Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

John Fuller: Here’s a comment from someone whose marriage was transformed through a Focus on the Family marriage intensive. “I was forever changed and tremendously grateful for the tools given to us to change a stormy relationship into a peaceful calm. What a gift God gave us here in a safe environment with counselors and staff who are totally walking in a close relationship with Christ. Miracles happen.”

What we’re talking today about marriage transformation on this episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

And we’ll hear from Tara Lalonde and Bob Paul. They’re two of those safe counselors, uh, who serve at our marriage intensives. And they’ll be offering encouragement and practical tools for your marriage. I’m John Fuller. Thanks for joining us.

Jim Daly: John. I know this conversation is gonna be so helpful. And people, especially those who are supporting the ministry, we’ve got five strategic goals. It’s evangelism, marriage, parenting, advocacy for children, and engaging the culture. This program is squarely in that marriage column.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, uh, last year alone, we helped, we together helped over 170,000 couples through a marital crisis.

John: Hmm.

Jim: That is a big number, and I hope in the right way you would be proud of that as a donor to Focus on the Family. One of the core things we do in that marriage column is something called Hope Restored, where marriages that are on the brink of being broken-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … uh, couples can go for an intensive, usually a four-day intensive. And we have an astounding 80% success rate where we go back two years later and those couples are still married and doing better. So we’re really proud of that, I hope you are too. We want marriages to thrive and Bob and Tara are both, uh, really linked into that program. So I’m excited for today.

John: I, I am too, Jim. And as you know, uh, my wife Dena and I attended a Hope Restored Marriage Intensive a number of years ago. Not too long ago. We were, we weren’t divorced minded, but we were just cold and worn out, and we couldn’t find our way back to what’s healthy, what’s warm and intimate. And Hope Restored gave us tools that we use every day. So I really want listeners and viewers to lean in. This is good stuff. And Tara Lalonde is a counselor with Focus on the Family Canada.

Jim: Yay!

John: And Dr. Bob Paul is, as you said, he’s with Focus on the Family here in the US.

Jim: Yay!

John: They’ve co-written a book full of principles from Hope Restored, and, uh, they’re also gonna be offering insights into how those principles have helped them in their own marriages. So the book is called Empowered to Love: Discovering Your God-Given Power to Create a Marriage You Both Love. And you can find details about the book and our guests at FocusOnTheFamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Tara and Bob, welcome to the program.

Dr. Bob Paul: Oh, so good to be here.

Tara Lalonde: Thank you.

Bob: So exciting-

Jim: Good.

Bob: … to be here.

Jim: I am excited about this. This gets, it gets me going. When we’re helping 170,000 couples through a crisis, that’s meaningful, in a year. I mean, that’s just one year. So thank you for your efforts in making that happen so directly.

There’s so much that we’re doing in that marriage space, you know, not just kind of this, uh, drastic moment where you can come to Hope Restored and hopefully get your marriage back on track. But even maintenance things like Marriage 911 and some other things that we do. So if your marriage is not where you want it to be, just get ahold of us. Uh, you know, we’ve been at it 45 years. You’re not gonna surprise us.

Tara: Mm-hmm.

Jim: We want to help you. And, uh, you know, everybody can use a little bit of help in this space, even if you’re doing well. Uh, Tara, let’s get into it. The big part of the book is the research you found during your dissertation. I love this.

Tara: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You did a PhD program at Liberty. Uh, can you give us kind of the background and what you were looking for? What caught your attention to even do this?

Tara: Yeah, so really exciting. Uh, this was back in probably 2014, I think, is when I defended and I studied the Hope Restored Program. Didn’t even know what it was when I started my research, but as I interviewed… I did a qualitative study. Qualitative is different from quantitative. Quantitative is numbers. My brain doesn’t do numbers. It was qualitative. I interviewed six couples who had all gone through a marriage intensive one year prior.

Jim: Okay.

Tara: All right?

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Tara: Three of the couples, all of them said it was amazing. They loved the program. They were hopeful going forward, they were gonna do this-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Tara: … at the end of the intensive, ’cause we always do an end of intensive survey.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Tara: So they all said it was good. One year later, three of the couples were continuing with their gains. They were doing well, things were moving in the direction that they were wanting it to. Three couples were not. Two of them, sadly, were on the way to divorce.

Jim: Yeah. And in that, it’s, some of that is just putting into practice those things that you’re learning. And I don’t, you know, we as human beings, (laughs), I mean, I’m guilty of that, you know, I can know to do the right thing, but doing the right thing is a whole nother thing.

Bob, we’re talking mostly today about, uh, practically treating your spouse well and managing that conflict. And we’re gonna get into all of that.

Um, I also want to share some encouragement with people who feel like they have lost that love in their marriage. The fact that it can be rekindled. Is that truly a hope if it feels dark and not very warm in my relationship with my spouse?

Bob: Without question. What we find is that, you know, we ask couples one question before they come to Hope Restored. And this is the question, “If God was to work a miracle in your marriage, would you accept it?” Now, this miracle could seem impossible to them. Uh, and we consider a miracle, um, both people loving the relationship and the direction it’s headed. So it’s a big deal. We’re talking the, you know, the bar’s set high, and that’s the only question they have to answer yes to.

So we see these couples come in, in desperate shape, oftentimes can barely look at each other. And what our staff gets to witness is God comes in and does miraculous work in our hearts, ’cause if our heart’s available, he will not hesitate to come in.

Jim: Well-

Bob: They walk away, hand-in-hand.

Jim: Well, the, the follow up there is, you know, why is it so important that a person, uh, stay connected to God for the best outcome? I mean, it’s kind of self-evident, but.

Bob: Well, I mean, really, God is critical to our life, period. Just survival. I mean, we don’t, the only reason I’m here breathing is because God’s hand is on me. So to not do this with God and to not open our heart to him and to see what’s possible with him, because he is so devoted to our health and wellbeing, and he wants our relationships to be awesome, like his relationships are.

Jim: What does taking personal responsibility look like in a marriage?

Tara: Oh, good question.

Jim: Yeah. Big question.

Tara: Because this is kind of the big piece with both the intensives, but also our book. Personal responsibility is really taking your power back. It’s what I have responsibility for and knowing what I don’t have responsibility for. So many couples like, “Fix him,” right? Or her.

Jim: Jenni might agree with that. I don’t know (laughs).

Tara: Right?

Bob: Absolutely. Yes.

Tara: But we don’t have any power over there. If I’m trying to do all this work to get Vince fixed, I have no control there.

Jim: Yeah.

Tara: But if I can focus in and look at, “What can I do differently? How can I make this situation better? How can I care for my heart?”

Jim: Yeah.

John: Mm-hmm.

Tara: That’s… Well, you know what comes to mind? You know, coming outta Proverbs, one of the wisest people or the wisest person outside of Jesus, King Solomon said, “Above all else, guard your spouse’s heart?”

John: Hmm

Jim: (laughter)

Tara: “Above all else, guard your heart.”

Jim: Yeah. Yeah.

Tara: “It’s the wellspring of your life.” This is so important. Above everything else, we need to do internal personal work.

John: Hmm.

Jim: Well, I mean, even going back again to the garden when Adam says, “Yeah, that woman you gave me.” Right?

John: (laughs)

Bob: Yes.

Jim: I mean, he quickly deflected-

Tara: Right there.

Jim: … responsibility, but that is the example we’re talking about. You know, I’d have-

Tara: Yeah.

Jim: … I’d have a lot better marriage if you, fill in the blank. If you did this, if you did that. And that’s part of working on your own stuff and-

Tara: Yeah.

Jim: … and kind of letting your spouse work on their stuff. Um, again, how did personal responsibility help? And I’m sure these are not their real names, and we protect people that way.

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jim: But in your, uh, study, you talked to Sadie and Bill-

Tara: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … within that research group. How were they managing that personal responsibility or not?

Tara: Yeah. Oh, I love that. They came out of it both excited about it. But very quickly after that, Sadie went back into just pain and hurt. The betrayal from Bill was pretty significant-

John: Hmm.

Tara: … leading into the intensive. But Bill grabbed hold of this, and he has changed. And he dug into his relationship with the Lord. He took that responsibility and decided, “I’m not gonna be that guy anymore.” And that changed things. It was nine months, nine months before Sadie was able to recognize, “You know what, I think this is gonna stick. I think the change is real.” And then she was able to-

Jim: Wow.

Tara: … start looking at her own pain and doing her own healing. I saw them three months later and they were in a very different place. It was so powerful.

Jim: Well, that’s good. Um, Bob, let me ask you, why is creating… And, and let me, for the listener and the viewer, you know, we’ll talk about reactive cycle. You may have heard that a moment ago. We’ll get into all that definition. But Bob, why is creating a safe marriage so important, and what’s the definition of a “safe” marriage?

Bob: Well, you know, it’s interesting because the, most people, if you ask them, is their marriage safe. the first thing, and maybe even the only thing they think of, is it physically safe? Which of course is extremely important.

Tara: Mm-hmm.

Bob: However, we broaden that because when we’re talking about safety, we’re talking about, um, not only physically, but mentally, spiritually, and emotionally.

Jim: Yeah.

Bob: Because what we’ve found is that when people truly feel safe in the relationship in all those ways, they just relax. And when they relax, their hearts open. They give the Lord access, and things start to change in them, and between them, almost effortlessly.

Tara: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Yeah.

Bob: So we really focus on saying you want to be taking an inventory. Do both of you really feel safe in all those areas? And if not, what’s missing? And what could you do differently to increase that?

Jim: Yeah. You know, uh, I want to get to an example of what that looks like. How your marriage can have that safety and what that looks like. Jean caught me on a parenting one, and I have that application where, you know, I’m a pretty big guy. And when I would be upset with the boys, she was just noticing how they were responding to me. If my voice was up, I mean, I physically, that would never happen. But it just, you know, my aggravation on something and my voice would be up and my stature would be up.

Tara: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And they’re like five. And she said, “Man, you gotta get down on a knee. Because I was watching the boys. When you are upset, you get bigger-”

Tara: Mm-hmm.

Jim: “… and you’re already a big guy.” So that was interesting. Um, just how to manage my physical presence in front of my sons when I wasn’t pleased with something they had done to kind of get down on their level. I’m sure that application is true in marriage too.

Bob: Oh my gosh. Oh, yeah. I’ve had an exactly similar situation happen in an interaction that Jenni and I had that really went poorly. And-

Jim: Oh, please describe it, (laughs).

Bob: Let’s not let anybody hang notice. She, she-

John: We’ll just listen, go ahead and just tell us.

Bob: Yeah. She, she came and at me after, in a way that normally I’d be the pursuer. But in this particular case, Jenni got upset and ran toward me and kind of physically was in my face. And I said, “No, that’s not gonna happen.” All the kids heard the scuffle and they were all standing up the stairway in order, staring at us eyes wide as saucers. And I said, “Okay. As a man, I can’t let this happen.” And I grabbed her wrist and I kind of pushed her back and I made a point and I said, I said, “It is not okay for you to get physical with me, ever.” Okay. So anyway, that stopped. Everything went back to normal. As time went on, I found out that every single one of them was upset with me. And even though Jenni had pursued me. And I took the time to find out why. And what I realized was, you know, I’m a big guy. I’m 6’4″. Jenni’s no slouch. Jenni’s 5’9″, and she’s built to last, she’s a, was an intercollegiate athlete. So, but I can, when I hug her, I can rest my, my chin on the top of her head. And what I found out when I interviewed everybody was that I puffed up and I scared them. And-

John

Mm-hmm.

Bob: … really the reality was that I could have taken ’em all out like this. And I never think of myself that way. But when I puffed up, like you were describing, I was very intimidating. And I realized that that was not safe. And that I want to create a place where, for both me and Jenni, both of us feel so relaxed, not fearing in any way, that either our bodies will be dishonored or disrespected, our thoughts, that’s mental safety. That we would not feel, um, that we’re about to be criticized for the way we think. Our hearts would be safe. Our feelings would feel welcomed and safe. And our spirit, that we would be able to pray together and be in front of God together without fear of criticism or ridicule.

John: Hmm. Uh, this is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and our guests today, our Dr. Bob Paul and Tara Lalonde. And, uh, they’re talking about content from their book, Empowered to Love. And, uh, we’ve got copies of that here at the ministry.

Also, Jim mentioned, uh, our team can talk with you and, uh, offer some direction. Uh, our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. And you’ll find details at FocusOnTheFamily.com/broadcast.

And, and right here we’re talking about something that was really meaningful to Dena and me. And that is, uh, what you mentioned earlier, Tara, the reactive cycle. This is something that just was huge for us because we were always hitting that, why don’t you describe what that is.

Tara: Yeah. So reactive cycle is one of our most powerful tools. I mean, they’re all really, really powerful, but it’s a diagnostic tool really. So how that works is one or the other gets triggered, a button gets pressed.

John: Hmm.

Tara: And immediately our prefrontal cortex go offline and we are in this fight flight place or a shutdown place. But what that ends up looking like, when we feel that we’re no longer adult brain driving the bus, now we’re reacting. So our button gets pressed and immediately we react. And our reactions, pretty much guaranteed, are gonna press a button of our spouse and their brains go offline, too.

Jim: We are so good at that.

John: (laughs).

Jim: I mean, as human beings-

Tara: Oh my gosh.

Bob: We are.

Jim: … we are so good at pressing each other’s buttons.

Tara: Oh, yeah.

Jim: It’s crazy.

Tara: And what… Most couples don’t go out, “I’m going to get you.”

Jim: Right. Not at all.

Tara: We just, we just don’t.

John: Yeah.

Tara: But anything can press a button because they’re my buttons.

John: Yeah.

Jim: Actually the more subtle the button pressing, the more sophisticated we perceive ourselves (laughs).

Tara: So pull things.

Bob: I press that button so easily.

John: I’m so good at this.

Tara: Right?

Jim: But you in fact have an example which will help everybody and maybe, uh, the others of us here at the table have examples. But it was a restaurant with your husband.

John: Ah.

Jim: Describe… I mean, this is such a simple example of how this works.

Tara: Oh, yeah. Right. I mean, it happens all the time. But we were at this beautiful little restaurant. We were in Nice. It was gorgeous. A lovely day. We had this lunch, I can even remember what we were eating. It was wonderful. But it was lunch. And I mean, we’re on vacation, you’re eating tons. And we had decided together that let’s just share an appetizer and share a main ’cause we don’t need a huge meal, and then have dinner later.

Jim: (laughs).

Tara: Good plan. It was all good. I ordered and they brought the appetizer and then they brought the main on two plates. And we just thought, “Oh, that was nice. They split it.” ‘Cause you’ve been to restaurants where that’s happened.

John: Mm-hmm.

Tara: They’ve split it up for us. Great.

Jim: Yeah. It’s very nice.

Tara: This is good. It was delicious. It was a, a tuna. It was amazing.

Jim: And you ate it all. Both of you.

Tara: And we both indeed ate it all.

Jim: (laughs). That’s important for the end of the story.

John: Yeah.

Jim: Go ahead.

Tara: Yeah. It, it wasn’t too much food. But the problem was when the bill came, they charged us for two mains.

John: Ah.

Tara: So it was a mistake. A miscommunication. Or the waiter, I don’t know. But it’s France and I don’t speak French.

Jim: (laughs).

Tara: So there could have been something like that. Now Vince does speak French. He’s fully francophone, but I happen to be the one making the order. And that pressed a button for Vince. And he was really disappointed. You gotta understand, Vince is somebody who values precision and getting things right and accuracy. And when this didn’t happen, and I was the one who made the order. Okay, so you’re beginning to see where this may go.

Jim: You made the mistake.

Tara: Hmm.

Bob: Button, button, button button.

Tara: So there’s this disappointment button in him that’s being pressed and I’m the cause of it.

John: Mm-hmm.

Tara: So immediately he blames me.

Jim: And how’d that make you feel?

Tara: Great. No (laughs).

John: (laughs).

Jim: Right. That then pushes that button to say-

Tara: Oh my goodness.

Jim: … now you’ve got shame and guilt, ’cause you didn’t manage that well.

John: Mm-hmm.

Tara: Right. So-

Jim: Now you’re gonna push another button of his now.

Tara: Yeah. So I feel judged and that’s a big one for me.

Jim: (laughs).

Tara: And back up. There you go. Brain’s not there. Adult isn’t present anymore, and I start reacting. And I don’t remember if I got defensive, probably that would’ve been the first one out of the gate, getting defensive. And of course my defensiveness gets hit and we ramp it up a notch.

John: Yeah.

Tara: And another button’s pressed for him and he starts criticizing and now we’re off to the races.

Jim: “This is a wonderful vacation.”

John: (laughs).

Jim: “So glad we did this and spent all this money in France.”

Tara: I had no idea that you were there, Jim.

John: Aww…

Jim: (laughs). Oh, believe me, I was there.

Tara: (laughs).

Jim: This was a different day. And it was Jean and me.

John: Yeah.

Bob: (laughs).

Tara: Right. Hmm. Yeah. So we, and off we go-

Jim: Yeah.

Tara: … and we do that. But you know what got worse about this? I mean I teach this stuff.

Jim: I love this. More confession.

Tara: Right? I teach this stuff. So I was able to kind of pause this and in fairness, Vince doesn’t spend too many times with this. He’ll shut down and we don’t. But then I take the baton and “Okay, so we’re not gonna do this. I’m gonna start doing it in my own head.” And I started having my own reactive cycle of here we are, we’re on vacation.

John: (laughs).

Tara: This was what, doing what you said but in my head, and I’m pressing my own buttons, making this worse.

Jim: Oh, man.

Tara: Until finally my adult brain went, “Tara, this isn’t helping.” Maybe it was Holy Spirit too-

Jim: Yeah.

Tara: … saying, “Um, honey, this isn’t helping.”

Jim: (laughs).

Tara: And I took a deep breath. “You’re right.” And then I moved to a place of back into my own yard, paying attention to my own heart, caring, having compassion, not lighting myself on fire.

Bohn: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Let me ask both of you, since you are the practitioners at Hope Restored, uh, Tara, you with Canada and Bob of course here in the US. Is this… I mean, I have the impression that this is like 80% of the problem in this communication style. Of course we have severe issues of infidelity. But just in the day-to-day, all of us kind of category, the button pushing to me seems to be, like for Jean and I, this is the issue and we try to do it better. And to Jean’s credit, she is so good now at, uh, kind of deescalating the energy, which is really good. But, but I’m just saying from kind of your day-to-day normal stuff in marriage, is this one of the big things?

Bob: You know, when we first found this many, many years ago, we didn’t realize that it applied to everybody.

Tara: (laughs).

Bob: We found out this is, this is-

Tara: Mm-hmm.

Bob: … what’s going on, underlying conflict with virtually everyone. Everyone’s got their own, you know, unique version of it. Because our, my buttons are different than Tara’s buttons than your buttons and John’s buttons and Jenni’s buttons, they’re all different. But the cycle itself operates exactly the same. And once you can see it, as Tara said, it’s diagnostic. It doesn’t fix anything, it just helps you. It turns the light on.

Jim: Yeah.

Bob: Shows you the problem, so you can then begin to see, like Jean, like you just described Jean, how you break the cycle. That’s exactly what you wanna-

Tara: Mm-hmm.

Bob: … do, is you wanna pause and not react so that the cycle stops.

Tara: Yeah.

Jim: Bob, in the book you talk about these reactions, knee-jerk reactions, we might refer to them regarding-

Tara: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … conflict. And there’s two words, very scientific, hedgehog and shadow monster.

Bob: (laughs).

Tara: Indeed.

Jim: I, this is why you get a PhD.

John: Yeah.

Jim: So what are the hedgehog and shadow monster definitions?

Bob: You know, a shadow monster, and this is really, I credit Tara for this ’cause this was really ideas that she brought forth and they’re fabulous. But the truth is, um, we typically go to one, one strategy or another.

Jim: Hmm.

Bob: And the shadow monster is like when something vulnerable gets triggered in you and you don’t wanna admit it or share it or even acknowledge it. What we tend to do is we project a pretty scary image out there as if you had a, uh, flashlight focused on you projecting a big image on the wall to get the other person to go, hmm, and back off. And that’s a way to keep your vulnerability from being evidenced by what’s going on in the moment. So that’s what a shadow monster is. And many times we do that, we wanna look big and scary so that they don’t know how vulnerable we feel inside.

The hedgehog is when we just want to curl up in a little ball and have our pricklies out there and just basically wanted to hide and, and you know that you wanna leave me alone because if you come and try and embrace me at that point you’re gonna get stuck.

So those are two strategies that are very, very common that any one of us could employ. Either or both.

Jim: (laughs) yeah. I’m laughing ’cause I think I do both at times (laughs).

Bob: Yeah. Oh, I certainly do.

Tara: Right? We probably all do. Yeah.

Jim: Yeah.

Tara: And we’re protecting the little child inside-

John: Mm-hmm.

Tara: … that doesn’t wanna be seen.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Jim: Stopping that reactive cycle, uh, requires in the book you say it requires, um, healthy self-care. When I first read that, I’m going, “Okay, what’s healthy self-care?” ‘Cause it sounds kind of flaky. Sorry. But give me that definition of healthy self-care.

Tara: Yeah. Honestly we have five steps to healthy self-care. First you gotta become aware. You know, what is going on? Notice what’s happening in your body because there’s pretty much always a physiological thing that’s going on when your button gets pressed.

Jim: Huh.

Tara: Yeah. So whether it’s, “Oh my heart’s racing or I’m feeling sweaty or I’m just noticing that my muscles are getting tense and I’m hmm. Or my stomach is dropping or jumping or whatever.” There’s something. And if you can slow down and become aware, that’s the beginning.

Jim: Hmm.

Tara: Okay. The next step is really, really key. Accepting. This one is hard ’cause you’re accepting the feelings-

John: Mm-hmm.

Tara: … these yucky things that we wanna push away, I have to accept them and the responsibility to take care of them.

Jim: Yeah.

Tara: And that’s really hard. And we go into more detail about that. Then we wanna allow God to be part of this, because why not get the perspective of the one who actually sees better than I am without my adult brain.

Jim: Well I so appreciate that, ’cause I was gonna ask that follow up blending of, you know, things that are happening, psychological models. You know, God created us, people can study how we think, how we behave-

Tara: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … what our emotions are. And some of us in the Christian community kind of trip on that a little bit. Like again, like we have to be on a switch all about psychology and not God, or all about God and not recognizing how he’s created us. But you guys, I mean it’s the blending of that, correct?

Tara: Yeah. God wired our brains.

Jim: The understanding of the models and, yeah.

Tara: He created us this way. So if we can understand his creation and how he wired us and bring him into it, as believers, we have something that the rest of the world doesn’t have. We don’t have less, we have more. It’s not an either or. It’s both.

Jim: Which is why it brings us all the way back to what we started with. You know, if you can answer that question, can God do a miracle in your marriage?

Tara: Yeah.

Jim: You gotta be able to say yes, he can. If you say no, your heart is already indicating it’s so hard, it’s gonna be nearly impossible to change that. Bob, let me, uh, extend that self-care idea. The idea that you need to work on the proactive self-care. Describe it for me.

Bob: Okay, so proactive is just general maintenance. Uh, you know, just taking care of yourself, um, you know, making sure you get plenty of exercise, eat well, rest, and so forth. The reality is though that Jim, nobody ever comes to us for help with proactive self-care.

Tara: Mm-hmm.

Bob: They come to us with, for help, “What do I do when my buttons get pushed?” That’s reactive. And, and then there’s, the care cycle is one of the things. Matter of fact, the whole purpose of us writing this book, the distinctive that makes this book different than what we’ve done previously is we’re saying many times in the culture and even in the church, we inadvertently put the cart before the horse. We basically make it all about the marriage the moment we get married. Like we blow out the candles on the, the unity candle and we ignore ourselves. But the reality is the marriage doesn’t exist apart from the people and can never be healthier or more empowered than the people.

So we’re saying let’s make sure that our personal journeys to be fully who God created us to be and bring every drop of what he gave us is actively in place. And then add to it caring well for the relationship and building a good relationship. So first two thirds of the book is on the personal responsibility, on our relationship with God, on getting whole and healthy, finding our purpose and how that relates to the marriage. And then the last third is then how do you take those great principles and turn your marriage into something you love?

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I like that.

John: Love the passion.

Jim: Um, we’re right here at the end of day one, but let’s come back next time and continue the discussion. There’s so much here. And I mean this is one of the core things, especially in the Christian community. Let’s model marriage in such a way that the world goes, “Wow, they’ve got something special and unique.”

Tara: Yeah.

Jim: Isn’t that how it should be?

Tara: Yeah.

Jim: And maybe we’re not there and we need to be. This is a great resource for you and I’d like to encourage you to contact us. Um, think of Focus as just a huge resource center for you when it comes to family. Whether it’s marriage or parenting, whatever it might be. And today we’re concentrating on marriage and we would like to make this wonderful book available to you.

If you can make a gift of any amount, we’ll send it as our way of saying thank you. If you could do that monthly, that really helps us do ministry together, kind of evens out the budget. If you can’t afford it, from time to time I say it, uh, just get in touch with us. We’ll get the book to you and trust that others will cover the cost of it. The goal here is to get you the help you need to have the marriage you want to have.

John: Hmm. Yeah. Our marriage team has so much to help you in your relationship. Uh, give us a call, 800, the letter A and the word family, or stop by FocusOnTheFamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: All right. Let’s come back next time and continue the discussion.

Bob: Oh, so looking forward to it.

Tara: That’s great.

John: And thank you for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back tomorrow as we continue the conversation and once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.