Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Pam Farrel: What are you doing wrong, Bill? (laughs)

Bill Farrel: And I’m like, “And I’m not doing anything wrong.”

Pam: I’m like, “Well, I don’t feel like I’m doing anything wrong, either.”

Bill: And, and we were looking for where to place blame.

Pam: Yeah.

Bill: And so in the middle of this argument, I said, “Pam, it’s not you, it’s not me, it’s just life.”

John Fuller: That’s Bill Farrel and he and his wife Pam join us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thank you for being along. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: Hey, here’s a observation. Every marriage goes through some predictable and unavoidable transition. You ever think of that?

John: Uh-huh.

Jim: (laughs)

John: I have. (laughs) I’ve experienced that.

Jim: It’s just the nature of relationships. I think we have those expectations, we lay it out-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and then, then it all starts happening. It’s quite different than what we expected. And we’re all familiar with big transitions in marriage, like baby makes three and maybe another baby makes four-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … I can do that math. How about you?

John: Oh, you’re good.

Jim: For you and Dena, it was baby makes six, right?

John: We’re up to-

Jim: (laughs)

John: … a houseful, yeah.

Jim: And so, you know, that’s part of it. And there are other transitions along the way that will significantly impact your time, your energy, your relationship with each other as spouse, um, I, Jean and I, I think we’re, you know, we’ve got one out and the other ones got a foot out-

John: (laughs)

Jim: … and so we’re, you know, going through that whole thing like, “What do we do with the house now? Do we-”

John: Mm.

Jim: You know, all the big decisions. Are we going to stay there? I think we are. But, uh, you know, it just changes everything. It’s important to learn how to handle these transitions. I love the Farrels, our guests today, because they really give us such practical advice every time they come on-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and talk about the issue of marriage. And I’m looking forward to this discussion because I think it’ll apply to me. (laughs)

John: Yeah. I’m going to be listening very attentively because all of us are going to have some sort of transition in life, uh, as a couple and Bill and Pam have been, uh, doing life together for a long, long time, uh, they’ve been in marriage ministry for over 40 years and, uh, they founded and organization called Love-wise. They’re very popular conference speakers, uh, they’ve written a number of books, they’re always doing something.

Jim: (laughs)

John: Uh, one of the books that, one of the books that we’re going to be keying in on, uh, today it The 10 Best Decisions a Couple Can Make: Bringing Out the Best in Your Relationship and you can find out details about the Farrels and that book, uh, we’ve got the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Well, welcome to the couple that’s always doing something.

John: (laughs)

Pam: (laughs) Thank you.

Bill: That sounds exhausting.

Pam: We just hope it’s something I’m- well, not necessarily important, but yeah-

Jim: (laughs)

Pam: … something godly that He would honor that, yeah.

Bill: Sounds like a bumper sticker we should just put on our car. We’re always doing something.

Pam: (laughs)

Jim: Always doing something. It can feel that way sometimes, though, right?

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: I think I’ve kind of mastered the art of kick back. I enjoy a little relaxation.

Pam: That is good.

Jim: I don’t feel guilty about it at all. (laughs)

Pam: That is very good. We all should master that one.

Jim: Especially at this stage, right?

Pam: We’ve earned it.

Jim: Okay. Let me, let me jump into this opening question. Why do we call it the midlife crisis?

Pam: I know.

Jim: I don’t feel like we’ve hit a crisis yet. Is it comin’?

Pam: You know-

Jim: Is it around the corner?

Pam: That is one of Bill’s pet peeves. He’s like, “It doesn’t have to be a crisis.”

Jim: Oh, that-

Pam: (laughs)

Jim: Okay. So we’re in agreement on that.

Bill: Oh, yeah. It d- midlife crisis markets well.

Jim: Yeah.

Bill: You know, if you, uh, say, “Hey, today we’re going to talk about how to do normal life,” everybody goes, “Uh, is there something else on?”

Pam: (laughs)

Bill: But if you talk about the crisis, you talk about the difficulty, you talk about the, the disaster that’s coming, everybody clues in.

Pam: We do want to honor our mentor-

Bill: Yeah.

Pam: … Jim Conway, who, like, coined the term midlife crisis, uh, and it didn’t even exist, really before that. So it wasn’t-

Jim: Oh, that’s pretty good.

Pam: … important to talk about, you know?

Bill: And if you don’t know it’s coming-

Pam: It can be a crisis.

Bill: … it can become a crisis.

Jim: Okay. Let me ask you this question, uh, you know, when you look at husbands, how many of them see it as a crisis? And when you look at wives, how many of them see it as a crisis? As a rough percentage.

Pam: Yeah, yeah. I would say about half of them because-

Bill: Yeah.

Pam: … like Bill said, if you know that it’s coming, then you invest well and you make smart decisions and it doesn’t have to be a crisis. But most people just, like, fly through life and don’t really think through life-

John: Right.

Pam: … or prepare well. Like, if they’re not listening to Focus on the Family-

Jim: (laughs)

Pam: … they might not be ready. That’s what I’m saying.

Bill: … like that.

Bill: And everybody I know evaluates life at midlife.

Jim: Okay.

Pam: Yes.

Bill: So you will evaluate.

Pam: Yes.

Bill: If you know it’s coming and you’re used to evaluating your life-

Pam: It’s okay.

Bill: … you can navigate it. If you’re not used to it, you can throw your whole family topsy turvy and then everybody’s calling it a crisis.

John: So why does this transition present this either make it or break it marriage situation? And have you seen that happen? Like, people say, “Okay, we’re done. Kids are out.”

Bill: Yeah, I, I think it’s important when we talk about it that we separate out a women’s midlife and men’s midlife, ’cause they happen at different times.

Pam: Yeah.

John: Okay.

Pam: Yeah.

Bill: And we all know about the man’s midlife crisis ’cause it’s gotten lots of attention. We don’t talk much about the women’s struggle.

Pam: And, yeah, there’s actually two for the women. The first midlife evaluation is what I call it, it happens between 28 and 35ish, usually.

Jim: But that seems young.

Pam: It is really young. And that’s why it’s not really a midlife, but it surprises women and so that’s why it can become a crisis.

Jim: What’s that sound like?

Pam: And, s- what, what it sounds like is, “Okay. Why am I on the face of this Earth? Like, is it just to, like, change diapers and do dishes and just to have a paycheck and does anybody really appreciate me?” It sounds like a little bit of an attitude, sorry. Um, and it, it is a… can be an evaluation of, “What is meaning to me?” and “Why am I on the face of this Earth?” And if a woman seeks God during that stage, it is a wonderful growth opportunity. She’s like, “You know, God put me here. These are the gifts He gave me. This is how He wants me to use it. Woo hoo.” And it’s all good.

Jim: (laughs) Pam, let me, let me ask you this, um, th- it’s true for all of us when we’re confronted with biblical truth, sometimes we don’t like it.

Pam: Right.

Bill: (laughs)

Jim: You know?

Pam: What?

Jim: And we are selfish people and the Lord’s going, “Please come this way. Walk this way with me. It’ll be so much easier.” And we ignore it and we don’t accept it. We don’t accept that reflection in our own lives about where we’re at and our attitude, like you just described.

Pam: Right.

Jim: How do you, how do you just say, “Okay. I’ll relent. I’ll give in, Lord. I’ll do it your way”?

Pam: Yeah. Sometimes it’s longer and it’s more of a wrestling match, um, but sometimes it’s shorter because it seems like an invitation from the bride groom to the bride. Like, uh, you know, “Here. I have this dance for you. I have this wonderful ministry I want you to do. You’re so valuable. I wanna unleash your gifts to the world.” And that is a really po- if we can see God in a positive view and answer his invitation, then, um, life’s second half, from, like, 35 on, is an exciting adventure.

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: Let me read you a note that we got from a woman who was not happy in her marriage and it kind of, you know… I’m so grateful to the supporters of the ministry that we’re here for this person. And this is multiplied, uh, many times over w- with all of the response that we get, which is great. And we wanna hear from you ’cause we wanna help you get to a better place. But she said this: “I feel like I made a mistake by marrying the man I did. We’re not the same people we were when we got married. We want different things, have different morals and values.” That’d be a big flag.

Pam: Mm-hmm.

Jim: “And disagree on how to raise our kids. All we ever do anymore is fight. Am I supposed to continue on in this miserable relationship?”

Bill: Wow.

Jim: This is what we’re talking about.

Pam: Yeah, it is.

Jim: That’s a woman speaking desperation about her life-

Pam: Yeah.

Jim: … her companion, her husband. How does that strike you and what would you say to her?

Pam: Well, that is a really common, um, malady, I guess we would call it, for women and I think the red flag there is ‘I’m miserable’. And, no, God doesn’t want you to be miserable, but he doesn’t want you to just opt out either. And so there is a happy in between it’s called, like, counseling, going to an intensive. Focus on the Family has great intensives for marriage.

Jim: Yeah. Hope Restored. We’re there.

Pam: Yeah. And, um, so oftentimes it’s just a little bit of investment and, you know, the studies say that women, uh, when the kids launch, about 66 percent or more now are the ones that file for divorce, um, the hus-

Jim: That’s that graying of divorce that we talked about.

Pam: Y- it is, it is. The women see the misery and sometimes the men, like, have just their head in the sand and they’re willing to, like, g- go along and get along, um, but women wanna do something about it. And so the do something about it doesn’t have to be going to the lawyer, it can be going to counseling, even just for yourself.

Jim: Yeah. Let me ask you about that because it, you know, when I read that note, um, it’s almost like she’s looking for affirmation to get out.

Pam: Right.

Jim: You know, please tell me my feeling are right and that the best thing I can do is get out of this miserable relationship.

Bill: Yeah.

Pam: Yeah.

Jim: But that, a- again, I don’t know why, other than our sin nature, we find that easier to do than, you know, putting in a little work into, maybe a lot of work, into your relationship with your husband or wife and that actually will pay off far greater-

Pam: Oh, yeah.

Jim: … than a divorce and bringing all your luggage, your baggage, into the next relationship.

Pam: And financially. A divorce can wipe you out. And emotionally, w- for your kids, depending on the stage that they’re at, they can pay a big price. And so it’s the time to step back and not only think of yourself, but think of, like, the whole big picture. Um, one woman came to me when I was a director of women’s ministry, she’s like, “I just want out of here.” And it was the same kind of email, you know, only it was verbally given. And I said, “Okay, well, before you go, how about we do this. We pray and ask God if he’ll show you one positive thing about your spouse.” She’s like, “All right.” And, I said-

Jim: (laughs)

Pam: “I’ll meet you for coffee tomorrow and we’ll see what he says.” And so she did. She prayed and I, I ask her the next day and she’s like, “Well, he’s here.” I said, “All right. Let’s build on that.” So we brainstormed all, as many ways as we could creatively saying, “It’s nice to have you around. Oh, it’s nice that some things in life don’t change.” She’s walk by and shed see him sitting there with his, you know, newspaper again or the TV on, you know, sports again and, but she would just walk by and rub his shoulders or tap him on his leg or bring him just a word of affirmation. It’s nice to have you around. And an amazing thing happened. A few days later, he got up out of the chair, the Lay-Z-Boy he was always in, and he saw that she was reading her Bible, s- he’s like, “What a- what are you reading, honey?” And she said, “Well, the Psalms.” And she read it and he’s like, “Well, that’s pretty cool.” A- and, um, she said how I was helping her with this problem at work and, um, then the next Sunday, he was up dressed for church and she’s like, “Why are you here?” He said, “Well, it’s because you said it was nice f- for me to be around.” And he wanted to be around even when she went to church.

Jim: So that simple thing?

Pam: Yeah.

Bill: Wow.

Jim: Yeah, that’s amazing.

Pam: So just that simple, l- I call it the 100 to one principle. You take the one positive thing and you put 100 percent of your energy there and just see what God might do for you.

Jim: Huh.

Bill: And I would add to that the, the truth about marriage is every marriage is one breakthrough away from being a good relationship.

Jim: Huh.

Bill: Now, it often doesn’t feel that way, but the Bible tells us clearly that marriage and the gospel are reflections of each other. And the way the gospel works is you go from being lost to being found in a moment.

Pam: Mm-hmm.

Bill: You go from being God’s enemy to God’s friend in a moment. And marriage can do the same thing. But prior to that breakthrough, it can feel very intense because we lose the, uh, the language. Like, in marriage, the heart cries out and often when the heart’s crying out in one spouse, the other spouse is speaking responsibility.

Jim: Yeah.

Bill: You know, “I, I need you to take care of the kids. I need you to take care of this. I need you to take care of this because we have all this stuff to do. We don’t have time for your needs.” And the other person is crying out. Early on it’s the wife crying out, later on it’s the husband crying out. We miss the language and then we miss the breakthrough.

Jim: Huh. That is really insightful. I, I wanna come back to something you alluded to, Pam, especially for women, and that’s that safe place. I don’t wanna give the, uh, the sense that, you know, if you call Focus or you talk to a counselor that it’s all about straightening you out.

Pam: Right.

Jim: You need a safe place to express your concerns like that woman wrote and said-

Pam: Right. I was her safe place.

Jim: Yeah.

Pam: And then together we went before the Lord and he became her safe place, uh, once again. You know, she had to journey a bit, you know? So I w- was just a guide. I basically just felt like I held the flashlight, um, of God’s word and just kept giving her a piece at a time ’cause when you’re in emotional turmoil, sometimes you can’t handle a really huge amount of scripture, but one piece at a time, one day at a time.

Jim: Mm.

Bill: Well, in every relationship that’s intimate, it needs both energy and compassion. And if a couple’s upset with each other, they got a lot of energy working.

Jim: (laughs) Yes. It’s not working the same direction, though.

Bill: Right. If it can shift to, to being compassionate, you know, like, you can hear it even in this letter, there’s a cry out of, “I want us to be unified in the way we raise kids. I want us to be unified in our morals. I want us to be unified in decision making.” And if the two of them can discover compassion and build that together, all that energy starts working for them rather than against them.

John: Mm-hmm.

Pam: And that’s the way oftentimes we encourage in intensive because, um, when couples are in midlife, it’s super busy. Like, everything’s crashing down at the same time. Your kids are, like, tweens, teens, um, going to college and there’s all these expenses like cars and proms and graduations and, um, weddings, then eventually and you both might be at a crescendo at your career. And so, um, going to an intensive just three or four days gives you time to really listen to each other-

Jim: And think about it.

Pam: … and think about it and invest and learn something new skills and, yes.

Jim: Yeah, that’s good.

John: And if, uh, the idea of an intensive, uh, is something that seems to maybe be a path forward for you, we have Hope Restored here, Jim mentioned it, uh, we can tell you more, uh, about that and also about the book, uh, that we’re talking about, The 10 Best Decisions a Couple Can Make by Bill and Pam Farrel, uh, just give Focus on the Family a call. Our number is 800 the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Uh, Bill, let me turn to you, uh, Pam’s done a great job describing that woman, her frustrations, et cetera, and maybe as part of the response here, expectations. I mean, what you’re describing, like, “We’re not on the same page with moral values or raising the kids,” that suggests there is an expectation that may not have been expressed or expressed in a way that didn’t, uh, wasn’t heard. Um, and again, that’s part of growing together, right? We end up with these expectations. And husbands, the joke is, typically, we’re a little dense, you know, we don’t really, can’t read your mind and we don’t really know. Sometimes you’re saying it plainly and we still don’t get it, so, uh, in that regard, uh, Bill, maybe you can describe the husband that’s usually working a lot, heads down, he doesn’t look up for 20 years, (laughs) you know-

Pam: That’s right.

Jim: … he’s just going-

Bill: Right.

Jim: … and trying to provide and doing those things and then all of a sudden-

Bill: Well and there, there’s this-

Jim: Wow.

Bill: … great moment that happens in a man’s life-

Jim: (laughs)

Bill: … when he realizes, “My life and my family’s gonna cost me a small fortune.”

Jim: Yeah. (laughs)

Bill: And it kicks him into gear. And, as a man, you either go into, into production mode and say, “Okay. This is my family. If that’s what it takes, I’m gonna do it,” or you get mad at everybody you love.

Jim: I don’t mean to reduce this to brain chemistry-

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … but you mentioned it in the book-

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … about fight or flight.

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: There’s probably a component of that. When we feel overwhelmed, we’re looking at two doors, right?

Bill: Right.

Jim: The let’s get with it door, step up and go or let’s check out.

Bill: Let’s get out of here. Yeah. And a lot of guys do. They just, like, they look at it as too hard and they say, “I don’t have what it takes.” But if a man says, “Yeah, I got what it takes,” he will bury himself in responsibility.

Jim: You mentioned the male mentor and the significance of that. I- I’ve had, um, a mentor, Steve-

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and, uh, he’s been great. I probably have been talking with Steve regularly since 2005, so it’s been a long time.

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: And it’s been really helpful and he’s not the, the pushover type.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, he hits me between the eyes-

Bill: (laughs)

Jim: … when he needs to.

Pam: That’s good.

Jim: And he’s got this incredible ability to know when to do it.

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: Which, you know, uh, “Okay. Good idea, Steve. Good thought, Steve.” But speak to the importance of that.

Bill: Well, I was really aware as a young dad that, um, I, I need to get a mentor ’cause everything I’m facing’s brand new. And I didn’t have the kind of relationship with my dad where he filled me in or I could go talk to him, and so I, I realized, I, I need to get a mentor or I’m gonna make a big mistake. So I started meeting with Jim Conway, who was kind of a forerunner in this whole arena, and my goal was I wanna learn how to be a pastor and I wanna learn how to raise a family in a ministry context. And I figured Jim was a good option for that. And little did I know that he was gonna shake up the train to keep me seeing what was going on. ‘Cause I had a conversation with him one day and my question to him was, “How do I get Pam to cooperate with me more on decision making?”

Jim: (laughs) I love that thinking.

Bill: Yeah, ’cause we were, you know, we were in the press of life, we had our third child, I was, I was pastoring a church, the kids were busy, we were busy, stuff’s flying at us at light speed and I just figured if Pam was a little more cooperative-

Jim: On your page.

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: (laughs)

Bill: Then it would be easier.

Jim: (laughs) I think that’s true.

Bill: And Jim looked me in the eyes and said, “Do you need to control your wife?”

Jim: Mm. Good word.

Bill: And my first reaction was, “That’s a horrible response.”

Pam: (laughs)

Bill: ‘Cause I’m not trying to control my wife. And then I realized, actually, if I could control her, life would be easier ’cause I could stay in production mode so I need to take this seriously and I need to listen more to Pam and I need to, I need to be more cooperative with her so that we can stay productive.

Jim: Yeah.

Bill: But, but it’s a hard, I mean, it’s a hard thing ’cause a lot of times when I would stop and spend time with Pam, I was afraid I wasn’t gonna get stuff done. And if I don’t get stuff done, then I’m not gonna succeed. If I don’t succeed, I’m not as much of a man as I thought I was. And it becomes a big identity thing-

John: Hmm.

Bill: … for men.

Jim: Huh.

Bill: So men wanna work hard because it makes us feel better about ourselves and when we’re, when we’re stopping and we’re taking care of the family and we’re trusting God to give us the time back that we’re investing in the people we love, th- that’s not an easy road for men.

Pam: It’s walking by faith.

Bill: Yeah, we’d much rather just be Superman, work really hard, have everybody admire us and recognize what we’re doing. And as men, we need to take on the challenge that if we love our families, God will help us succeed in our careers. And it’s a big step of faith for men. Like, it’s easy to say-

Jim: That’s good. That’s a good word.

Bill: … it’s not easy to live.

Jim: Really.

Pam: And, you know, when you mentioned mentors, a- and both men and women should have mentors, somebody who’s just a little bit further on the road and we also encourage couples to have a couple mentor, you know-

Jim: Sure.

Pam: … that you can hang out together with-

Jim: I like that concept.

Pam: … them. Yeah.

Jim: Yeah.

Pam: And in, um, 10 Best Decisions a Couple Can Make, we, like, talk about how to find those, kind of, couple mentors, where both the husband and wife are available to build into your life and, um, for example, we look for a couple that has, have a life that we’d like to live.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Pam: You know, do they have the kind of character? Do they have the kind of life pace that you’re looking for? Well, how’d they get there? And you look for a couple that you might have something in common with so you can, you know, go golfing as you talk about your marriage or you can, you know, play pickleball nowadays, right?

Jim: That’s big.

Pam: Yeah, it’s very big.

John: (laughs)

Pam: And then look for a couple that’s, like, in your world somehow. Maybe in your church, in your neighborhood, um, in your family circle, and then look for a couple that, um, you admire their character, that there’s something in their character that you would like to learn, um, the relationship with God that you can learn from. And then, lastly, look for a couple that’s willing. Like, they have to be willing to spend some time with you. And the easiest way to find that out is just say, “Hey, can we have coffee together?” And ask them a few questions about their marriage and see if, where it goes. Like, “Would you like to have coffee next week? Would you like to have coffee once a month?” And maybe just, like, once a quarter do something fun together, you know, go on a double date.

Jim: Yeah, that’s really good.

Bill: A- and can I emphasize what Pam is saying? ‘Cause, for the younger couples that are listening, if you walk up to a couple and you ask them, “Would you mentor us?”

Pam: That’s a little intimidating. (laughs)

Bill: Most of them will probably say no.

Jim: Right.

Bill: Because they don’t feel like they’re qualified.

Jim: Right.

Bill: So if you can start soft. “Hey, can we have lunch together? Can we have coffee together? We have some questions we’d like to ask you and just learn from your experience.” Most couples will say yes to that. And then if they succeed at that, they’ll be willing to do it again. So, so set them up for success. Don’t, don’t intimidate them right upfront.

Jim: Yeah.

Pam: And then vice versa. If, um, you’re on the second half of life, um, don’t, don’t walk up to a young couple and say, “Uh, I think you really need some mentors and we’re it.”

John: (laughs)

Pam: That’s pretty intimidating. Instead, just say, “Hey, do you wanna stop by the house for lunch after church on Sunday?” Or, um, “Can we grab some coffee together?” And just start pouring into their life on a natural level.

John: Mm. And we’ve got details about marriage mentoring at our website. Greg and Erin Smalley are passionate about this and, uh, you’ll find details about that on the website.

Jim: Well let me, let me ask you this, the, you know, again, we lean into perfecting button-pushing.

Bill: (laughs)

Jim: Right? I- I- I-

Bill: Buttons must be pushed, Jim.

Jim: I don’t know why-

Bill: That’s why they’re there.

Jim: … we, we’re so good at this. And maybe it’s just me. I don’t know. No, everybody’s looking at me at the table like, “Okay, go ahead and spill the beans.”

Bill: (laughs)

Jim: But I, you become very perfecting- (laughs)

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: … of knowing just how to push that button-

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: … of your spouse.

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: It could be a verbal response or a look or a whatever and man, that well is deep.

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: You can go there a lot.

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: But to your point earlier-

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: … it’s like, zero, uh, reward.

Bill: Right.

Jim: But we keep doing it.

Bill: We keep doing it.

Pam: When you surrender-

Jim: Why do we do this?

Pam: … it’s so much better. Like, uh, toward the end of that year, we were just, like, at our wits end, we knelt down on our sofa, by our sofa and I prayed, “Lord, I’ve just been trying to follow your call, but if there’s something I’m not reading right, please, like, correct me, like, change me, um, because Bill’s not liking me right now.” And then Bill prayed.

Bill: Yeah. My, my request was, “God, I love this woman but I don’t like her right now and if something needs to change, y- if something needs to change in her, change it. Something needs to change in me, change it, ’cause we just can’t keep doing this anymore.”

Jim: That’s a wakeup call.

Pam: Yeah.

Jim: Jean said that to me a few years ago.

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: She goes, “I love you, I just don’t like you-

Bill: Yeah.

John: Hm.

Jim: … right now.”

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: And I was like, “How could you not like me?”

Pam: (laughs)

Bill: (laughs)

Jim: Not a very good response.

Pam: God didn’t-

Jim: You know.

Pam: … have, like, a big answer right away, um, but the next day, I was on campus and I, um, had to, like, stand up for my faith every day in this English class and I asked Bill to pray, uh, he had to be up on campus, um, filming, and so I said, “Would you pray when you walk by my classroom?”

Bill: A- and I was looking for a way to tell Pam that my heart had shifted in a way that was believable.

John: Hm.

Bill: ‘Cause again, I fought her for a year on this thing.

John: Yeah.

Bill: So if I went to her and went, “Uh, Pam, you know, I get it now. I’m kind of over it.”

Jim: You’re giving in.

Bill: It, it wouldn’t have been realistic-

Jim: Yeah.

Bill: … ’cause I fought so hard for a year. And I know Pam likes public attention, so the, the thought hit me, “Okay. I’m gonna be on campus. I’m just gonna interrupt her class.” So I bought a dozen roses, I walked into her classroom-

Pam: And the professor was teaching that romance was dead. It’s just an illusion-

Jim: Oh my goodness.

Pam: And Bill walks in with-

Jim: Timing.

Pam: … these roses, yes.

Bill: So I gave her a kiss, said I love you, and walked out the door.

Pam: And the professor’s like, “What’s going on here? Is it your birthday? Anniversary?” I’m like, “No.” He’s like, “Well, why’d he come in?” I said, “I think he just wanted me to know that he believes in me and he believes in the dreams that God has placed on my heart, like writing a book.” And, um, then all the women were like, “So, does he have a brother?”

Bill: (laughs)

Jim: (laughs)

Bill: But I would say if your wife doesn’t like public attention, this is not a good idea.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Yeah.

Bill: But it is Pam’s language. And I would say to everybody, though, your recovery should be as big as your resistance.

Pam: Yes.

Jim: Oh, wow.

Pam: Your apology should match it.

Bill: Because then it’s believable.

Jim: I like that.

Bill: And it draws your hearts to each other at that point.

Jim: Let me, at the very end here, let me ask this question. That, that spouse, could be husband or wife, is thinking ‘we’re done, uh, we just need to sign the papers, we can get it going’. What word of advice would you have? That’s a big one.

Bill: Yeah. I would say take one more step ’cause we’re not talking, here, about, you know, “I’m changing my car. I’m changing the, the color that I like to wear.”

Jim: It’s bigger than they realize.

Bill: We’re talking about a family.

Jim: Yeah.

Bill: We’re talking about kids and grandkids that are affected. We’re talking about generations that this impacts. It’s worth another try. And we don’t wanna be unrealistic. We know there’s some really tough situations out there. But there are a lot of situations that can be resolved with a few practical steps. And there’s so much help in our world today that there’s no reason not to take another step-

Jim: Yeah.

Bill: … before you create years and years of complication and frustration for a lot of people.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Pam: And I would agree and echo that in that instead of giving the lawyer all the money, uh, all your money, take that same money and go on a trip down memory lane. Go t- to the place that you first fell in love, go to the place that you fir- had your first date, go to the place you first kissed, go to the place where you honeymooned and honeymoon there again.

Jim: I’m ready. Let’s go.

Pam: And take a trip down memory lane.

Bill: (laughs)

Jim: I love that idea. And, uh, you know, it pleases me as we’re talking about this, and we didn’t talk ahead of time, but, uh, what you’ve laid out in the book is really reflected in what we’re doing here at Focus on the Family when you mention the mentor program. That is something that we’ve kicked off now. We’re hoping to get something like 50,000 mentors in churches to help and we can help train you, even. It’s not gonna be deep, but it’ll be a light training to help couples think, younger couples think about what they’re doing. Hope Restored. You know, a number of the couples coming to Hope Restored have signed those divorce papers and we’ve got an 80 percent post-two year, actually, 80-

Pam: That-

Jim: 81 percent-

Pam: … is fabulous.

Bill: Great.

Jim: … po- it’s incredible. I think it’s one of the best things for marriage recovery going on in the country.

Pam: I agree. That’s-

Jim: And we want more-

Pam: … it, it’s just amazing.

Jim: … churches involved because long-term, I’d love to see a significant reduction in Christian divorce rates, you know-

Bill: Yes.

Jim: … from 35ish percent down to-

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … what if we got down to 15 percent?

Pam: It’d be so nice.

Jim: Or less. Be a part of this. And then, of course, the great tools and resources, which, with the Farrel’s book, The 10 Best Decisions a Couple Can Make, which we’ll get to some of those, but it’s communication and things we’ve talked about today and we’ll continue tomorrow if you guys are willing to stick-

Bill: Love to.

Jim: … with us.

Pam: Sounds great.

Jim: But, uh, get in touch with us. Become a monthly sustainer of Focus on the Family, like John does with Dena and Jean and I do, uh, here at Focus. And we’ll send it to you, uh, any amount. 10, 15, 25 dollars is great, uh, we’re just trying to grow that number so that we have a predictable budget that we can do the things we need to do, like we’ve just talked about. And, uh, if you can do that, we’ll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thank you for being a part of the ministry.

John: Yeah. Join the support team today as you can, either a monthly pledge, as, uh, Jim suggested, or if you can’t commit to that, we can send that book to you for a one-time gift of any amount as well. Again, the title, The 10 Best Decisions a Couple Can Make. It’s sure to benefit your marriage no matter what season you’re in. So give us a call. 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Or donate and get a copy of that book at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back tomorrow as we continue the conversation with the Farrels and, once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.