John Fuller: You know, in some ways, marriage is like a dance. In the beginning, you’re so excited to hold hands and move to the music, and it’s fun and easy. But then life happens and the tempo gets faster, and it’s harder to dancer together in the marital relationship. And sometimes, you might accidentally step on your partner’s toes or something. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And we’re gonna hear today from a couple who have let each other down in their marriage dance, both literally and figuratively. But in Jesus Christ, they’ve found rhythm again. They’ve learned new steps. They’ve figure out how to hold onto the relationship. I’m John Fuller and thanks for joining us today.
Jim Daly: Hey, John. When there’s conflict in marriage, uh, most couples seem to have two responses, you know. Either they panic and worry they married the wrong person. Now, be honest, have you ever thought that? You, the listener, has that e- ever crept in? Or you know what? You just shrug your shoulders and say, “Okay. I’m gonna accept the conflict. I’m gonna accept it the way it is. And this is part of being a Christian in my marriage.” Uh, Paul reminds us in Ephesians 3 that God is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think. Just let that sink in for a minute. Um, it’s possible for you to have a God-honoring, joyful, probably not perfect, but a healthy marriage. It really is. But here’s the catch, are you willing to stop focusing on your spouse’s flaws and work on your stuff? And the answer typically, for all of us as human beings is, “No. I’d rather work on (laughs) the other person.”
John: (laughs) Yeah.
Jim: Because we’re selfish creatures. Uh, our guests today, Dave and Ann Wilson, uh, they spent a lotta years, uh, thinking (laughs) that their marriage would be better off if only their spouse would straighten out. And, uh, you know, I’m in there too. I mean, I’ve often thought that. I’m sure Jean has thought that (laughs) as well. “If Jim would only do this, we’d have a far better marriage.” And that’s probably true in so many ways. It’s how you lay your life down for one another, how you become selfless. That’s the bottom line in my mind. And that’s why God has set it up this way. He lets opposites attract, so that you can irritate each other into the Kingdom of God and become more like Christ. It’s an awesome plan. And I hope today’s program will bring you hope.
John: And the Wilsons are the hosts of FamilyLife Today. A radio show produced by FamilyLife. Dave and Ann speak at marriage conferences. They’ve spent more than 30 years teaching and mentoring couples and parents across the country. And they have three grown sons, and a growing number of grandchildren.
Jim: Dave and Ann, welcome to Focus for the first time, right? (laughs)
Ann Wilson: Yes, thank you.
Dave Wilson: First time, and we are glad to be here.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It is so good to have you. Well, you two, um, accidentally… I’m gonna start right with the, your most embarrassing story. Your, your dance contest. (laughing)
Dave: Really, that’s where you wanna start?
Jim: It may not be your, it may not be your most embarrassing (laughs) story, but it certainly is funny. This, to me, is the quintessential miscommunication in marriage. I re- I was telling my wife about your story this morning. She was howling, going, “Oh, man.” And I’m so glad I didn’t make this mistake, Dave, I mean.
Dave: (laughs) Yeah.
Jim: So, what happened? How many years were you married? What went on with this little miscommunication?
Dave: It was actually our 25th wedding anniversary.
Jim: (laughs) Oh, man.
Ann: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Dave: We’re in, uh, Mexico at an all-inclusive. We’ve never been to an all-inclusive, so I’m a tight-wad, and I’m loving this place ’cause it’s free.
Jim: All you can eat. (laughs)
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: All you can eat. You swim up the pool and get a Coke. I mean, everything’s free. And the trip was free. We were there to do a wedding for a couple in our church.
Jim: Oh, so it truly was free.
Dave: Oh, oh.
Jim: I was gonna say, it’s not free, Dave. (laughs)
Dave: Oh, no. It was free.
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: And the couple didn’t know, but I’ve been praying for a free trip to Mexico for six months, literally every day on my knees, and we got this trip.
Ann: That’s true.
Jim: So, this is an answer to prayer.
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: It was unbelievable.
Ann: It really was.
Jim: So, there you are. You guys are excited.
Ann: Oh, so excited.
Dave: Oh, we’re excited.
Jim: Wow. What happened?
Dave: We, so we ended up at this dinner theater where, I guess, every night all the couples go. We were…
Ann: Yeah. They have a show every night.
Dave: We didn’t know. We were just in our own little world. So, we end up there. They want volunteers. We end up backstage. We were cued that it was a newlywed game. So, we thought we were volunteering to get a newlywed game. We didn’t know until the curtain opened, emcee walks out, and he goes, “Tonight is dance competition night.”
Jim: Right up your alley. (laughs)
Ann: Oh, it’s terrible. Like, we are terrible dancers.
Dave: Oh, we were like, we looked at each other, like, yeah. Uh, we loved it, yeah, but we can’t dance.
Ann: And they, and they said, “We’re going to be having music from, and dances from around the world.” And so, you know, we’re gonna do music, that’s the waltz. And so, we have to, you know. So, Dave’s like, “What’s the waltz?”
Jim: (laughs) Dave.
Ann: Uh…
Dave: And so, it’s gonna be voted off by the crowd. You know, crowd…
Ann: And…
Jim: Okay. And the prize is, what do you think?
Dave: Well, they said, grand prize. And we’re thinking another free trip back here.
Jim: Yeah.
John: That would be a good grand prize.
Dave: You know, that would be…
Jim: That’s a grand prize.
Ann: Yes.
Dave: That would be a grand prize. And he kept saying, “Grand prize.” So, we’re like, “We gotta win this thing.” When we get voted off first couple, we’re out. They vote us off ’cause we’re terrible.
Ann: We’re terrible.
Dave: We can’t dance.
Jim: (laughs) Okay.
Dave: And there’s 8 couples or 10 couples. And we’re off and we’re going to our seat. And as we’re going, the emcee says, “Who are you and where are you from?” So, we say, “We’re Dave and Ann from Michigan.” And the crowd starts roaring. And he goes, “You want them back on?” And they go, “Yeah.” And we’re like, “No, we’re fine. We’re sitting down.” he goes, “No, you’re back on.” And we think…
Jim: Were you fan favorite because you were that bad?
Dave: We were that bad. We think they’re people from the Midwest. We still, to this day, don’t know.
Ann: That’s the only thing that it could be.
Dave: They must have heard Michigan like, we represent them. So, we end up back. We get to the final three. Again, don’t ask me how. They have to be blind, right?
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: And then the final dance… Before that, we’re all dancing together. Now, he says, “Dave and Ann Michigan, you go first.” One couple at a time. He goes, “Last category of music.” It was all categories. He goes, “’60s music, acrobatic.” That’s what he said. And I laughed, like Jim did. I’m like, “What do you mean, acrobatic?” And he goes, “The more acrobatic you are, the better chance you have of winning,” and he said it again, “the grand prize.” So, I look at Ann. Nobody else knows this but me, but she was a gymnast her whole life.
Jim: Oh, okay.
Dave: She can do aerial flips and round offs, and what, I’m not kidding, one-armed push-ups. Guys, she can put us…
Jim: You’re gonna win this thing. (laughs)
Dave: Oh, yeah.
Ann: Dave, Dave has this glimmer in his eye-
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: … like, we’re gonna win. And so, he bends down to me and he says, “You do you, Ann, with that one-armed push-ups. And we’re gonna win.”
Dave: Yeah. (laughs) And she gives me a look, I got it. So, I…
Ann: And we’re both pretty competitive.
Dave: Yeah. And we’re in the final three now. So, we’re going after this grand prize.
Jim: (laughs) You’re gonna win it.
Dave: So, I back up out of the way ’cause I can’t dance. And I just do my John Travolta and, you know-
Jim: Staying Alive thing.
Dave: … I do nothing. And while I’m doing this, she starts running across the stage and she does aerials. You know what those are?
Jim: Yes, yeah.
Dave: They’re cartwheels without, uh, hands, I guess. I don’t know. She, bam, lands this thing. And the crowds, “Ha.” And then she goes the other way, f- f- f- bam. Ha. And it’s like, fireworks are going off. This place is loving her. And I’m just like, “Go, girl. Go, girl.” And it was just hilarious.
And then the music is starting to end.
Ann: And then…
Dave: And I’m at one end of the stage. We’re 20 yards apart.
Ann: And so, we look at each other like, we need to end this really well. And so, we look at each other like, how should we end it?
Dave: And I get this great idea, at least I thought. I put my arms in a big circle like a hula hoop.
Jim: Out in front of you, yeah.
Ann: It didn’t look like that to me, Jim.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: It was a circle. Yeah. It was definitely a circle.
Jim: So, this is the communication part.
Dave: There we go.
Jim: So, you think it’s a circle for her to dive through.
Dave: Yeah. I’m like, you know, uh, SeaWorld, big.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: Shamu goes through that d-
Jim: Well, I wouldn’t go to sh- I’d go to maybe a dolphin.
Dave: All right, a dolphin.
Ann: Thank you.
Jim: Don’t go there.
Dave: Okay. (laughs)
Jim: It’s just a piece of marriage advice.
Ann: Yes, thank you.
Dave: Yeah, exactly. Thanks for that advice. (laughs)
Jim: Okay, there you go. And you’re thinking?
Ann: I’m thinking, what’s he doing? And…
Jim: (laughs) This is a good time to call a timeout. (laughs)
Ann: Yes.
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: But I look at it and I think, oh, he’s holding his arms in a way that he’s gonna catch me like Jennifer Grey in that old movie, Dirty Dancing.
Dave: Uh-huh.
Jim: There you go.
Ann: And I think he’s gonna catch me, and we’re gonna spin around. And we’ll end it, and we’ll win.
Dave: My arms were in a circle, no question.
Ann: (laughs) No. So, we look at each other like, got it.
Jim: Okay.
Ann: And so, I start running as hard as I can. Because you know, as a gymnast, you go 100% and you go hard or else you could get hurt. So, I run as hard as I can.
Dave: I mean, picture the Olympic vault. She is sprinting at me.
Jim: Right. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
Dave: And I’m like, “This is awesome,” you know. And so, she jumps up in the air, and I turn to get out of her way ’cause I’m like, “She’s gonna do her little flip. She’s gonna land.” I’ll turn back around, and there she’ll be. So, I literally turn by back.
Ann: And I smashed to the ground, barely catching my face from hitting. And I am in pain.
Dave: She face plants. I hear it. I never saw it. I heard it. Like, bam. And the crowds, “Oh.” And I’m, you know, it’s one of those moments where you’re like, I know everything that just happened behind me just by the sound.
Jim: And it’s not good.
Dave: Like, she thought I was gonna catch her. Oh, my gosh. And I turn around and the crowd is looking at me like, “You jerk,” right?
Jim: (laughs) This is bad.
Dave: ‘Cause it looked like I did it on purpose. And she’s laying there, laughing, which is weird.
Ann: I am laughing so hard, in so much pain. But I’m thinking, we are the dumbest people on the planet.
Jim: Right. A-
Ann: We’re old. We’re, we’ve been married 25 years. What are we thinking? And I’m laughing thinking, we are so dumb.
Dave: And here’s all you need to know, we won first prize. First prize.
Jim: No, that’s not all we need to know.
John: Yeah.
Jim: You also had some major injuries (laughs) out of this thing.
Dave: I’m trying to cover that part up.
Jim: Don’t forget that.
Dave: You don’t wanna hear that part.
John: Yeah, yeah, uh.
Jim: Dave, this is going right to your pain. This is an intervention.
Ann: Yes. (laughs)
Dave: All right, here we go. That’s what I thought.
Jim: (laughs) So…
Ann: We end up finding out, this is after we got home, that I broke both my wrists.
John: Oh.
Jim: So, you had fractures.
Ann: Yes, in casts.
Jim: Did you not know they were broken?
Ann: Well, I just thought, oh, I mean…
Jim: Hey, it’s Mexico. You’re gonna go all out.
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: We’ll take care of it when I… You are tough.
Dave: She kept, she kept grabbing her wrists the rest of the trip. I’m like, “Ah, you’re fine. You’re fine.”
Jim: Wow.
Dave: “When we get back, you can go to the doctor.” And you know, she’s a tough gymnast, but she comes home with two casts on her, (laughs) on her wrists.
John: And what was the grand prize? I didn’t catch that.
Dave: Well, it was two free T-shirts. That’s what we got.
Jim: (laughs) I hope you gave your T-shirt to Ann.
Dave: So, I gave it to her.
Jim: One for each arm. (laughs)
Dave: I mean, it was… Yeah, she can wrap her wrists with my T-shirt.
Jim: Wrap her wrists in them. (laughs)
John: (laughs) Oh, man.
Jim: Well, you know, you guys have really illustrated. Like we said at the v- at the beginning, this is miscommunication kind of.
John: Yeah.
Dave: Yeah.
Jim: Uh, exhibit A, right?
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Be on the same page.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But, uh, you know, relate us to the whole marriage journey.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, this is where we miscommunicate.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And I think so often we’re hoping our spouse is gonna meet all our needs.
Dave: Yep.
Jim: And we have that expectation. And, but we’re all flawed. We’re all, uh, sinner saved by grace.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: So, you know, where does it go from there? I mean, you’re 25 years into it. But this is the basis of marriage, isn’t it, the dark side?
Ann: S- Yes, yes. And I would say that too. I feel like Dave did drop me and he’s dropped me many times.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Ann: And I’ve dropped him many times. And it’s so funny, when you first get married, you run hard. You go hard at it, you know. You’re like, “I’m all in. I wanna do this. We’re gonna be great.” And then our spouse lets us down or drops us and they disappoint us. And suddenly, we stop running quite as hard. And we’re afraid…
Jim: A little more cautious.
Ann: Yes.
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: We’re afraid that we’ll be dropped. And pretty soon, you don’t have either one running toward each other.
Jim: Wow.
Dave: Uh, yeah. And I, I would add, I think at some point, you almost think you married the wrong person. ‘Cause you marry the person you think is gonna make you happy.
Jim: Yes.
Dave: And then they don’t. Or there’s some disappointment or discouragement, and you start to think-
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Dave: … there’s someone else out there that could. I mean, it happens all the time. And I mean, we’re in our first year of marriage and driving to our first job which is in full-time ministry to be the chaplain for the Nebraska Cornhuskers. And we’re screaming at each other in the car saying, “I wish I had never married you,” because we’re so disappointed already.
Jim: Hmm.
Dave: Never dreaming as two followers of Christ going into the ministry, we’re gonna be this disappointed with each other that quickly. And so many couples go through that, and I think here’s what they think, I married the wrong person. And our answer, the secret we talk about in the book is, “No, you’re not, you didn’t marry the wrong person. You’re looking in the wrong place.”
Jim: Huh.
Dave: We did the same thing.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Dave: You’re trying to find life from a person, from a job, from an amount of money, it is never gonna satisfy. You have to look vertical. That’s the whole point.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: But I also feel like we are educated, we go to school so many years for a great career, vocation or some sort of training. But how many years have we had training in how to have a great marriage? Most of us have little or none.
Jim: Yeah. Right.
John: Yeah. Well, that’s why we’re doing this program with Dave and Ann Wilson on today’s episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. You’ll learn more about their powerful book, Vertical Marriage: The One Secret That Will Change Your Marriage, when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Uh, describe that situation for you. What were the fights like? Uh, give us a picture into that, so people hearing us can say, “Oh, that’s just like us.”
Ann: Mm-hmm. I think I had an expectation of this is what it would look like for Dave to lead our family spiritually. He’s a pastor. He was a chaplain for the Detroit Lions. And I saw him lead. He’s a great leader.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Ann: And so, he would come home, and I had this idea of like, “Oh, my gosh. You’re gonna lead us in prayer and this devotion.” And I had this picture of what it would look like in my head. And I would say things to him like, “Um, why aren’t you leading us, and maybe you should pray more, and maybe you should t- like, just lead us and do a Bible study.”
Dave: And she’ll throw names in there too.
Ann: (laughs) Yes, I would.
Dave: Like, “Can you lead us more like Jim Daly with his family,” you know.
Jim: Yeah, right. (laughs) Time out, Jean don’t listen to this broadcast.
Ann: Right.
Dave: No, but th-
Jim: Everybody’s guilty of falling short.
Dave: Oh, yeah. And I, I mean, I look back, you know, now we’re empty nesters, but I look back on those days-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dave: … and I was leading strong outside the home. And I would come home and just wanna rest.
Jim: Yeah. Uh, I was gonna ask you-
Dave: Really did.
Jim: … what was the disconnect? Because I think a lot of spouses, a lot of wives see that in their husband. They may volunteer at church or-
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Yeah.
Jim: … you know, do things really good outside the home. What is about us men that we feel the home is our refuge? It’s not the place we wanna work.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Right. I think for me, I really did wanna come home and rest. But I also, this sounds crazy ’cause I teach men in many ways how to lead spiritually, I felt ill-equipped to do it in my home.
Jim: Interesting.
Dave: I felt like, I can do it on a stage. I can do it with men’s groups. I can do it, speaking at marriage conferences. When I walk in my family room, I’m like, “Oh, my gosh. I got my wife. I don’t know how to lead her. I’ve got three sons.” I really was like, “Somebody tell me how to do this.” Uh, and again, I, I don’t wanna be a victim. I never saw it growing up. I never had a model. So, I was really looking for help that way. But what I did, I just became passive.
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Dave: I came in the door. I almost had an attitude like, “Hey, I’m leading strong everywhere. Give me a break. This is a place where I don’t need to lead strong.” And she was longing-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dave: … for me to lead. And…
Ann: Um, I think I, I don’t think I responded very well, because it wasn’t motivating. It’s not motivating for a person to have their flaws pointed out daily. I think it made Dave wanna retreat, you know-
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: … to go somewhere where he was being praised and applauded.
Jim: Right.
Ann: Because at home, I feel like I was probably critiquing him at time.
Jim: What did that sound like? Uh, again, for people to catch it.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: What does a wife, uh, um, speak, in the gender context-
Ann: Yeah, yeah.
Jim: … what is a wife saying that makes her husband run away?
Ann: Well, Dave would leave. He would leave for, to do something great like lead a Bible study, do a meeting at church or whatever. And I would say things like, “Seriously, you’re leaving again, and I have to do this by myself?” I hope the b- (laughs) p- This is being really truthful, “I hope the boys remember who you are.”
Jim: Yeah, uh-huh.
Ann: When you wanna come home to me, uh, (laughs) jeez, poor Dave.
Dave: Yeah. It’s interesting, uh…
Jim: W- But, uh… It was out of frustration.
Ann: Yes.
Dave: Oh.
Jim: I don’t wanna miss… Yeah.
Ann: And I felt, I felt like he wasn’t hearing me.
Jim: Right. That was frustration. You’re trying to voice it. I get that. You want remedy.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: And y-
Dave: Yeah. It was interesting, when we, uh, communicated about this feeling, what I heard, I don’t even remember specific details like that. But we put a story in the book where we were asked to speak at a MOP’s group.
Jim: Uh-huh.
Dave: And actually, Ann was asked to speak-
Jim: Mother’s of Preschoolers.
Ann: Yes.
Dave: … yeah, at our church. And they said, “Hey, why don’t you bring Dave. It would be good to hear a man’s perspective.” And, and so, I get up there. “We haven’t talked about this. What are you gonna say?” I’m like, “I don’t know. I’ll just be color commentary.” And I riff into this story that I’d never said out loud. We’d never talked about it.
Jim: Oh, man.
Dave: And as I’m s-
Ann: That’s not good.
Dave: As I’m saying it, I’m like, “This is really how a man feels.” And, and basically, I said to these women, uh, oh, “As a man, you grow up and you have people cheering for you.” If you’re good as, as a little kid in sports, it’s your coach, your mom, your dad, your teacher, if you’re music, you know. And I’m just saying, we hear cheering all the time, and I’m clapping. And Ann’s sitting on the stool, and I’m, I’m like, animated now.
Ann: And I’m like, “Ooh, this is interesting.”
Jim: You’re connecting.
Dave: Oh, yeah. The women are like, “Yeah.”
Ann: Yeah. And the women are locked in.
Dave: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: And I’m like, “Ooh, this is good. I’ve never heard this before.” And then…
Jim: And then… (laughs)
Ann: And he says, and he, he also said, “And then I met Ann. And she’s basically saying, ‘Of all the men in the world, I choose you, Dave Wilson. You are the man.” And then he’s clapping, and I’m like, “Yeah, this is good. I did do that.” And then he goes, “But then, we’ve been married for a while, and we men, walk in the door and all we hear is, boo, boo.” And I’m like, “What?” I look at him.
Dave: Yeah. I turned when I said the boo, and looked at her on the stool, and I’m like, “Uh-oh.”
Jim: Is this the first time you’ve ever disclosed this?
Ann: Ever.
Jim: Oh, man.
Dave: Oh. And I saw her look like, “Are you kidding me?” And I’m like, “Okay. This is gonna be a long drive home,” you know. But what happened in that moment is I finally articulated-
Jim: Yes.
Dave: … what I as a man felt. I can’t tell you the words she said. I just felt like everywhere else I go, they’re cheering me.
Jim: Right.
Dave: At my church, and different places. I come home, and she’s not literally booing me, but it feels like-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dave: … you wanna change me. You’re not satisfied with me. You’re not a good father. And so, you know, it’s interesting. We know this as men. Men go where they’re respected. It’s like a magnet. And so, I don’t wanna come home. I’m not saying that, but I, and I do wanna come home. But inside, I’m like, “Here we go. I’m gonna walk in the door. I’m not gonna be enough of a man and a leader in the home.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dave: And so, it was really hard to work through that.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: And, uh, honestly, that was the beginning of a real turn in our marriage.
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: Because Ann really started to say, “Do I do that?” And again, I’m not saying I don’t boo her. I mean, there was the cherish and love thing. But I can tell you this, nobody cheers me more than this woman today.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dave: It’s unbeli- She believes in me. She speaks life to me. And again, didn’t change in one day. But over really some months and years, she is my biggest cheerleader. I mean, it’s… She would start to say things like, “You’re an amazing man of God.” And I would honestly think, no I’m not. Like, she’s raising the bar way up here.
Jim: So, you started realizing your faults-
Dave: Yeah.
Jim: … better than her. (laughs)
Dave: Yeah, yeah. But it…
Jim: Or at least what was vocalized, yeah.
Dave: Yeah. And, and I think we men, know this. When somebody believes in us-
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: … and raises the bar that we’re not even there yet, we wanna become that guy.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: And I became a better man because she started speaking life rather than-
Ann: I went…
Dave: … she started cheering rather than booing.
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: I was afraid to do that because I felt like it would ena- Dave would think I was satisfied, and it would enable him to stay the same. Which is a weird…
Jim: And doggonit, we don’t want our men to feel that way. (laughs)
Dave: Yeah, never. (laughs)
Jim: I’m sorry, but (laughs) I, it’s just so funny. (laughs)
Ann: It’s, I know, it’s the, it’s this warped view that God, for me, God had to get a hold of me.
Jim: And we’re kind of into the, a bit of the solution side.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And we’re gonna have you guys come back next time.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: We’re gonna cover more of this. But I wanna, if I could really back in a little bit-
Dave: All right.
Jim: … because I do, (laughs) I know it’s painful. You’re looking at me like, “Why are you doing this, Jim?”
Dave: Okay. I’ll go anywhere you w-
Jim: But, but…
John: You’re not going back to the dance thing, are you?
Jim: Well, no, no, no.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Not all the way back there, but the idea of what some of the issues you face. Because I think-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … as I read the book, you experienced what most couples experience.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And I wanna go to the neck problem.
Dave: Mm-hmm.
Ann: Oh.
Jim: ‘Cause I think this is really good, right?
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: The end of today.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Wow.
Jim: Um, describe the neck problem. Uh, I think a lot of people are assuming they know what it means. But from both of your perspectives-
Ann: Hmm.
Jim: … what was the neck problem?
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And then we’ll talk about what the solution to your neck problem was.
Ann: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Dave: And I’ll let Ann describe it from her side. But I’ll tell you this, this was the first chapter we wrote in the book.
Jim: (laughs) Yeah, right, go right to the weakest part.
Dave: I mean, it was never gonna be in the book. Never was, did we discuss, “Let’s talk about this problem.” And Ann wrote that chapter before anything else.
Ann: Hmm.
Dave: Which was so vulnerable. I’m like, “Oh, boy. Here we go. We’re gonna talk about that.”
Jim: So, tell us.
Dave: Go ahead, Ann.
Ann: Um, um, Dave and I were on staff with crew. And as part of crew, spring break, you go to the beaches in Daytona, and you share the gospel with people. And so, Dave and I were talking on the beach, you know, we’re standing in the beach as a married couple first year of marriage. And Dave’s talking to me, and I’m talking to him. And suddenly, he can’t help but turn his neck following these pretty girls in their bikinis down the beach. And so, I’m like, “Hey, I’m right here.” He goes, “I know.” I said, “But you’re following these girls and watching these girls in these bikinis.” He goes, “No, I’m not.” I said, “Yes, I’m watching your eyes go down the beach.” And so, that was the start of realizing, “Well, Dave has a neck problem.” (laughs)
Dave: That’s what she called it, you know.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: But, and I, I, and I honestly denied it, you know.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: It’s our first year of marriage. And I’ve had this problem my whole life.
Jim: Right.
Dave: But I don’t know it. And she says, “You actually, when we’re in meetings, when we’re in events, a woman will walk by and you’ll follow her with your eyes.” I’m like, “No, I don’t.” And it was one of those things like, “Okay, I gotta see if I do.”
Jim: So, you didn’t even realize it.
Dave: I didn’t even realize it.
Jim: That’s interesting.
Dave: I honestly, denied it. And then she…
Ann: And we were new in our faith.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: She brought it up a few times. And I’m like, you know, “I do not.” And then one time, I’m at an event, I’m like, I, I’m gonna s- And I did, oh, my gosh. And it was like a fight not to follow some attractive woman. I’m like, it was one of the first times in my life like, “Oh, my goodness. This is a real problem-
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: … that my wife pointed out. And now, I’ve got to deal with it.”
Jim: So, at least with that, you had credibility. I mean, what she was saying was true, right?
Dave: Yep.
Jim: And so, where did that go?
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Well, it’s interesting. In the book, we have the neck problem, Ann’s perspective. And then after she wrote that, I said, “I need to give my perspective.” And I walked back through the neck problem becoming a pornography problem.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: Which again, never thought we’d put in a marriage book. But it’s really honest and real. And I walked through that journey in my own life that began as a teenager. Now, it’s in my marriage. Now, is a decade into my marriage.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: And, uh, it’s something that didn’t just go away like that. It was something like, I had to…
Ann: Uh, and you would have times it would pop back up. It wasn’t a consistent thing in our marriage.
Dave: Yeah. And I think so many people experience that. It’s, you know, it comes and goes. And I’d win and I’d lose.
Jim: Right.
Dave: And she was a part of that. She knew, and I had told her.
Jim: Dave, let me, let me put some perspective around that. And again, I don’t have the numbers right at my fingertips. But even men in the church, um-
Dave: Mm-hmm.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … something like 50, 60% of men going to church, uh, are experiencing some use of pornography or maybe addiction, uh, certainly would be in that number.
Ann: And those numbers are really rising among women as well.
Jim: That’s huge and that… Yeah.
Dave: Yeah.
Jim: For the guys listening, Dave, h- what gave you the final victory over that?
Dave: Mm-hmm.
Jim: How did you say, okay, enough is enough?
Dave: Oh, it was really, I love my wife. I wanna be a, a dad to three sons that’s honorable. And I can’t carry this anymore. I just…
Jim: So, you had to correct that decision making.
Dave: Yeah. I’ve just got to get help, yeah.
Ann: And it was amazing that he told me. And this became something, I think that is just a brave thing to do.
Jim: Well, it is. But at the moment, back to your response-
Ann: Yeah, the, right.
Jim: … let me say, most women, you do, it’s amazing capacity-
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … that women have.
Ann: Right.
Jim: And that is to say, “What have I done?”
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: Exactly.
Jim: How come I’m not enough? And you had that fear anyway, right?
Ann: Yeah. And I…
Jim: Physically-
Ann: Yes. So…
Jim: … am I attractive to Dave?
Ann: Yes.
Dave: Oh, totally.
Jim: So, speak to that tenderness of a woman’s heart ’cause you, you go right to it.
Ann: Exactly. And I think most of us as women, do feel that insecurity anyway, because we’re always in comparison to the world. And, uh, especially with social media today, we’re comparing ourselves to millions of women around the world. And I think what it caused me to do is it caused me to go before God and say, “God, who am I, you know? Am I enough?” And so, to almost, it’s kinda that vertical concept of going to God first. God, what do you say about me? Who do you say that I am? What do you want me to know about who I am, and how to respond to Dave? And I, I did not do that well at first. But I think, as I began to understand and even talked to Dave that this isn’t because you’re lacking anything. This is my deal. And so, it became more of a partnership. And I wish I could say, I responded well every time. There were kind of going back and forth of well and not too well.
Jim: Yeah. And that’s reasonable.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I think people listening-
Dave: W-
Jim: … you’re both growing.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: But you know, y- at the end here, I need to ask you-
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … some women would choose to leave.
Ann: Hmm.
Jim: Um, having the hindsight now of all the years-
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … behind you and fighting through this.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: And we’ll pick up next time with, uh, the tools in which you do this with-
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and your other battles. (laughs)
Dave: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, this is a great book, Vertical Marriage. But we’re on the-
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … the core message of the book right now, which is to find your identity in Christ, not in your spouse.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Right.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: But in that, in that time space, uh, where you are deciding, I’m sure-
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … is Dave the guy for me?
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: Have a made a big mistake?
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: With all the years of experience, the growth that you’ve experienced as a couple in Christ, looking back on that, was it worth holding on?
Ann: So worth it. I think the beauty is that I know Dave, the ins and out. I know everything about him.
Jim: Right.
Ann: And I still love him. And isn’t that the gospel? He knows all of my flaws, all of my weaknesses and chooses. Maybe not always feels like it, but he chooses to love me. And that to me, is the beauty of marriage.
Dave: And I would just add, it is worth fighting for.
Ann: It’s so worth it.
Dave: And it was, it was and is a fight.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: Um, and there were days we wanted to give up. I wanted to give up. But now, yeah, looking at grandkids, a legacy, it was worth it.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Dave: It still is.
Jim: Well, I so appreciate that ringing endorsement, uh, for marriage from our guests, Dave and Ann Wilson. You know, far too many couples experience the inevitable, uh, challenges of conflict, pride, lust and fear. Maybe not all of them, but certainly one or two of them perhaps. And then they walk away from their relationship, rather than allowing God to work on their hearts and heal their marriage. Uh, if you and your spouse are struggling, uh, Focus on the Family is here to help you. We have a great team of Christian counselors. Let us connect you with one of them. Just make that call to Focus on the Family, and we’ll set that up. We also have Hope Restored, where we provide intensive counseling over, uh, several days. Typically, it’s four days, uh, for husbands and wives who are ready to quit. Many of those couples have signed divorce papers. And here’s the good news, I’d say the great news, four out of five of those couples who attend Hope Restored are still together two years later, and doing much, much better.
John: Yeah. It’s remarkable what God does at Hope Restored. And so, contact us today to learn more about those marriage intensives, uh, or to ask about our counseling team. And, uh, find other resources like Dave and Ann’s book, Vertical Marriage: The One Secret That Will Change Your Marriage. All of it available when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459. Or we’ve got the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: And as we often say, John, we can get a copy of Vertical Marriage out to you for a gift of any amount. If you can do it monthly, that really helps the budget. But a one-time gift really helps as well. So, let’s do ministry together. Plus, thanks to the generosity of some great friends here at Focus on the Family. Right now we have a matching opportunity going on for the end of year. Uh, which means, any gift you send will be doubled by them to help save more marriages, equip parents, rescue babies and their moms from abortion, and so much more. So, please, consider a generous gift to Focus on the Family today and help us give families hope, here at the end of 2024.
John: Again, our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Or donate and double your gift at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Well, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.
