Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Dave Stone: I felt like the Holy Spirit was in me. I could feel His power within me. As I preached, there were three crosses that were in the background of the campfire setting. When I gave the invitation, three people responded and gave their life to Jesus. And I know that I will preach the Gospel until the day that I die.

John Fuller: Hmm. That’s Dave Stone describing God’s early call on his life to become a pastor. And for more than 40 years, Dave has remained faithful to that call. We’re looking forward to hearing his story today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, and thanks for joining us.

Jim Daly: John, I’m so grateful for the service and sacrifice of so many men and women who have dedicated their lives in pastoral ministry. It is a great call. My brother was a pastor, my brother Mike.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And so I watched through his eyes the things that he would do every Sunday. He, uh, pastored up in Montana, and it was quite an experience for him, a kinda rural pastor, you know? Small church of a f- a few dozen.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, you know, so many pastors do so much behind the scenes. Uh, y- I think some of the research that we’ve looked at, pastors tend to work 48 to 74 hours a week.

John: Wow.

Jim: Think of that.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: They wear so many different hats, like my brother, they’re the teacher, the counselor, the worship leader, the business executive, the recruiter, the supervisor, the greeter, and oftentimes the janitor.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, uh, my brother used to do that (laughing), pull all the chairs out, vacuum the carpet, put all the chairs back.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And that’s just the job in some of these churches.

John: Yeah.

Jim: And that’s okay, ’cause that clip that you heard from our guest today, Dave Stone, is the heart of a pastor.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: It’s about how do we get people into the Kingdom of God? That is their goal. And I love the fact that so many are dedicated. The difficulty right now with pastors is many things take them out. And we want to talk about both the blessings and the hardships pastors face today.

John: Mm-hmm. And Focus on the Family has a long track record of advocating for pastors and their families for more than 30 years, uh, addressing some of those unique challenges that they face, both professionally and personally.

Jim: That’s right, John. And I’m so thankful, uh, for the legacy that Reverend, uh, H.B. London left here at Focus on the Family. Of course, he was Dr. Dobson’s cousin. But he started something called Pastor to Pastor, which was a, believe it or not, a CD (laughs) that you could get.

John: Audio subscription kind of thing, yeah.

Jim: And, uh, I think they even did cassettes at that time. Uh, but we are looking forward to talking to Dave about the revival of Pastor to Pastor to help pastors and pastors’ families deal with the load that they have to bear-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … a- as they work through their ministry. And I’m so looking forward to this discussion today.

John: Yeah, an- and Dave Stone has been involved in church ministry for more than 40 years, and currently serves on the teaching team of Christ’s Church of the Valley in Phoenix, Arizona. Jim, he’s a board member here at Focus on the Family, and we’re so excited to have Dave with us, uh, to launch this new podcast, Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone, which, uh, releases tomorrow.

Jim: Yeah, it does. Dave, welcome to the program.

Dave: Thank you guys so much. Jim, John, it’s, it’s great to see both of you all. Thank you for having me on.

Jim: I’m so excited about this because I have felt, uh, I don’t know if it’s a twinge of guilt, but I know that, uh, once H.B. passed away and, obviously, uh, left Focus on the Family, it just, we didn’t have that person. And of course, you’re serving on the board now, and you and I have developed a relationship. And it, it, it is just really exciting to me to see this revived and your willingness to come and do this. I’m so grateful to you.

Dave: Well, it’s exciting to me because, uh, I’ve been in several different ministries. And as, as John mentioned, I’ve been in ministry for over four decades, and I’ve been in all different sized churches. So I’ve kinda seen it all. And I’m a pastor’s kid, so I’ve l- lived it all from even growing up.

Jim: (laughs)

Dave: But, uh, it’s fun to see how God works in all different size churches. I, I was in some small churches, I was youth minister. Uh, I, I then served for 30 years at Southeast Christian Church, which was a, a larger ministry and got to preach a whole lot in that ministry and be the l- the lead pastor. But-

Jim: And that was out in Kentucky, correct?

Dave: Yes, that’s in, in Louisville, Kentucky, and-

Jim: Then you got called to Phoenix. Isn’t that great? (laughs)

John: (laughs)

Jim: (laughing)

Dave: Well, believe it or not, you know, it’s amazing when you hear God’s voice. But I, we still live in Louisville, but we, we go back and forth when we, we preach in Phoenix.

Jim: No, that’s terrific.

Dave: (laughs)

Jim: It’s so good. Let’s pick up on the pastor’s kid part-

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: … because that, that, what I see oftentimes is children of pastors are under such a microscope-

Dave: Mm-hmm.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that it really sends them in one of two directions. Like yourself, you grow up and you become a pastor. And then others, that pressure really suffocates them. And maybe the expectation of, of living perfectly in front of a congregation is so stifling that they choose a different path. Um, uh, tell me about your father’s ministry, and what did he do that kept you kind of, uh, glued into the faith and not repelled by it?

Dave: Well, I, I have one brother and no sisters. And my brother and I both were drawn to the ministry and, and became preachers because our dad was the same man in the pulpit that he was at home. And that was winsome and attractive to us. And Mom and Dad talked positively about the church, but they also didn’t hide from us the struggles and some of the challenges that were there. And so they gave us a realistic picture of the ups and downs of it. And, uh, yes, it was a fishbowl existence. It wasn’t a large church, but in that town, we were the pastor’s kids and everyone knew that. And they helped us to see, and I tried to do the same thing with my three children, uh, they helped us to see that the reason they were making their decisions were not because we were the pastor’s kid, but because we were Christians. We were Christ followers. And that is what drew us to the church, was because, okay, this is, this rule or this boundary is not there because of the fact that, oh, it’s, Dad’s the pastor. But no, it’s because we wanna follow Jesus.

Jim: Yeah.

Dave: An- and we wanna follow Him completely.

Jim: That’s so good. Now, y- you gotta tell me, though, t- y- you did light a firecracker or two?

Dave: Oh, man. We did-

Jim: (laughs)

Dave: We did everything. You know, that was back in the vanilla wafer days, back when VBS and… You know, we knew where all the food was hidden.

Jim: (laughs)

Dave: Lost and found, we had some good deals worked out with Dad. If it was in there for a month and nobody came to get it, you know, then, then somehow we got dibs on it. But yeah, we, we did some things. And I carried it over with, with my kids. Our, some of our highlights were, uh, hide and seek every Christmas. And for birthday parties, we’d play hide and seek in the church.

Jim: (laughs)

Dave: Now, we, we did have some boundaries. You could not go in the sanctuary, but most every other place was, was safe. And it was-

Jim: (laughs)

Dave: … it was boundary-free there. So we would play hide and seek in the dark, uh-

Jim: (laughs)

Dave: … every Christmas night. And for our kids’ birthday parties, we would get together, they could bring their friends. As long as a kid n- didn’t break a rule, they were invited back the next year.

Jim: Uh, that’s so funny. I did hide and seek here at Focus with my boys.

Dave: Awesome.

Jim: Now, the problem at Focus, it is a large building.

Dave: Yes.

Jim: (laughing) And so when I said, “Go hide,” I could not find them.

Dave: Yeah. Well, it could be-

Jim: (laughing) It was like impossible. I started yelling-

Dave: It could be weeks.

Jim: … “Trent, Troy, (laughs) come on out,” after like an hour.

Dave: (laughs)

Jim: So they thought that was funny, so I totally-

Dave: Uh, they l- they love that. Yeah.

Jim: … totally relate to that. But I guess the reason I asked that question is you weren’t, you weren’t a straight arrow. You weren’t a perfect kid, obviously, an-

Dave: Oh, no, of cour-

Jim: … a-

Dave: … of course not. And I think what my parents drilled into me, the same thing that I’ve tried to drill into my kids, and that is that if they love Jesus, and they love the church, and they carry that into adulthood, then that might be the m- most impressive thing that I can ever put on a resume.

John: Yeah.

Dave: When God looks at me someday and hopefully says, “Well done, good and faithful servant,” uh, I think at the heart of it will be that my, my adult children and my grandchildren love the church and that they love Jesus, and that that is a priority to them. And if we have unreal expectations on them… You know, I’ll give an example. Last week, my wife came across a letter that our daughter Savannah had written when she was in ninth grade. And, uh, she went to a Christian school, and they had a dance that was coming up. And she wrote a three-page letter on why we should not come to the dance, and we should not be chaperones, and we should not even come, “Don’t you trust me?” You know, the whole thing. But h- she gave two reasons. She said, uh, “Dad, when you walk in the room, everybody knows you’re there. And all the word gets around. One, you’re tall.

Jim: (laughs)

Dave: And secondly, you’re the pastor. And everybody knows the pastor.” And she said, “Please don’t come. Please don’t come.” So there’s this cry of the hearts of a pastor’s kid that there is something different. There is this fishbowl existence, like it or not, and they get beaten up over that. And so as, as pastors and m- ministry leaders, guys and gals, moms and dads have to take that into account and figure out how it is that we can show them that our expectations are there because they’re a Christ follower.

Jim: And that, again, keeping your eye on the ball, that’s so important for a pastor and their family to, to keep their eyes on the right things. You know, so often, and we look at the data, pastor’s wives feel depressed.

Dave: Mm-hmm.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I mean, it’s as high as 50% of pastor’s wives-

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: … will feel depressed. I think in part because they’re also in that fishbowl. And they’re getting advice, unwanted advice at times, about their children and how they should teach ’em to behave differently.

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Uh, because the church feels, uh, they’re fair game. They can share these things and their observations with the pastor’s wife (laughing) about how deficient the family is to them. I mean, I-

Dave: A- and I think sometimes that depression-

Jim: Yeah.

Dave: … i- is an outgrowth of the fact that the husband is married to the church and not to her.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Wow.

Dave: Um-

Jim: Yeah.

Dave: … I’ll g- I’ll give an example. Well, uh, if I can tell it. Um, when I had two girls and didn’t have our son yet, I really struggled with workaholic tendencies. I still do. But, um, 65- to 70-hour weeks were the, the norm. And I just wouldn’t say no. I prided myself in not taking a day off. Uh, things that I’d be embarrassed to even say out loud right now as I, as I mention them. But, uh, there came a time where there was Father’s Day, I was preaching at a Father’s Day service. And the very first sermon, we had four services that morning, uh, we were kinda crammed into a place. And just before I got up to preach that day, a girl got up and she sang. And the song she sang was, “Slow Down Daddy.” And I’ll never forget it, because she sang the chorus four times, “Slow down, Daddy, don’t work so hard. We’re proud of our House, we have a big enough yard. Slow down, Daddy, we want you around. Daddy, please slow down.” And she sang that song and everybody clapped. And I got up to preach. Strode up there confidently and opened up my mouth, a- and nothing came out. And tears were just running down my face. And I looked over at, at Greg, our worship leader, and he grabbed the mic real quick and said, “Hey, let’s, let’s, let’s sing a chorus for a minute.” And he led them in a chorus. And, and then I composed myself and, and I preached. But I later found out that our children’s ministry director was out in that service seated next to her son. And when I got emotional, he said, “Mommy, why is Pastor Dave crying?” And she very candidly said, “Well, when the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin, sometimes you cry.” (laughs)

John: Hmm.

Jim: You know, Dave, I need to ask, uh, there are, uh, a lot of pastors that listen to the program, and you may be convicting some of them right now.

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So what can they do practically to get that prioritization right when they haven’t been?

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Because people are drawing on them all the time. And frankly, you know, within a church, you did a good job preaching on Sunday. People say, “Wow, Pastor, that was a great message.”

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Jim: It feels good. Uh, it’s hard to pull back, especially if you’re a workaholic.

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And you get your affirmation through how hard I’m working, and you don’t-

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: … take a day off, and all the things you just said. But if they’re listening to this and they’re going, “Wow, that’s me,” what can they do?

Dave: Talk to your spouse and say, “Okay, I’m, I’m starting to wonder if I’ve overstepped some boundaries here. And I can’t look at this rationally, but maybe you can. Do you feel that way? Is, i… What, what, what concessions do I need to make? Do I need to limit my outside speaking? Do I need to limit my involvement in, uh, doing stuff at, at church? Do I need to say that 50 hours is the maximum?” Uh, get the other person, your spouse’s opinion on that an- and their take on it. And then also try to build margin into your life. Um, my dad did a great job of when he had my ball schedules or practice schedule or, or any play that I was in, he blocked it out on his calendar and he protected it like a mad dog.

Jim: Yeah.

Dave: And, uh, I think that’s the starting point.

Jim: Uh, let me ask you another question about your kids and the parenting advice that you received. I think when you and Beth, your wife, uh, had your first child, uh, s- you got some good advice about fatherhood.

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Jim: What was it?

Dave: Yeah. I was, I was trying to pick the brain of another staff member and say, you know, “What’s the greatest way to be a really good father?” And, um, he said, “Well, the best way to be a, a good father is to be a good husband.” And that always stuck with me. You know, concentrate on this person that I’m supposed to, to love so unselfishly that I would lay down my life for her. And when my kids see that, they will be drawn to that.

Jim: Yep, it’s good.

John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, and our guest today is, uh, Pastor Dave Stone. And, uh, we’re kind of peeling back the layers a little bit to look into a pastor’s life and ultimately offer encouragement to pastors through a new, uh, podcast we have called Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. You can find out more about that and all the help we have for you as a pastor, uh, when you stop by our website. The link is at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And Dave, earlier Jim was mentioning how pastors do everything, but your advice is to try to dial into what you can do, the strength that you have.

Dave: Mm-hmm.

John: How does a small church pastor, a) find their gift, and then, b) uh, just do the m- the main things that they’re equipped to do?

Dave: Yeah, I think it’s a little more difficult in a, in a smaller church. But the key is to, to keep taking things off of your plate that other people can do. You know, business leaders will, will say this phrase, “Only do what only you can do.” Now, it’s a great business principle and a great leadership principle. It’s a little tougher to do in a small church because we do wear so many different hats. But what happens is, if you say, “Boy, I can, feel like I can do this at the level of an eight. But I could pour myself into someone, and in two months they could be doing that at, at a seven. And who knows, they might grow to a nine and do it better than I did.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Dave: But now it’s, you’re believing the priesthood of believers, you’re involving them.

John: Yes.

Dave: It’s so much better. You’re, you’re trying to s- get the church to where it will sustain without you. That’s part of what happens in ministry, and also in parenting as well.

John: Uh-huh.

Dave: You know, there’s this really cool passage in Psalm 127, uh, verses 4 and 5, says, “Children are like arrows-

John: Mm-hmm.

Dave: … uh, blessed is the one who has a quiver full of them.” And so God makes this comparison that, that a child is like an arrow. And back then an arrow had to be straightened, it had to be sharpened, it had to be aimed, and it had to be released. All four of those things had to happen for it to serve its purpose. And the same thing has to happen within the church. The pastor needs to say, “Okay, I’m gonna do those four things, and I’m gonna disciple people, and I’m gonna pour into people so that this place is sustained when I’m not here.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Dave: That’s what happens with discipleship. That’s what happens with succession among leaders. Because we’re not always going to be there, and so what’s gonna happen in the generations to come? And so we have to look to the future and make certain that we’re preparing for that.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Yeah. Dave, let me ask you, uh, y- you know, about 85% of churches are under 500, I think is a number that I’ve heard. I’m not sure if that’s exactly accurate-

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … but something close to that. Not many churches are the size of that church that you served at in Kentucky, which was huge. Ho- how many, t- over 20,000 people?

Dave: Yeah, 20-

Jim: Multiple sites, et cetera. But that’s, that’s not the norm. The norm is typically a small church, a- a- and the mega church is the standout church, right, where thousands of people-

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … typically go. So that pastor has to wear all the different hats that we talked about. And I think part of that is just managing, uh, all the ins and outs of that. So you’re a business person to a degree, you’re, uh, leading staff, you’re directing things. And we’re saying spend time with your family, prioritize your family. But that practical nature of, of getting the work done when it has to get done, that’s why you were working 70 hours a week.

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: Um, how does a person practically back off when those things need to get done? Do you just let ’em go?

Dave: Yeah.

John: Hmm.

Dave: You have to play to your strengths, and you have to realize that there are some things that you, you can’t get done. You can always be making another phone call. You can always be calling on one more person. There’s always one more hospital visit. There’s always one more funeral visit that you can make. And so you have to say, “Okay, these are my priorities.” And there are some things that slip through the cracks. And at times, I would just say to my church, I’d say, “Listen, I, I wish that I could do more than what I, I currently do.” But my (laughs), my dad taught me that there are four people who are more important than the hundreds or the thousands. And I know that might not make sense mathematically, but I, I wanna make certain that my family is intact and, and that they go to heaven and that they have a relationship with Jesus Christ. And I’m not gonna do that at the expense of, of me being a workaholic or trying to be spread too thin.

John: Hmm.

Jim: You know, Dave, one of the things that I recognize, and again, I’m part of a big church here at New Life with Brady Boyd. And it’s a, it’s a good-sized church, he’s got a good-sized budget, and they hire a lot of-

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … uh, assistant pastoral staff to do hospital visits and all those things. Most churches can’t do that. But we, I think a- as the congregation, we go to church expecting the pastor to fill us with knowledge and give us a good sermon, and we sing worship songs. But should we be noticing where that burnout could occur for our pastor so we could step up and say, “Hey, we can do hospital visits sometimes. You don’t have to do ’em all”? What can, what would really help a pastor-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … from the congregational perspective so that we’re not putting all the expectation on the pastor? Because they’re there to help us grow our faith, learn to be-

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: … disciples for Christ, but then we gotta go be the disciples rather than expecting the pastor to do it all.

Dave: Great. That’s a great question, Jim. I’m so glad you asked that, because there are things that a small- or a medium-sized church can do that really empowers the congregation. So let’s say on, um, preaching research, uh, there are a lot of people within any church, whether i- it’s 60 or it’s 300, you can say, “Hey, here’s some upcoming series that we have.” You can put a team together and say, “Would you be doing some advanced reading for me? If there’s something that you think would be helpful for me, would you send that on to me?” And you give them, ahead of time, what the sermon series are. Another thing would be for those of you who feel like you have the gift of mercy, or the gift of compassion, or of hospitality, um, if you have an interest in, in helping us out by going to make some hospital visits or some funeral home visits. And you start laying this out so that they get to take ownership of it. And what it does is it actually takes some of the pressure off of you, because now you’re not se… everything doesn’t end and begin with the pastor. But now you start to see that, “Oh, guess who visited me? You know, John Fuller came and visited me when, when I was in the hospital,” you know? Now, I can make a phone call to that person, but I can do that from my desk or in my car while I’m going someplace. And that can take three minutes of my time. But John went and saw him twice that week.

Jim: Yeah. Uh-

Dave: And that means something.

Jim: … let me ask you-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … the flip side of that, because the other thing in there is control and power. And human beings, we are given-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … to these things. I know that being president of Focus.

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, it’s just part of the responsibility. And then you start saying, “Well, nobody else can do it the way I do it.” I mean, that sounds so prideful. But it does roll through your head-

Dave: Oh, sure.

Jim: … because you would do it a certain way, and it’s been successful. That’s why you’re the senior pastor, or you’re the president, etc. So speak to that other side of that workaholism, as you described it, which is the person… and this, again, applies to everybody in every profession-

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … but the idea that it costs too much to relinquish that responsibility.

Dave: Yeah. I think you have to ask yourself the question, “Am I here for myself or am I here for Jesus Christ?” And that’s the ongoing question that a person has to ask. And let me just tell you, Christian leaders can get wrapped up in their own notoriety. And I, I, I see pastors, I have experienced this myself, constantly, uh, it’s a constant struggle for me, “Am I trying to build my kingdom or am I trying to build God’s kingdom?” And it’s a tug-o-war. That’s why I think Jesus says, “Take up your cross daily.”

Jim: Right.

Dave: Because I, I have to crucify my selfish and sinful desires, and I really have to get at my motives. Why am I doing that? Why, why did I go to that hospital? Why did I, I stay and listen to that person, uh, share their problem with me? Is it because I really genuinely cared, or is it because I wanted them to think highly of me?

John: Mm-hmm.

Dave: And I, I sometimes see pastors that will stay in their ministry longer than they should. They have outworn their effectiveness. But the longer and the larger the church grew, they are more apt to stay because they enjoy the notoriety more than they enjoy the responsibility.

Jim: Wow. Okay, so you had to go through a transition when you stepped down. What were those things that you-

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … recognized in yourself in that transition that applied to this? Uh, ’cause that’s the microscope moment, right?

Dave: (laughs)

Jim: Can I actually step away from this-

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: … when so many c- things are going right?

Dave: And I think that all of us, to some degree, we get our self-worth from, from our job, from our title. Uh, I think especially the male ego, I think that-

Jim: Sure.

Dave: … that, that we do.

Jim: Successes.

Dave: Exactly. So it’s like, oh, you know, I keep track of those things. We’re competitive. Uh, we, we want to excel in those things. But you have to ask yourself the question, “Okay, why am I here? I’m here to make His name famous, not my name famous.” And that is not easy, but that’s why we’re here.

Jim: Right.

Dave: And everything Satan comes at us with is, oh, you know, how many people said “Good sermon” today? How many people said, “Boy, that was, that was really good”? Or, “What a- what are they gonna do without you?” Well, you gotta, you gotta put that down the second somebody says that and say, “Hey, listen, let me tell you something. This church is gonna go on fine without me. In fact, its, its greatest days are ahead of us because we’re gonna build on the shoulders of all the different leaders that we’ve had in the past.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer said this, he said, “The righteous person lives for the next generation.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dave: And so we have to say, “Okay, this is not about me. This is about Him.” And we have to be willing to set the stage, disciple younger leaders, so that then they can lead effectively, and, and we can ride off and, and be in a supportive role. And we can be the cheerleader for those who have, have gone.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: It’s so good. And again, when we, right at the end here, turn it toward the Pastor to Pastor podcast that you’re able to do now with Focus on the Family, uh, what’s the goal? What are you trying to accomplish through that?

Dave: Yeah. Really, what we wanna do is we wanna challenge, inspire, and encourage pastors. Uh, you know, one thing that we’ve seen since COVID, we have lost so many pastors because every decision that they made, they ticked off two-thirds of the people in their church.

John: Mm-hmm.

Dave: And there are a lot of people who just, just left ministry. And we have not had the same number of people coming up in the ranks. And as a result of them, we, we have people who are leaving, people who are not motivated to come into ministry. And I think it’s because of loneliness. I think they don’t have a community.

Jim: Right.

Dave: And what I want do is what H.B. London did, I w- I wanna be a source of encouragement to them where they can get a weekly dose, you know, every single week they can get a weekly dose of encouragement, and inspiration, and challenge. And so if you’re listening to this, uh, I would encourage you to reach out to your pastor and say, “Hey, listen to Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone,” because I promise you it’s gonna encourage them. And they will be a better pastor because of the guests that I’ll have conversations with. And they will be inspired to, to be a better husband, better wife. They’ll be inspired to be a better parent and a better leader within their church.

Jim: And that’s so good. And that wraps it up really, really well.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, you know, so often at the end, John, we’re talking about support the ministry, but if I could change that script today and really say, after listening today, make sure that you send this to your pastor to help, uh, really to help that, uh, pastor, find a friend who they can talk to, at least, uh, listen to. And I’m sure you’re gonna be corresponding with some of these pastors as they begin to write or call.

Dave: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jim: So, Dave, we, again, so appreciate this effort. Thank you for your heart and what you’re accomplishing and, uh, what you’re continuing to do that Jesus has called you to do. And keeping Jesus first, you know, it’s so sad that the three things that trip us up in leadership, it’s pride, sex, and money, and it’s always those things. And you really will address all of those things and much, much more to try to help pastors do the job well and finish well.

John: Mm-hmm.

Dave: Yeah. We want ’em to know you are not alone.

Jim: Right. So let’s do that.

John: Mm-hmm. Well, we have an entire website devoted to helping pastors. It’s called The Focused Pastor. And, uh, you’ll also find a, a link for th- Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. Just stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast to find these and other helpful resources in your faith journey with Christ. As always, you can call us if you have questions. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459. And by the way, if you’re listening along in the app, we’ve made sharing this episode with your pastor very easy. Uh, there’s a share button right there. So, uh, if you don’t listen on the app, please do so. It’s an easy way to catch up on all the recent episodes and resources. Again, that’s the Focus on the Family mobile app. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back next time, as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.