaped, not wanting to have conflict, shaped how I interacted with Trish. And so, she had suspicions about not just me, but about marriage in general, about faithfulness, and I had this propensity to avoid conflict at all costs, which caused hiddenness.
Jim: Hm.
Justin: And so, we were operating out of this dysfunction that we didn’t even know we had that became a part of our marriage equation that ended up obviously revealing itself when everything hit rock bottom.
Jim: Yeah. And so often, we refer to these things in the Christian community as generational sins.
Justin: Yes.
Jim: You know, these are just things that we pick up so astutely as children and we inculcate them into our behavior. I mean, it’s why we have sayings like, “People don’t fall far from the tree.”
John: Far from the tree. Mm-hmm.
Jim: Right? And because we do pick up a lot of our behavior from our parents, good and bad. In that regard, I mean, this thing is like a box of coat hangers for you. You then found out through DNA testing something about your parents. What was that?
Trisha: So wild.
Jim: (laughs) It just keeps going.
Trisha: Your listeners are gonna go, “What is happening right now?” (laughs)
Jim: Well, but you know what’s good about this? If you, then why not me?
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: In terms of knowing God, loving God-
Trisha: True.
Jim: … and having God-
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: … help me to, you know, live a life that’s honoring to Him because, man, you, you got the whole thing stacked against you.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: So what happened with the DNA test?
Trisha: Well, my, my dad is Hispanic, and we… They’re starting to age, and so I just went on Ancestry to start a family tree. I, I believe Justin’s mom had done it at some point or someone in their family. It’s, it’s just very innocent. And it came back that I had zero Hispanic, and I… It was very confusing. Now, my dad is a, you know, short little Mexican man with dark hair, dark skin. H- he, he just, um, recently sadly passed away, but, um, I, I’m blond hair, blue eyes, and people were like, “Did you ever suspect?” And I said, “Never.” I am such my dad’s daughter. Like, we like to work with our hands. We like to… Like, all the things.
Jim: Well, he was your dad in that way.
Trisha: H- Yeah. It was just our weirdo things.
Jim: Okay.
Trisha: We were a, a lot alike. And I look a lot like my mom. So, that, you know, happens. And so when it came back, it unraveled. It took what… When we were on here all these years ago and wrote Beyond Ordinary, I have used that as an opportunity to share with the world this gift of forgiveness and w- what forgiveness means, and now it was like, was I wrong? I thought I was a forgiveness expert and now I’m realizing the story unfolding that my mom had an affair when she was… You know, she was young. S- so much grace for this young girl who made this decision. Um, and I was the product of an affair. So, th- there’s one aspect of it.
Jim: Yeah. And your mo- you and your mom talked about that, or how did that discussion unfold?
Trisha: It was a very messy unfolding and not a lot of honesty given. It was, it was a pretty traumatic experience, and what made it even more difficult is that my dad didn’t know.
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: And so, having to tell my dad that he wasn’t my biological father was just… It was just-
Jim: Wow.
Trisha: … gutting. But then to add just to the chaos, in this same week, uh, Justin had found out in 2009 when our story kind of unfolded about being a person of truth and, you know, being a truth teller, Justin’s mom confessed to him in 2009 that his dad wasn’t his biological dad.
Jim: So, both of you shared that experience.
Trisha: But, (laughs) then it… Yeah.
Justin: Well, so I had that experience in 2009 where my mom confessed this, and in 2014, I met my, who my mom said was my biological father, and a few months before he passed away, and I said to Trisha as we were walking out of the nursing home, I said, “That’s not the guy.” She goes, “What do you mean?” I said, “That’s not my dad.” She goes, “I know, honey. It’s a lot to take in.” I said, “No, that is-
Jim: You just knew.
Justin: … that isn’t my biological father.” And so, about a week before Trish did Ancestry DNA, I did it as well. And my results came in six days after Trisha had found out that her dad wasn’t her dad for the first time, and I found out that my dad wasn’t my dad again. So, the person that my mom told me was my biological father was not.
John: Hm.
Justin: And so, we were both, and this is in 2021, so this is, you know, not that long ago, and we were both going through this traumatic experience, me for the second time, Trish for the first time, together.
Trisha: A little caveat though is-
Justin: Our dad-
Trisha: … we are not related. (laughs)
Justin: (laughs) Our dads aren’t the same guy. (laughs) Yeah.
Trisha: That’s all we… (laughs) That’s all I wanted. (laughs)
Jim: That’s a silver lining.
Trisha: (laughs)
Jim: My goodness. But it does… I mean, it just, like, keeps unraveling.
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It’s an amazing story that you guys have, and…
Justin: It, it was one of those things where I’m, I’m so grateful for the process of forgiveness and the process of restoration and reconciliation that we had gone through in our marriage because it was this solidifying moment in our story and in our, for our family, where Trish had already modeled for me what forgiveness looked like. And so, I could almost use her template of forgiving my mom and forgiving the people who had kept this secret from me my whole life.
Jim: Well and the, you know, the scripture that jumps into my mind is, “Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more.”
Justin: Hm.
Jim: I mean, you guys had a bucket of sin in your families.
Justin: Yes.
Jim: And, you know, we all do.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: That’s the reality.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: But you guys just got hit with it left, right, and center, and it just kept coming. Wow.
John: And it seems the Lord just continued to bring back what you said earlier, uh, Trisha, that forgiveness is the beginning. It’s not the, the goal. Well, there’s so much here to this story, and, uh, if you didn’t catch the p- prior part of today or last time, uh, we’ve got it on the mobile app or online, and get a copy of this book, uh, for the whole story and so much more. Uh, Justin and Trisha Davis are our guests. They’ve written One Choice Away from Change: Break the Cycles That Hurt Your Relationships and Hold You Back. Uh, we’ve got copies of that book here at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And, uh, in the book, you talk about cycles, and this is one of those dangerous cycles of unforgiveness because that tends to be, uh, kind of coloring all of our relationships. So, speak to that and talk about the long-term damage of unforgiveness.
Trisha: Bitterness in and of itself gets a bad rep because it, it’s not healthy, obviously, but I don’t think people choose to be unforgiving people. I think that we choose bitterness because it’s a place of safety, if you can think about it of building a wall. So, every time someone tries to hurt us and we put another brick on the wall of bitterness, we convince ourselves I’m gonna build this wall so you can’t have access to my heart. But over time, what happens is that you build walls so high, and in, and so surrounding, that you miss out on the life that God has called you to. And so, learning, you know, being stuck in that becomes isolating. You can be hypervigilant. You, you keep yourself… You know, I, I’ve had to learn that my rose-colored glasses are not a gift. It’s not reality. It’s, it’s kind of smoothing over the rough edges, but when my life was shattered, now again with my whole life, like I… My whole life was a lie. That was a really… A lot to take in. But the glasses I was putting on, they were shattered, but they became a prism of God working through my pain. And so, my capacity… Now, I could not say this week one or maybe year one, but now a couple years out, the process of forgiveness not only was setting me free, but it was setting my mom free. I, I, I said to my mom just recently, “I love that you get to walk in truth for the first time in 48 years.”
Jim: Wow.
Trisha: You don’t have to carry this lie anymore. And seeing that gift of freedom for her, even though what’s on the other side of it for me, that’s where, instead of living in the danger of bitterness and resentment that just flows into other relationships, forgiveness, uh, we often feel is, like, oh, just forgive and forget. You know? We talk about this in the book. Some of those attributes that we put to forgiveness that are not real, that forgiveness is a one-time thing, or you don’t have the capacity to forgive. I had to remember that forgiveness is God-given. It’s not man-made.
John: Hm.
Trisha: And that’s… Jesus gives us this powerful example of what it means to offer that sacrificial forgiveness, but we can’t stop there. And not to feel like I’m preaching a sermon, but it is where we stop. We stop at the cross, but the story doesn’t end there. You know, Jesus literally walks out of the grave and flips sin up on its head. And that’s the truth that we get to live in now. The forgiveness I offered my mom, yes, brings freedom to me, but it also opens a doorway for her to feel love and acceptance-
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: … by, by her Heavenly Father that I have the power, that God has given me that authority, to pour over her. So, then it becomes less just about my circumstances, but more about the bigger picture of the call of Christ.
Jim: Yeah. I think the other aspect here as we wind down our time together, it was four years of reconciliation. It wasn’t four days, four weeks, four months. Four years is a long grind.
Justin: (laughs)
Jim: Describe that.
Justin: We equate success with the pain going away. And so, I think when Trish and I had to make this choice of reconciliation, she mentioned this earlier, it was whatever it takes. And we had to be comfortable in the uncomfortability of being honest, of recognizing our wounds. Our counselor said something to us early on. He said, “You can’t heal a wound you don’t give a name to.” And so, we had to identify the wounds that we were carrying and the wounds that we had inflicted and be willing to go on the long journey. And I’ll tell you guys. Four years sounds like a long time, but 20 years later, it was so worth it.
Jim: Yeah. That’s good to hear.
Justin: I wouldn’t trade any of those-
Jim: Yeah.
Justin: … counseling sessions. I wouldn’t trade any of that time in because who we are 20 years later and who we were, you know, two years into that reconciliation process, I would take it over and over again.
Jim: That’s pretty awesome actually. I mean, you’ve gone through a tough journey, but what a great journey. I want to mention RefineUs Ministries. First of all, who wants to say, (laughs) “Lord refine us”? That’s-
Justin: (laughs)
John: Dangerous prayer.
Jim: That’s the prayer you avoid.
Justin: Oh.
Jim: But you shouldn’t.
Trisha: We’ve tried-
Jim: I mean-
Trisha: … to change the name many times. (laughs) Like, I’m done. I’m done.
Jim: Yeah. Who signs up?
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: “God refine us,” I’m ready for that?
Justin: God, we’re done being refined. Well, let’s put it in past tense. Refined Ministries. We, we’ve, we’ve been there and done that.
Trisha: (laughs)
Jim: We say that tongue in cheek because it’s so true. I mean, this is what this life is about and what it’s for, I think.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: So we can recognize those things. And when, you know… If you were to put a s- speedometer on that, I mean, you guys did 120-
Trisha: (laughs)
Jim: … in terms of refine us. I mean, here it all is out of the bag. Anything left in that bag?
Trisha: Hm.
Jim: No Lord, it’s empty. You’re out. You’re shaking it upside down. I think you got it all, God. I, I don’t know many human beings actually end up in that life experience. There’s always something in the bag. I mean, it’s such an amazing thing. But speak to what your ministry does, RefineUs, and let’s see how many people show up.
Justin: (laughs)
Trisha: You… I’ve never heard anybody put it that way before-
Justin: (laughs)
Trisha: … and it’s so powerful, is refinement is a, a choice that we all have. That, that’s the difference choice. And, you know, we all talk about Adam and Eve and what happened in the garden, but they had a choice. And just because they made the choice to choose their own doesn’t mean that they didn’t have the choice to choose God.
John: Hm.
Trisha: And so, regardless, you know, the person listening or watching, they may think that, that could never be my story. The only reason we have a refined marriage is ’cause you had two people who chose it. I could love God the best of my ability, but it can’t change Justin, and vice versa. And so, this refinement process of what we do is help you have tools. Really, the heart of the book is h- how are we still standing? What… How did we make that choice?
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: And RefineUs Ministries exists to help people not just put up with your relationships, but truly thrive and find feeling and hope in a way that isn’t culturally based but is God designed.
Jim: Yeah.
Justin: We say we go first to give you permission to go second. And so, you know, for the person that’s listening or watching, you hope that you think, well, I’m not as bad as they are, right?
Trisha: (laughs)
Justin: Because it… We, we, we need something to give us hope that transformation is possible.
Jim: Yeah.
Justin: And so, we don’t leverage our story for our own glory. We leverage it for the glory of God who has brought about healing and transformation.
Jim: Yeah. That’s so good. Let me ask this, just because your laughter tips-
Trisha: I’m sorry.
Jim: No. No. It tips the hat.
Justin: They have to edit that out.
Trisha: Turn that way down.
Justin: (laughs)
Jim: Don’t be sorry because I, I think humor is so critical. And you can’t always laugh. But if you lose the ability to laugh, you’re in a bad spot, I think. And how did you maintain a sense of humor? Not always there, but I can tell you both have great senses of humor. Did that ever come into play in your relationship, in the, in the hard times?
Trisha: We have learned that you can… I call it the both and. We almost feel like when we’re in really traumatic or hard things, that if we laugh, it somehow makes it feel like we’re still not in pain. But recognizing the both and. Like, the joy of the Lord is our strength and it’s why James tells us to find it, pure joy, when we’re going through crazy stuff. And when you’re able to see that, it does give you a heart to find joy and to laugh. My daughter, uh, we adopted, uh, several years ago our son and daughter when they were seven and nine, and they have wild, hard stories. But she says, “We laugh so we don’t cry.” (laughs)
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: But… (laughs)
Jim: No, I mean, I think it’s true.
Trisha: There is that moment. Think about when we go to, um, a funeral and remember somebody’s life. There is both the pain of loss and then the joy of remembrance. And our story isn’t all loss. It… We won. Like, our marriage, we, we won, and for the person’s heart, like Jesus won. Like, we… That’s where the joy is that we can laugh, and that is. We just talk all the time. Like, you have to… Just as much as you search for the pain, you have to be willing to live in the joy.
Jim: Well, Trisha and Justin, you have brought some incredible insight into marriage and healthy marriage and relationship with Christ through all of it. You’ve done such an incredible job really, and I just thank you for that example for every couple to know more about. And you can get a copy of their book by contacting us here at Focus on the Family. John will give those details in a moment. But what a great place to start. If you can make a gift of any amount, monthly or one-time gift, that really helps us do more ministry, and you can jump in with us. That accrues to your account in heaven, not ours. We’re just the conduit. But, uh, join us. And if you can’t afford it, we get it. Uh, not everybody’s in that spot. Just let us know you need the book and we’ll get it to you and trust someone else will cover the cost of that.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We’re a phone call away, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, where, uh, we’ve got details about donating and getting a copy of this book. Also, Hope Restored, our marriage intensives, all at the website, and that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And we could really use your financial contribution right now because we’re experiencing a bit of a summer budget shortfall. So if you’re able to help us today, that would be great. Now coming up tomorrow, understanding how much your teen wants to grow up.
Dr. Kenneth Wilgus: Somewhere in every teenager’s soul is the question, “Hey, I’m beginning to look, think, and act more like an adult. When will you say that I am completely an adult?”
