Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Pam Farrel: … if you know that it’s coming, then you invest well and you make smart decisions and it doesn’t have to be a crisis. But most people just, like, fly through life and don’t really think through life or prepare well. Like, if they’re not listening to Focus on the Family-

Jim: (laughs)

Pam: … they might not be ready.

Jim Daly: We like that.

Pam: That’s what I’m saying.

Bill Farrel: And everybody I know evaluates life at midlife.

Jim: Okay.

Pam: Yes.

Bill: So you will evaluate.

Pam: Yes.

John Fuller: That’s Bill and Pam Farrel and they join us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.

Jim: John, I so appreciated what Bill and Pam had to say last time, talking about midlife transitions in marriage. So if you’re married, I’m sure you’re leaning in going, “Yeah, we’re in it,” because almost every couple go through something-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … if not every so many years, you know? You have your first child, you, then have maybe two, three, four, who knows, and then they grow up and they leave the house and now you’ve got another transition-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and, of course, teen years, and then you get into taking care of aging parents. We’re gonna talk about all that today-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … with our special guests. And they’ve written a great book, The 10 Best Decisions a Couple Can Make: Bring Out the Best in Your Relationship and every married couple says, “Amen.”

Pam: (laughs)

John: Yeah, get a copy of the book and learn more about Bill and Pam, uh, at our website and that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: And, John, one of the easiest ways for people to pick up, if they didn’t hear last time, is, uh, listening to the app.

John: Our mobile app is a great one.

Jim: Yeah.

John: It’s got all sorts of great resources.

Jim: It really does and that’s the way I’m listening mostly now, so-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … just a good reminder. Uh, Pam and Bill, welcome back.

Pam: Thank you.

Bill: Thank you.

Pam: It’s great to be here.

John: Okay. Let me just hit this, ’cause we really didn’t hit it last time, y- you’re saying ten best decisions. Just describe i- in the book-

Pam: (laughs)

John: … I mean, what are the one word adjectives for some of those ten?

Bill: Well, the first thing I would say is the reason why decisions are so important is that our emotions follow our decisions. So couples who are good at making decisions together, they tend to harness the emotional energy of their relationship and couples who are not good at deciding together, they create emotional chaos in their home.

John: Boy, that’s so well put.

Bill: Yeah.

John: That’s exactly right.

Bill: And so, so couples who learn to d- make decisions together keep themselves bonded emotionally.

Pam: So that’s really the first decision. Decide to decide-

Bill: Yeah.

Pam: … not just let life happen to you. And then decide to be positive. You can focus on the negative or you can focus on the positive of your mate and your kids and if you focus on the positive, um, then you’re gonna get more enjoyment out of your relationship and, you know, communicate with kindness, uh, decide-

Bill: ‘Cause you know how it is-

Pam: … to fight fair.

Bill: … when responsibility hits, we start getting harsh in our communication.

Jim: Huh. Interesting.

Bill: Y- y- you said you would do this, you didn’t do it. I need you to do this. I need you to follow through. And now we’re fighting over things that we love rather than working together.

Jim: Wow. Interesting.

Pam: And decide that the we is greater than the me.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Yeah. Turn the ‘M’ upside down.

Pam: Mm-hmm.

Bill: (laughs)

Pam: I like that.

Jim: I never thought about that ’til right now.

Pam: It’s good.

Jim: (laughs)

Pam: That’s a meme.

Jim: (laughs)

Bill: (laughs)

Jim: Hey, um, w- we did talk about, uh, the midlife crisis and the formation of that term, even, was a friend of yours-

Pam: Right, Jim Conway.

Jim: … that, uh, was a mentor, right?

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, uh, talking about those opportunities for improvement. You also use a term in the book and you call it ‘going berserk’. (laughs) I kind of like that one more.

Pam: Right, right, right.

Jim: It seems more colorful.

Pam: (laughs)

Bill: Right.

Jim: Yeah, when you go berserk in these situations-

Pam: It-

Jim: … a- what do you mean by that?

Pam: It can be the midlife crush, that’s another way to put it, is, you know, a lot of times, everything just comes to a crescendo and you’ve got teens and tweens and college students and you’re releasing them and you’re paying for cars and kids and proms and then your weddings and then there’s grandkids and there’s just a lot. You’re, um-

Jim: That’s a long list.

Bill: Right.

Pam: Yeah, it is a long list.

Bill: And-

Pam: Plus your careers are, like, at their peak and everybody wants something from you and-

Bill: Right.

Pam: Like, in, in the book, we talk about a man feels like a little bit like a vending machine. Everybody, you just want something from him-

Bill: Right.

Pam: … at all times.

Bill: Right. I want your money, I want your advice, I want your time, I want your skills, I want your-

Pam: I want your keys.

Bill: … ability, I want your ti- I mean, it just goes on and on. And while all that’s happening, as men, our bodies are changing and we’re not used to it.

Jim: (laughs)

Bill: Like, as men, we go through puberty and we get, you know, this big testosterone rush and we power through life for decades. And then we wake up one day and the testosterone level starts to drop-

Jim: We’re a little tired.

Bill: … and we feel tired-

Jim: (laughs)

Bill: … and, you know, we don’t have as much hair as we used to have and we, we just don’t have the oomph that we used to have but more is being demanded of us. And I know the thing I wish somebody had told me earlier on is that every ten years an adult doubles his responsibility level.

Pam: His or her responsibility-

Bill: So at 30, you have twice what you had at 20, at 40, you have four times what you had at 20.

John: Hm.

Bill: But we, it, it snuck up on us.

Jim: Hm.

Bill: So life is now just this berserk, like, we need to go, need to go, need to go, need to do, need to do, need to do, need to do, I need this, I need this, I need this, I need this. And if you have teenagers in the home, they’re not very complementary. So they’re criticizing you as you’re working really hard.

Jim: Duh.

Bill: Your wife- (laughs) Yeah, exactly.

Jim: (laughs)

Bill: Your wife is relying on you and wants you just to man up. And as a man, you’re starting to ask the question, “Who cares about me?” And the answer tends to come back, “Well, actually, nobody.”

Jim: Well, that, that shoe goes on either foot.

Pam: It can.

Jim: The husband or the wives, right?

Pam: Exactly. And it’s-

Jim: I mean, who cares about me? Mom’s feeling that way too.

Pam: Right because your family demands a lot at this stage of life and so you, you can’t be all about yourself. It’s just impossible. And, um, the other thing that’s happening to a woman at this same stage is the perimenopause and menopause-

Jim: Let’s just throw that in.

Pam: Right.

Bill: Yeah, ’cause that’s fun.

Jim: (laughs) I’m glad you said that, Pam.

Bill: (laughs)

Pam: When I wrote, um, 10 Secrets of Living Strong, Smart, and Savvy, it’s all about what you need as a midlife woman and beyond, in life’s second half. It’s basically the emergency kit for life’s second half. There’s over 100 symptoms.

Jim: Well, I was gonna say, what do you do to focus on the right things and not the wrong things? ‘Cause it’s all coming at you and that’s easy-

Bill: Right.

Jim: … to steal our focus about, “Okay, this is what we gotta do with the kids” and, “You gotta talk to them tomorrow” and, “This is what you need to say” and, “By the way, I gotta be with my parents tomorrow ’cause I gotta take them to a doctor’s appointment” and, “I don’t think they’ve made their house payment this year” and, you know.

Pam: Yeah. And you start blaming each other, like, “It’s your fault. It’s your fault.” One day we were standing in the bedroom and I’m like, “Ah, life is, like, so stressful. What are you doing wrong, Bill?” (laughs)

Bill: And I’m like, “I’m not doing anything wrong.”

Pam: I’m like, “Well, I don’t feel like I’m doing anything wrong either.”

Bill: And, and we were looking for where to place blame.

Pam: Yeah.

Bill: And so in the middle of this argument, I said, “Pam, it’s not you, it’s not me, it’s just life.”

Pam: And then I realized all that life was demanding of us and I’m like, “You are so right. It’s not you, it’s not me, it’s just life.”

Bill: But it’s not what we wanna do. What we wanna say is it’s not me and it’s not life, it’s just you.

Pam: You. (laughs)

Bill: And we wanna put blame somewhere.

Jim: Right, and, yeah…

Bill: If we can just get real about this and say, “You know what? At some point, life does get overwhelming.”

Pam: And so we use it as a code word when we get, either one of us get irritated or overwhelmed, we say, “Oh, just life.”

Bill: And I know this is not very, um, like, modern biblical thinking, but this time of life, your goal is survival.

Jim: (laughs)

Pam: Like-

Jim: There’s an expectation.

Bill: Right, like, if you get to your 50th birthday and you’re, you’re standing upright, you’re in your right mind, and your relationships are intact, you have won.

Pam: You have won.

Bill: And we put this expectat- you, you gotta walk in victory, you’re more than a conqueror, you have to be always joyful, always peaceful, always focused. And at some point in life, if you survive it, you’re doing fantastic.

John: Mm.

Jim: That’s-

Pam: Above all else, stand-

Jim: Yeah.

Pam: … is in Ephesians.

Bill: Right.

Jim: The other, the other aspect of that that I like is it puts, it puts the focus on the marriage as being a team.

Bill: Yeah.

Pam: Yes.

Jim: We’re working together, we’re gonna have this, you know, onslaught of situations, but you need to be communicating and-

Bill: Yes.

Jim: … you’ve mentioned that, but I, I guess I wanna reinforce that. When you are, you know, we’re all in the marriage business, so it-

Bill: Right.

Jim: … may come a little easier because this is what we do every day together, um-

Bill: But, but I would say that y- you don’t just need to communicate during this time, you need to be on mission together.

Pam: And so-

Jim: Well, but at, that recognition, though, of anticipating together what that next-

Bill: Right.

Jim: … phase might look like. I love that idea.

Pam: Yes.

Bill: Right.

Jim: I don’t know that Jean and I have done that very effectively. To say, “Okay. Here, we’re leaving this phase and we’re going into this phase. So let’s brace ourselves.”

Bill: Right.

Pam: Yeah. (laughs)

Bill: Well, and, like, one of the smartest things that, at looking back, Pam and I did is when our kids became teenagers, we changed the way we parent. And we stopped saying no to our kids and we replaced it with ‘tell me why I should say yes’.

Pam: ‘Cause we’re rolling the ball into their court, making them be responsible.

Bill: And getting our kids involved with that to where they had to help with the decision making… ‘Cause sometimes going into it, we didn’t know what the answer was.

Jim: Huh.

Bill: You know, “Mom and Dad, can we do this?” “Well, I don’t know what that is so the answer’s no.” (laughs) Which, of course, is gonna bring a reaction. But by getting our kids involved two things happen. One, it gave us time to process, you know, how do we wanna respond to this? And it forced our kids to be more mature.

Pam: And so they followed Jesus and they, or, stepped up to the plate and they were responsible. And it took a lot of falling down over stupid things, you know. Sometimes, uh, your teens will make mistakes and it’s, it’s okay because that’s how they learn to take responsibility for their own life. And that’s really the goal. And so you’re… I think part of the reason that God has teens be a little bit irritating at times is you have to release them to go to college or be young adults and live on their own and it would be so devastating if they’re just so lovely and perfect all the time. (laughs)

Bill: Right.

Pam: So you’re like, “Yeah. Go. We’re ready.” (laughs)

Jim: Well, I’ll tell you, the insight I’ve learned, Jean and I both, t- the more you try to control them as teens, the deeper that problem-

Pam: Yes.

Jim: … will become.

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: So you’ve-

Pam: Indeed.

Jim: … got to learn how to let go.

Bill: Right. And teenagers want you to decide so they can blame you if it doesn’t work.

Jim: Yeah.

Bill: ‘Cause they’re, you know, they’re on a rollercoaster ride and they don’t wanna blame themselves, they wanna blame you.

Jim: So they’re sinners too?

Bill: They are.

Pam: (laughs)

Jim: Hey, let me ask you, uh, because you mentioned this in the book, this, this idea of creating an oasis.

Pam: Yes.

Jim: (laughs) You know, I’m hearing all this, I’m going, “Let’s get to the oasis part.”

Bill: (laughs)

Pam: Yes, yeah.

Jim: So wha- what, what does that look like?

Pam: You know, it can be as simple as, like, making your master bedroom, like, a place you want to be-

Jim: Oh.

Pam: … together so you have a place to escape from the business of, like, the rest of the household. Um, but Bill and I also, it’s a part of your schedule. And so we always take a sunset, sunset sail, or prayer walk, together and, um, we’ve learned that, you know, listen to, like, a Christian comedian on the way out-

Jim: Oh, that’s good.

Pam: … and laugh together and then on the way back, you know, how can I pray for you? What’s going on in our life? And we would pray together. And doing that every day keeps you connected and makes it so that the bricks don’t build up, the little foxes, as, you know, Song of Solomon talks about. We, you deal with those little foxes, uh, every day through prayer together and it bonds you. Prayer is, like, a really, a winner thing, especially a prayer walk because you get closer to God, closer to your spouse, and thinner all at the same time-

Jim: (laughs)

Pam: … and at midlife, that’s a, that’s a win, man, to get thinner.

Jim: Yeah. Bill, let me ask you, ’cause we went by that pretty quickly, the little foxes.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That is, uh, a reference to scripture. What’s that fuller scripture say?

Bill: So i- in Song of Solomon in chapter two, Solomon and his wife are taking a walk around her family’s farm-

Jim: Yeah.

Bill: … and they pass a vineyard that h- has a vine that’s turning brown and wilting. And the reason why that would happen is they had burrowing animals back there that they referred to as little foxes. We would probably refer to them as gophers or moles. They would burrow down, eat away at the roots of a, a vineyard and a vine that should be flourishing is now deteriorating. And she uses a reference is every human relationship there’s obstacles. There are these little obstacles that work there way in and they eat away at the roots of our love for each other. It could be attitudes, it could be bad habits, it could be things that we say, um, you mentioned last, uh, session about pushing buttons. We just get in the habit of doing all those things. And if we’re diligent to remove those when we see them, relationships tend to develop ’cause humans-

Pam: They flourish.

Jim: There’ll be fruit on the vine.

Bill: … humans wanna be connected to each other.

Jim: Yeah.

John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and today our guests are Bill and Pam Farrel and they have so much wisdom about marriage, uh, they’ve captured a lot of it in this little book, The 10 Best Decisions a Couple Can Make: Bring Out the Best in Your Relationship. Find out more about the Farrel’s and, uh, get a copy of this great book when you donate at our website. We’ve got the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Let, let me turn a little corner, here, uh, you know, at this age, you tend to begin, (laughs) you know, whatever that age is-

Pam: (laughs)

Bill: This age.

Jim: I’m gonna leave it nebulous.

Bill: (laughs)

Pam: Women of a certain age.

Jim: But you tend to make more, uh, stops at the doctor to say, “This isn’t working right. What can we do to fix this?” And, “Boy, this thing’s not working right,” uh, describe that moment in our lives when all of a sudden, he’s on speed dial.

Pam: Yeah. We were, um, taking a walk one day and, um, I had just noticed, like, all of the pressure women were under at midlife and I’d started a group in our church, Bill was pastor, and, um, called Season Sisters.

Jim: (laughs) Great names for things.

Pam: Yeah. It was fun. And so we gathered together because we thought the rest of life can be the best of life. And, um, so Bill and I were on this prayer walk and I’m like, “Isn’t it great? You know, Men are Like Waffles, Like Spaghetti is on the best-seller list and our kids are teenagers, but they’re making good choices, and you’re pastoring the largest church in town, and we just moved into this new building. I feel like our life is a beautiful hand crocheted afghan.” And then, it’s as if somebody grabbed ahold of one string on the afghan and began to unravel our life as we knew it. And how it hit was we were on a media tour like this-

Bill: Right.

Pam: … and Bill was not feeling well, so we went to the doctor.

Bill: I was pretty sure I had a sinus infection, so I went to go see the doctor and at the, at the visit, he said, “How long have you had high blood pressure?”

Jim: (laughs)

Bill: I said, “I, I don’t have high blood pressure.” He said, “You do today.”

Pam: Yeah.

Bill: And that got my attention ’cause it runs in my family.

Jim: Oh, okay.

Bill: My grandfather died at 47-

Jim: Oh, wow.

Bill: … complications to high blood pressure. My dad had a stroke at 48-

Jim: Okay.

Pam: Left him paralyzed-

Bill: … because of high blood pressure.

Pam: … half his body.

Jim: Wow.

Bill: He lived to be 92, but the second half of his life was very different than the first half. So when this became a reality of my life, it, I kind of panicked. And at first, I said, “Well, I’ll go see my doctor when I get home. We’ll fix this.” ‘Cause that’s what we do, right?

Jim: Right. (laughs)

Bill: We just fix this.

Jim: I love the-

Pam: And so they-

Jim: … the look on your face. I can relate to.

Pam: So the doctor said to Bill that Christmas when we went, I went with him to that appointment, and he said, “Bill, you’re a people helper and you have been burning the candle at both ends. You’re a full-time pastor, full-time writer, speaker, and, um, your body is telling you what.” If you, like, what would you tell somebody if they came into your office with these, you know, out of control blood pressure issues and Bill said-

Bill: And I reluctantly said some, some significant life adjustments are in order.

Pam: And so Bill resigned his senior pastorate, which was very hard-

Jim: Wow.

Pam: … for a guy and b- and he did that because, um, we looked at our life and there’s very few couples who can minister together. And we’ve always believed you should do what is unique to you, so together we decided that we would, you know, launch full-time into writing and speaking as our full-time gig. And then, when you time everything out in midlife, it can really hit. And how it hit in our life is Bill resigned and then right after that, there’s this little snapshot. One son was hit in a football game, had a concussion and a knee injury might end that senior son’s, uh, ability at a college scholarship. The next night, our junior college son got hit in a football game, shoulder injury, quarterback, might end his opportunities. We’re down to one income. We need college scholarships. And then the third day, I was away, um, speaking, ’cause we needed groceries, and I got a phone call from my sister-in-law that my 40-year-old brother had just had a heart attack, could I come take care of their kids? You know, other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how’d you like the theater? You know, who do you save first?

Jim: Right.

John: Wow.

Pam: So something on my face must’ve shown the stress and so my friends would say, “How you doing?” And I started, um, I, like, “I don’t know how to answer this, God.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Pam: Like, too depressing, like, um, so I said, the Lord said, “What kind of person do you want to be?” And I said, “I wanna be the kind of person that can choose joy no matter what life sends your way. ‘Cause the joy of the Lord is our strength. So I choose you, Jesus, I choose joy.” So I started answering them, “Choosing joy,” when they would say, “How you doing?” And what Bill and I discovered is that joy really is a strength to your life.

Jim: Huh.

Pam: The Bible is, like, true. How ’bout that? Yeah.

Bill: But we also learned you have to choose it-

Pam: Yep. It’s a decision.

Bill: … ’cause life doesn’t always set the table real well for it.

Pam: Yeah.

Jim: Well, and t- the phrase that’s going through my head is ‘joy is a decision’.

Pam: It is.

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: But does that sound like you’re avoiding something?

Pam: That, you know, people ask me that. But it’s actually very real and, um, so it is, s- a series of choices. Like, joy, um, I wrote a whole book, like, uh Discovering Joy in Philippians, and so, uh, Philippians is full of how do you choose joy? And joy is proactive. Like, make a list of things that always give you joy and then put one of those every day so you have a joy moment.

Jim: Well, if you think about it, you know, Paul’s in prison-

Pam: Right.

Jim: … and he’s-

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: … basically reflecting that, you know?

Bill: And, and joy’s-

Jim: Don’t let your circumstances take ahold of you.

Pam: Exactly.

Bill: Right. And joy’s different than being happy.

Jim: Yeah.

Pam: It’s deeper.

Jim: Describe that difference.

Bill: We weren’t always happy during this, like, there were some tough circumstances, there were some difficult things we had to work through. The joy comes from knowing God’s gonna bring something out of this that’s worthwhile.

Pam: Right.

Bill: A- and the things we value most in life are, come through the adversity that we overcome.

Pam: Together, especially.

Bill: Like, that’s what sports is all about. Sports is about volunteering to go through adversity so you can win. And in life, the things you overcome together are, is what adds the most value to your life. And a life that’s too easy, people get bored with. So that’s where the joy came from for us, is yes, this is difficult, but we’re gonna overcome it together and we’re gonna find out what God’s gonna raise out of it.

Pam: And, you know, God did, like, some amazing things, you know, Dr. David Jeremiah called Bill and said, “Hey, can you, um, check out our small group ministry and design a small group ministry?” And then he hired Bill to do that for four years. So God kind of stabilized our life and bless us there, which is good that we had that little oasis as we released our last son right about the time that Bill’s parents needed caregiving.

John: Mm.

Pam: Yeah.

Jim: (laughs)

Bill: And all three of our kids did compete at college-

Pam: They all got scholarships.

Bill: … on scholarships.

Jim: Oh, wow.

Bill: So God, God, God-

Pam: A little miracle, there.

Bill: Yeah, He provided through all of it and He, He raised our compassion level. You know, when you talk about difficulties of life in theory, it sounds different than when you speak from your experience.

Jim: Mm.

Bill: And we have more compassion, we have more insight because of what we’ve been through than we would’ve if we just read it in a book.

Jim: Yeah.

Pam: And it really helped as we stepped into that caregiving role. Like, one day Bill had driven back and forth and back and forth across Los Angeles taking care of his folks and I’m trying to hold up our life and Bill’s trying to hold up his parents’ lives and he was just exhausted, um, up at midnight and I said, “Hon, do we need to move? ‘Cause it looks like, you know, tak- keeping your parents alive is killing you.” We’re back and, you know, risking your health. And, um, he’s like, “I’m so tired I can’t even think about it. And the next day, he did come to me, though, and he said-

Bill: Well, and, and the, the backdrop to this is my parents were not easy. Like, when I, growing up, I did not grow up in a strong, healthy, highly encouraging home.

Jim: Right.

Bill: I lived in a tough home. And when I realized God was asking me to start care taking my parents, my first reaction was, “God, you can’t ask me to do this. It was too hard growing up there. You can’t ask me to go back.”

Jim: That’s exactly where He’s gonna take you.

Bill: (laughs)

Pam: Right.

Jim: I’m smiling ’cause I know.

Pam: It is. Yeah.

Bill: And then I’m asking, “How am I gonna tell Pam about this?” Like, moving close to my parents is not gonna be good for our marriage. So I started praying, “God, how are we gonna do this?” And one of the things I know about Pam that you wouldn’t necessarily is Pam loves the water. She’s-

Pam: I’m like half mermaid.

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: (laughs)

Bill: And so I got the idea, “Pam, what do you think about moving onto a boat for this season of our life?”

Pam: And, no kidding, I said, “Hashtag crazy fun midlife adventure. Let’s do it.”

Bill: And I knew there was a marina about 20 miles from my parents’ house that has a pool and a jacuzzi.

John: (laughs)

Jim: (laughs) You already did the research.

Bill: I did.

Pam: And a kayak, we kayaked to get our mail, so-

Jim: Let me ask you about, uh, conflict in every marriage, uh, and you say, “All great relationships are made up of two committed forgivers.”

Bill: Yeah.

Pam: Yes.

Jim: I like that. Speak to that, committed forgivers.

Bill: So, every marriage, if, if you’re fully involved in your marriage, you will have conflict because you married somebody who has what you don’t have. So Pam has all the creativity that our family needs, she has the spontaneity that our family needs-

Jim: All those frustrating things.

Bill: … she has, you know, she has, like, the social mandate that our family needs, which, during easy times, that’s really fun, but when the pressure’s on, those things become interruptions. So if you’re a normal couple, you are going to have conflict. And at times you blurt out things you shouldn’t say, you do things that are not helpful to the relationship, and you may even bring baggage from your past and dump it on your spouse. And if you don’t know how to forgive all of that when it happens, then you just carry grudges. And the more grudges you carry, the heavier the load gets and if the load gets heavy enough, you’re gonna think it’s hopeless. And Colossians 3:13 is really fascinating-

Jim: Which says…

Bill: Which says, “Bear with one another and forgive whatever grievances you have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.” And when I read that passage, I went, “We’re supposed to forgive everybody for everything.” And that was a real challenge for Pam and I ’cause when, when we first read that, uh, verse, we thought, “I’ve got a list of people that I don’t think really need, like, deserve forgiveness.”

Jim: (laughs)

Bill: ‘Cause what they’ve done is really bad.

Jim: Right.

Pam: And I’m the firstborn daughter of a alcoholic dad, lot of domestic violence in my home, so there’s a list on my side.

Jim: Yeah.

Bill: So I started asking, “Well, how do we do this?” Because I didn’t, I agree, okay, I need to forgive. I need to forgive my mom first. I’m gonna have to forgive Pam along the way ’cause she’s as imperfect as I am. She’s gonna have to forgive me along the way. So how do we do this? And I took the gospel of Jesus Christ. I said, “If we apply that to interpersonal relationships, what would it look like?” And it turned into six statements of forgiveness that have turned into a working definition for us. So anytime I need to forgive Pam or anybody else, I work through these six statements-

Jim: Huh.

Bill: … and it helps, it, j- puts handles on it. And very quickly those statements are I forgive, and I name the person, for, whatever it is that they’ve done.

Jim: So real specific.

Bill: Real specific ’cause, like, I don’t forgive Pam for being spontaneous ’cause that’s too big and broad.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Bill: But the decision she just made to spend money that we didn’t talk about, I can forgive her for that specific thing. And then I admit that what happened was wrong ’cause if it isn’t something that’s wrong, forgiveness isn’t the answer.

Pam: Right. It’s just your bad attitude.

Bill: And sometimes we’re in conflict over attitudes and we just need to, we just need to grow up.

Pam: And the Bible’s like a plum line from Heaven and God will show us whether this is an offense to forgive or whether it’s an attitude that He can help adjust in our life.

Jim: Yeah.

Bill: The third is I don’t expect this person to make up for what he or she has done ’cause if you expect them to make up for it, you’re putting forgiveness on hold until they take action and it’ll roll around in your heart and p- produce bitterness. Now, to make things right, there’s gonna have to be some movement, but for me to forgive, they don’t have to do anything. And the fourth one is I won’t define this person by what he or she has done because we too often use people’s mistakes to define who they are-

Jim: Well, especially spouses. (laughs)

Bill: Yeah. And we turn them into monsters or we turn them into very unattractive people rather than just let them be people. And, and the way Jesus defines all of us is we’re all in desperate need of God’s grace. If you don’t know Jesus as your personal savior, you desperately need His grace for eternal life and if you do know Jesus, you desperately need His grace for everyday living. And anybody who gets away from the grace of God does ugly things. So we wanna define people the way God defines people.

Jim: Hm.

Bill: And then I won’t manipulate this person with what he or she has done. And, you know, in marriage, manipulation is just, it kills the relationship.

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Bill: And so choosing not to manipulate is part of the forgiveness process. And I think the most important statement is I will not allow what’s happened to stop my personal growth. You know, second Peter 3:18 says, “Grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ,” and bitterness stunts growth. So people who don’t forgive, they, they become less mature-

Jim: Hm. Isn’t that interesting.

Bill: … and then life overwhelms them because they’re not as mature as they could be.

Jim: All the way back to the vine.

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: Yeah? Those little foxes are-

Bill: Exactly.

Jim: … eating away at the roots and that-

Bill: Exactly.

Jim: … that matters in your marriage and your personal growth in Christ.

Bill: Yeah. And couples who are good at forgiving tend to stay in love-

Jim: Hm.

Bill: … because we both recognize we’re imperfect and if we have a way of forgiving, we can be imperfect and still be a team.

Jim: Well, you’ve hit the nail on the head today. I mean, again, last time, this time-

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: This is great content. The 10 Best Decisions a Couple Can Make: Bring Out the Best in Your Relationship. Every married couple should be saying, “Yes, I want that.” And, uh-

Bill: Of course we think that, Jim. (laughs)

Jim: Yeah. And some days, some days you’re going, “Okay, we’re doing pretty good, we’re batting 900.”

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: You know, we’re almost there nine, nine out of ten times-

Bill: Yeah.

Jim: … we’re getting it.

Bill: Yep.

Jim: And other days you’re going, “Okay, I got one, one hit.”

Bill: Right.

Pam: (laughs)

Jim: Out of ten, ten at bat.

Bill: A- and I would just say to every couple out there, “Enjoy the season you’re in and start preparing for the next one.”

Jim: And choose joy.

Bill: And choose joy.

Jim: I love that.

Pam: All along the way. Invest in your love relationship. Remember the oasis. Make it an oasis.

Jim: Yeah, no, that’s all good. It does mean you have to buy a boat, though, right?

Pam: (laughs)

Bill: (laughs)

Pam: That’s a nice oasis.

Jim: All right. Thank you guys for being with us. This has been great content. Thank you so much.

Pam: Thank you.

Jim: And, you know, for you to get a copy of this, that’s what I would do. Jean and I are gonna start reading this (laughs) and, uh-

Bill: Good idea.

Jim: … you know, just, uh, apply those principals. And you can get ahold of this, uh, for a donation of any amount. If it can be monthly, that’s great, one time gift, that’s great. If you can’t afford it, we believe in the content. We’ll get it to you and trust others will cover the cost of that. So just get in touch with us. And, as we mentioned last time, we have so many helps here at Focus on the Family. I’m, I- yes, I’m, I hope, spiritually proud of these things that we’re doing. Hope Restored, the marriage intensives, i- if you’re in that spot where you need some strong work in your marriage, call us. Get more information about Hope Restored. Uh, marriage mentoring is available and we’ll help you get on board with that and help train you a bit even. And so much more. Just get in touch with us.

John: Yeah, uh, help is a phone call away. A lot of resources here, uh, our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459 or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Well, join us next time as we hear from British Evangelist J.John, who provides four reasons why he believes in the message of the gospel.

Rev. Canon J.John: I’m a Christian because it’s true. I’m a Christian because I need forgiveness. I’m a Christian because Jesus died for me. I’m a Christian because it actually works.