Woman #1: What happened to the man that I married? He was so affectionate. We talked for hours, and he loved to make me laugh.
Woman #2: I wish he were a better father and spiritual leader.
Woman #3: He never listens to me. It’s hard for me to respect my husband right now.
John: It’s not unusual to feel disappointed or, uh, let down by your spouse, but how does that color your daily interactions? We’re gonna talk about that today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And I’m John Fuller.
Jim: You know, John, when Jean and I did our premarital counseling, which is a good thing to do by the way, if you’re in that spot. Do premarital counseling. Uh, but we, we were like so in love. And we were saying, “We’re so much alike. Isn’t it crazy-”
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “… how much alike we are?” And then of course, we got married and then like 18 months in, we’re going, “We’re not very much alike, are we?” And what happens, as an illustration with our marriages, is we learn that those different things begin to irritate us. And whether it’s the proverbial toothpaste squeeze at the middle rather than the end, or night owl/ morning person, or whatever it might be, these things can grow into irritants. Now, those are the lighthearted ones.
But then you add the emotional disconnection with some couples, and you just stall, and you decide not to put the effort in anymore, even for us as believers. And we should know better, but we’re human and we fail at that at times, and we just stop tending the garden and the weeds grow.
And today we’re gonna talk about some really important things of tending that garden of your marriage and making sure that both husband and wife are pouring in so that you can have an amazing marriage in Christ.
John: Well, we’re glad to have Dave and Ann Wilson with us to unpack this topic and, uh, go deep on the importance of that communication and, uh, keeping it good. Uh, Dave and Ann were the founders and pastors at Kensington Community Church and Dave was chaplain for the Detroit Lions football team.
In the past several years, they’ve been, uh, hosting FamilyLife Today, a fellow sister, I guess, uh, radio show and podcast, uh, to help families. We’re gonna hear about a book that Ann has written, and Dave has contributed to called How to Speak Life to Your Husband: When All You Want to Do Is Yell at Him.
Jim: I wanna say, Dave, what did you contribute to that? Go ahead (laugh).
Dave: Not much, I’ll tell you that.
John: Yeah. Well, before we get going, lemme just say we’ve got copies of the book here at the Ministry, and you’ll find the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Ann and Dave, welcome back to Focus.
Ann: It’s so good to be here.
Jim: Yeah, it’s good to have here. You guys are in Orlando now, right? And, uh-
Dave: Yeah. FamilyLife moved. Last time we were here, we were in Little Rock. Now we’re in Orlando. It’s pretty nice.
Jim: Yeah.
John: (laugh).
Jim: It was so funny. Bob Lepine, who co-hosted with Dennis Rainey, I remember you came up with- somebody came up with that idea on April Fool’s Day that we opened your show and, and they opened our show.
Dave: Yeah. That’s fun.
Jim: And people… I mean, people were like, “What? What?” I thought I got Focus.
John: We had a lot of radio operators thinking, I got the wrong show loaded.
Dave: Yeah.
Jim: I thought that was a great trick we played.
John: It was fun.
Jim: That was a lot of fun. Ann, lemme start with you. This… You know, this book title could be very intimidating for wives particularly.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, when you look at it, How to Speak Life to Your Husband: When All You Want to Do Is Yell at Him and let me just see the hands of the women listening or watching on YouTube. Raise your hand. Yeah.
Ann: (laugh).
Jim: Ann, it- you know, I think you’re aiming this obviously at wives, but it really applies to both husbands and wives and how we treat each other.
Ann: Exactly.
Jim: And that’s what it gets down to.
Ann: It does.
Jim: In that context, when you’re looking at it. What do you think that overarching theme is? Uh, I… I gotta be very careful here.
Ann: (laugh).
Jim: Uh, my experience has been (laugh)-
Ann: I know.
Jim: Uh, you know, wives tend to want to make us the best husbands we could be.
Ann: That’s it.
Jim: Yeah. Um, husbands are probably feeling like, why do you keep tinkering with me? Love me the way I am. But you fill in the blanks. Is that kind of the battle?
Ann: That is exactly. I think when we get married, it’s exactly what you said, Jim, like, he’s amazing. I love him. I love everything about him.
Dave: That lasted about a week.
John: (laugh).
Ann: No, it lasted about six months.
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: And then you’re like, “Oh, there’s things in him that I could help make him better.”
Jim: (laugh). So, this becomes a project.
Ann: It… I’m like, “Oh, and-”
Dave: Fixer upper.
Ann: And so, I would see these things in Dave and think, “Oh, you don’t realize this, but you do X, Y, Z and you could do it better like this.” Not even thinking, I’m disappointed, I wanna change you. I’m thinking I am- I’m helping you.
Jim: Let me ask you that. And… And I’ll refer to it. I don’t mean to offend any wife, obviously.
Ann: Right.
Jim: But that blind spot, if I could call it that.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Not hearing the way that you’re coming across, thinking this is productive, when in fact, you know, most of us husbands we’re little boys at heart.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: And if we feel shamed, we kind of pull back.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: You know, we go into our cocoon.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: ‘Cause we don’t like shame.
Ann: Right.
Jim: We’re doing the best we can and it’s not measuring up. I’m not good enough for you. All those things that trickle through our mind.
Ann: Hmm.
Jim: Like, you know, the easiest thing here to do is just not talk.
John: Hmm.
Jim: Because every time I say something, I’m getting it wrong.
Ann: Ah.
Dave: That’s exactly what I did.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: I mean, I’m not sure I realized it, but I withdrew. And some of that withdrawal was I poured into my ministry. I was gone a lot more than I probably should have ’cause out there, I felt like they thought I was good (laugh). I come home, I thought, “She doesn’t think I’m good, I’ll see you later. I’ll go back there where they think I’m pretty good.”
Ann: I think a way to take us into that is a story ’cause I thought I was helping Dave. I… If you would’ve asked me, “Are you critiquing Dave?” Like, no. I don’t yell at him, really.
Jim: Right. It’s in a calm voice I say these things.
Ann: Yes-
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: … exactly. And so, we-
Dave: Well, not always.
Ann: (laugh). We were asked to speak at a moms’ preschooler group at our church. It was when our kids were all in elementary school, so I’m like, “Oh, Dave, you should go. You’re the pastor. They’re gonna love it if you come.” So, Dave’s like, “Yeah, I would totally do that.” And then I said, “What do you wanna talk about?” He goes, “I don’t know, let’s just wing it.” Which I’m like, “Eh, okay.”
Jim: I like your style, Dave (laugh).
Dave: Okay. That means I wasn’t prepared.
Ann: So, we get up there, uh, we’re sitting on stools and Dave gets super animated. He starts standing up, he’s pacing, and he goes, “Women, I don’t even get… I don’t think you know what it’s like for us as guys, because as little boys, we usually have someone cheering for us saying, ‘You’re great. You’re good at this.'”
He said, “And then we get older, and we have a coach or a teacher that are saying, ‘Oh, you’re really good at this,’ and they’re cheering for us.” And he said, “And I played college football, so I’ve got fans like, ‘Dave Wilson, you’re the man.'” I’m sitting on this chair thinking, huh, I’ve never thought of that. I’ve never-
Dave: And I had never- I had never said it quite like this.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: It was coming out and I’m like, “Oh, this is exactly how it feels.” And then I said, “And so then I meet Ann and basically she says of all the men in the world, I choose you. Dave Wilson, you’re the man.”
Ann: And I’m- now, I’m like, this is cool. Yes, I do think you’re the man. That is… This is really good.
Dave: And so, then I said, uh… And so, she’s cheering for me, and then I said, “So then we get married. After a few years I find, I walk in the door and all I hear is ‘boo!'” And I did just like that, I go, “Boo. Boo.” And I-
Jim: This is on stage?
Dave: Yeah, and I turned.
Ann: On stage.
Jim: Okay.
Dave: And I look over ’cause I’m at the front of the stage; she’s sitting back there. I go, “Boo.” And I turn, I look and she… I mean, I’d never said this in our home.
Ann: Ever.
Dave: I’d never said it out loud. I actually was like, “This is exactly how it feels. This is exactly…” And so, I thought this was good, I’m helping these women. And I saw her face, I’m like, “Ah, I’m a dead man.”
Ann: (laugh).
Dave: When we get in this car, this is not gonna be good.
Jim: You’re in trouble.
Dave: And I was, man, when we got in the car.
Jim: But… Yeah, Ann let me- let me interject here.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: For, you know, that wife that is thinking, “Wow, what did- what was the revelation when you’re hearing that? What were you feeling?”
Ann: I’m thinking he’s out of his mind.
Dave: (laugh).
Ann: He’s crazy. I’m like, “I… I don’t do that.” And so, we get in the car and I s… I don’t even know how we ended, but I got in the car, I looked at him and said, “What was that?” And he goes, “I don’t know. It just came out.”
Dave: I was like, “That came from God.” That’s what that was.
John: Oh.
Jim: That was even bold.
Ann: He… He did… No, he didn’t say that.
Dave: I didn’t say that. But I felt like it finally came out exactly how men…
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: And I was talking for men, not just this guy. I was talking about a lot of husbands.
Ann: And so, I leaned in, I said, “You think I boo you? I am helping you.” And he said then-.
Dave: And I said… I literally looked at her, I said, “Is it working?”
Ann: I’m like, “No!”
Jim: Ooh. Ooh.
Ann: “No, it’s not. And that’s why I have to say it more often and sometimes louder, because you obviously aren’t hearing what I’m saying.”
Dave: So that was a long drive home.
Ann: Ugh.
Jim: No, but you’re touching on something that’s so true. And…
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: Yep, yep.
Jim: And, you know, Jean and I experienced this too-
Dave: Yeah.
Jim: … and, uh, I think most couples, if we’re honest. I… I don’t want to speak for you John and Dena, but-
John: I’m just sitting here listening.
Dave: (laugh).
Jim: (laugh). This is… It’s such an interesting dynamic that it- it’s funny because it’s that, you know, normal.
John: Yeah.
Ann: Well, I… What ended up happening is I asked God… I vented to God, first of all, “Can you believe that, Lord? Like, how terrible is that?”
Dave: (laugh).
Ann: And then after the end of that venting session, I said to- I prayed after I got home I- by myself on my knees and I asked God the question, “God, do you think I boo Dave?”
Dave: I’m downstairs praying at this moment.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Ann: But I felt in my heart is that conviction of the Holy Spirit, of, I felt like he was saying, “Start paying attention to what you think about him and start paying attention to the words that you’re saying.”
Jim: Wow.
Ann: And… And that was a big revelation for me because I did start keeping track, like, I am continually negative about him with my thoughts. I think it starts there. And then… And I started- I realized I’m seeing all the negative in him and I’m not seeing the good.
And here’s what I thought, when I felt like God said, “I want you to cheer for him.” This is so prideful, but I thought if I cheer for him, he’ll think I’m happy and satisfied and then it will enable him to stay in this kind of not great place. Which sounds so messed up, but that’s why I didn’t cheer for him.
And I also thought, everybody’s cheering for him. He doesn’t need that from me. He thinks he’s great anyway. Which is another thing that’s really messed up. I had no idea the power that I carried as a wife.
Jim: Hmm.
Ann: He needs it from me more than anybody else and I had no idea.
Jim: That is really well said.
Ann: Hmm.
Jim: And I, I think that’s the… Yeah, if you were to look at our emotional gas tank, I don’t know about you Dave or John, but I mean, your wife is the one that gives you nine-tenths of the gas in that tank.
Dave: Oh, yeah.
Jim: It’s not… It’s not the stage.
Ann: We have no idea.
Jim: It’s not the stage or accolades.
Ann: Really?
Jim: I mean, for me, like that people will say, “Oh Jim, that was a great speech.”
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: “That was so insightful.” It just bounces off of me.
Dave: Hmm.
Ann: That’s what you say.
Jim: And… And what matters the most to me is what does Jean think of it?
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: Yeah.
Jim: You know? And that- that’s the right thing, but it’s also a very cutting thing if that’s not wielded well.
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: I… I came home one night, uh, on a fall weekend for me back in the day when I was still a Lions chaplain. I would preach twice on Saturday night, then go down to the team hotel down in Detroit, do chapel for the team so give another sermon basically.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: Come home, sleep, do three more preaches Sunday morning, and then go to the game and be on the sideline. And we probably lost. And so, then I’d come home and-
Jim: A different era for the Lions.
Dave: Yeah, a different era. Now it’s awesome.
Jim: (laugh).
Dave: Why did I… Why am I not the chaplain now?
John: New chaplain made all the difference, man.
Dave: Yeah, I guess the new chaplain did it.
John: (laugh).
Dave: But I’ll never forget this one night I crawl into bed at like 11:30 and I just make this comment to Ann and I’m exhausted. All I wanna do is go to sleep. And I said, “Man, I’m getting a lot of critiques lately on my sermons.” And back then, we had these little cards that people were supposed to write prayer requests on (laugh). They wrote critiques on, you know, in pencil and no names. So, they’re anonymous. But I was getting some negatives. And so, I just say that as I’m crawling in the bed and uh, her response was-
Ann: This isn’t.
Dave: … power… It’s just what you said, Jim.
Ann: Well, what had happened was I felt like God was starting to get control of my life, my thoughts, my words. And so, I felt like God was saying, “Pay attention to your words.” And I started asking myself the question, “Should I say this, whatever comes to my head?”
Jim: That was the first question, yeah.
Ann: Yes. Should I say it?
Jim: That’s good.
Ann: ‘Cause I’m a verbal processor. Should I say it? Asking God, “Should I say this?” And then if he gives me the green light, when should I say it and how should I say it?
So, Dave made that comment as I was getting into bed. I asked… And here’s what I thought. This is what I thought. And I would’ve said it generally. I thought, well, if you would spend more time on your sermon prep and being in the Word, your sermons would be way better.
Jim: (laugh).
Ann: I would’ve said that-
Jim: Ooh.
Dave: Which is true.
Ann: … naturally. And so, I asked God, “God, should I say that?” “No!”
Jim: (laugh).
Ann: “No.” And then I prayed this prayer, “God, should I say anything?” And then this thought came to my mind, and I said it, “I can’t imagine what it’s like to be you. Like, you have thousands of people depending on your walk with God.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Ann: “What a weighty thing to carry.” And then there was silence. And then Dave leaned in, hugged me, and whispered in my ear, “You are my life.”
Jim: Wow.
Ann: But it… But I put a plant on the stage ’cause I thought, I need women to understand the power that we carry-
Jim: Hmm.
Ann: … and how this affects our men. And so, I had a plant on the stage, and I said, “This plant is like our men. You know, we’re- we’re like, ‘This is the one I wanna marry. Look at him. He’s green and lush.’ But then we’re married a while and we say, ‘Oh look, he’s got a brown leaf and it’s my job to get rid of that brown leaf.’ So, we get our little scissors, and we prune it a little bit.”
“And then we’re married even longer, like, there’s all kinds of leaves and it’s my job to fix him. So, we see all those flaws and we get the hedge clippers out now and we’re just cutting down everything because you’re not romantic, you don’t talk anymore. All you wanna do is watch ESPN. So, we’re telling them, and our kids, we’re just chopping away to the point where there’s a stump of a man left because we’ve cut all of these great leaves off of him.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Ann: And the first time I did that it was at our church at a thing that we were doing. And there was this couple sitting in the auditorium. Everyone had left except for this couple, probably in their eighties.
Jim: Oh, my.
Ann: You guys, it makes me teary thinking of it ’cause there’s a man who’s sitting there leaned over, he’s crying, and the tears are just plopping on the floor. And his wife’s beside him. I walk up to them, I said, “What’s going on?” And she said, “I don’t know. Ever since you did that plant chopping thing, he’s been crying.” And he lifted his (laugh)… He lifted his head, and he points to the stump of the plant, he said, “That is me.”
Jim: Wow.
Ann: And she said, “I had no idea. I really thought I’ve been helping him all these years.”
Jim: Wow. Wow.
John: Mmm. Uh, this is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guests today are Dave and Ann Wilson. And, uh, wow, we’re covering some deep stuff.
Ann: Hmm.
John: And appreciate your tenderness there, Ann.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
John: Ann has written a book that we’re, uh, starting to talk about a little bit here. How to Speak Life to Your Husband: When All You Want to Do Is Yell at Him. There’s some great principles here. Dave has contributed to the book. Uh, get a copy of it. It’s… It’s gonna make a difference in your relationship. We have copies here. Uh, you’ll find details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Ann, let me ask you at this point, ’cause that is a super tender point-
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What… Think of that marriage.
Ann: I know.
Jim: They probably were married 50 years.
Dave: Oh, yeah.
Ann: Yes.
Dave: They were.
Ann: Yes.
Jim: Chop, chop, chop. I can only imagine there’s one million women listening right now-
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That are saying, “Yeah, you don’t know my husband.”
Ann: I know.
Dave: Right.
Jim: “He deserves that pruning.”
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: Right.
Jim: And… And there is a justification. And there may be a line at which there’s things that need to be talked about. How… How do you counsel somebody, a woman, a wife who’s saying, “But Ann, Bob is a horrible person?”
Ann: Yes.
Jim: Just speak to that reality as well, ’cause I want to give some relief, some oxygen to women who are really struggling in their marriage ’cause their husbands are terrible.
Ann: And I would say too, if you’re in an abusive situation-
Jim: Right.
Ann: … if your husband is abusive and it’s not a safe place to live, you need to get yourself safe. Get out of the home with your children. It’s the most loving thing you can do. I’m talking about a generally good-willed guy, you know? He…
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: He wants to have a good marriage. He’s just not sure how to go about it. And so… But what I’ve had so many women come up to me, ’cause we’ve been talking on this for years.
Dave: Yep.
Ann: And they’ll come up and say, “You don’t understand.”
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: “There is nothing to cheer. There is nothing that I can see that I can say, ‘Hey, good job.'”
Jim: Right.
Ann: And I get it. I said, “I know that that’s how it feels right now. And I’ve been to that place where all I can see is the negative. But you married him because you saw something. And so, ask God to show you, what is that something? And God sees something great in your husband. He does. He’s made in the image of God.
And so, call out the things. Ask God, God show me the greatness ’cause I’m not seeing it. Show me anything.” And when we started this, I couldn’t just start this new path like, “Oh, Dave, you’re amazing.”
Jim: (laugh).
Ann: I thought, Lord, I, I, I can’t lie, I’m not gonna lie, so how can I start small? And I started small by saying “Thank you.”
Jim: Hmm.
Ann: Hey hon, thanks for bringing in the garbage cans. Now, this is… And I think so much a part of me has been pride. Here’s why I didn’t thank him before. Whoa, I do everything around here. Who thanks me for that? You know?
Jim: Yeah. Yeah, totally.
Ann: And so, it just started out small. Thanks for… Hey, thanks for, um, doing whatever. That’s a good way to start.
Dave: And I… And I gotta say, when she first started doing it, I thought she was lying.
Ann: (laugh).
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: I look at her like… ‘Cause I mean, one night at the dinner table, she… We had three sons. They’re all married now, but they were maybe middle schoolers times. She said, “Hey, before we eat, I just wanna say something to dad.” She just turns to me and goes, “Hey, thanks for working so hard. You provide for this family, this meal. I really appreciate it.” And the boys were like, “Can we eat?” You know, it’s like… And she only did it for like-
Jim: But you’re looking for the things that are true that I’ve-
Dave: Yeah. You’re a good man, you’re a good husband, you’re a good provider. I really appreciate that. And I remember looking at her and I knew right behind her on the kitchen hutch was, you know, Love & Respect, and you know-
Ann: Shaunti’s book.
Dave: … all the books that tell this. And I’m like, “She’s doing what’s in the book.” But guess what? And men know this. My chest was like, starting to pop out.
Ann: (laugh).
Dave: Like, “I am a good man!” All right. I didn’t say anything, but it felt so life-giving.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: I was like, “Wow, look how that makes me feel.” And here’s what I realized, and this is true for women as well. Men are not motivated by critique. Neither are women. They’re motivated by affirmation. You affirm your man, he’s gonna become a better man. You put… I… One guy said, “You put a crown on him, he becomes a king.”
Ann: I feel that same passion. Part of it is I have three sons, and I have four grandsons. And I’m watching the culture and I’m thinking, our great men are losing their voices now.
Jim: Hmm.
Ann: It’s a sad day when we don’t want these good men. And I’m looking at our grandsons thinking, who are the examples? I want him to rise up and to be the man God has called him to be, not realizing back in the day is part of that being called up into the man that God wants him to be is our job as women. I… I’m a strong leader, strong woman.
Dave: Yes, she is. Yes, she is.
Jim: (laugh).
Ann: And so, when Dave and I started speaking for the Weekend to Remember for FamilyLife, I remember getting to Genesis 2 when it talks about how God made Eve to be a helper suitable for Adam. And I was like, “Oh, see.” And I was a new follower of Christ. “Why do I have to be the helper?”
Jim: (laugh).
Ann: Why… You know, why don’t-
Jim: Second class citizen?
Ann: Yeah. Why don’t I get a li… I… Why don’t I get a helper? I thought, the little helper.
Dave: (laugh).
Ann: And so, it took me a while. But I love Kristi McLelland’s teaching on the helper suitable. She’s gone into the Hebrew of what that looks like. That word helper, it felt like this menial task or we’re going- we’re helping to complete our husbands. But it also is this word, it’s a powerful word. It’s…
That word is ezer, which when it comes back to the scripture of even Deuteronomy 33:7, Psalm 20, when it… Like, listen to this, this is um, Moses’ verse, his Psalm. It says, “Hear Lord the voice of Judah and bring him into his people with your hands contend for him and be a help…” A help. That’s the word, ezer, “… against his adversaries.”
That word help is the word referred to God coming to help the people of Israel. That’s a word that’s powerful. But that word kenegdo actually means helper suitable. Kenegdo means toe to toe. That the woman was designed to stand toe to toe. And I remember Kristi McLelland saying…She’s a Hebrew culturalist, so she knows the culture. And she was in Israel, and she asked a rabbi who was in his seventies, “Rabbi, what do you think that word kenegdo means ’cause it’s never used in scripture again?”
Jim: Huh.
Ann: And he said, “Kristi, I think that God knew that there was an enemy in the garden. And it would take the man and the woman linking arms, standing toe to toe-”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Ann: “… side to side, back-to-back to defeat the enemy. That they couldn’t defeat him apart or alone. They would need each other to defeat the enemy.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Ann: And it’s exactly what you’re saying. And so, then when we were doing a broadcast with FamilyLife Today, and we had a bunch of scholars in the room, a lot of people, theologians with doctorates. And I asked them the same question.
Dave: Yeah, you know those conversations.
Jim: Yeah, those guys. Yeah.
Ann: Yeah, those guys.
Jim: We don’t know those guys.
Ann: I said, “Yeah, you guys, what do you think it means to be the helper suitable?” And they’re very fluent in Hebrew.
Dave: Dr. Jeff Myers. I don’t know if you-
Jim: Yeah, Jeff. We know Jeff. Yeah.
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: He’s in the room-
Ann: Right.
Dave: … and he makes this comment that he ended up putting in the book. And I never heard a guy say this like this. He said, “I really believe ezer kenegdo means when the man looks in his wife’s eyes, he sees the man he can become.”
John: Hmm.
Dave: And the room just got quiet, ’cause it’s almost like often we look in, uh… Like, I felt for many years, I look in her eyes and I f- I see disappointment. I’m not the man she thought I was gonna be and I’m letting her down. And that… And I sort of pulled back. I look in her eyes now, and we’ve been on a journey over decades, she is- she makes me… She… I see how great I can be through Ann now.
Um, she’s not disappointed. She’s cheering. And I- again, it didn’t take place in a week or a month or even a year. It took place over years. But she affirms and believes me and I’m a better man. And that, I think God said, “This is what can happen.” Both ways by the way. You know, it isn’t just a woman to the man. It’s both ways.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: Well, of course.
Ann: You’re both cheering for each other.
Dave: Yeah. When you understand the power God’s put in your thoughts and your, your words, you can literally bring life to your man and to your woman.
Ann: And Jim, I think you’re right, women we’re- if we go ahead of our men and just like, “Yeah, they’re… You know, they’re losers. They can’t… They’re not doing anything.” We’re gonna lose these great men.
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: And I look at Dave like he’s one of the most gifted, he’s amazing. But when I’m constantly saying the negative, he’s gonna stay at that level. But when I call him and say, “This is who you are, these are your gifts.” I think he’s wondering, “Really? ‘Cause I don’t feel that.”
Jim: Yeah. No, it’s so true. That intentionality is so critical.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: And we’re right at the end of day one, but let’s come back next time we’re gonna pick up. But let’s end for, uh, that wife that, that needs like a 1, 2, 3 step process.
Ann: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jim: So, she’s going, “Wow, that’s been me.”
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “I haven’t been intentional about, um, doing that work.”
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: And for the wife that’s saying, “Jim, why is it all on my shoulders?” I’m not saying that.
Ann: (laugh).
Jim: It’s that sensitive, isn’t it?
Ann: I know.
Jim: Men have plenty of work to do.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: We get that. But for right now, hearing from Ann who’s written the book (laugh)…
Ann: (laugh).
Jim: I mean, that- give us those insights to the, that intentionality-
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: … the need to think like you did.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: Don’t say that until I think about it.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What are the two or three things-
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: … that that wife could do today that’ll be different and start to make that turn for their marriage?
Ann: I think the greatest thing that I did is that I got on my knees and said, “God, I can’t do this. I… Evidently, I’ve been failing at how I’m trying to love Dave. I thought I was doing a good job, but I’m not. And so, God, I give you my life again. I just re-surrender-”
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: “… all of myself to you.” It’s Romans 12:1, you know, to lay your life down as a living sacrifice. So that’s the first step. God, I give you my life. I don’t know how to do this. I don’t know where to go with it, but I know that you do. And so, I’m gonna follow you. Teach me.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Ann: And then I, I know this sounds crazy, but the thing that’s changed me the most is being in God’s word.
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: It reminds me who God is and who I am in Christ. I don’t have to prove it to Dave; I don’t have to get my satisfaction from him. I already have it from our loving Father. And so, it’s kind of that renewal of your own faith, because you’re not gonna find life through your husband. It’s not gonna happen. And you will be dissatisfied. But through Jesus, I know it sounds so pat-answer-ish, but it’s not.
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: It brings us life. And then I would say just that prayer, God… It’s Romans 12:2. Don’t be conformed by this world but be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
So, the next step would be, God, start renewing my mind and show me the greatness in my husband.
Jim: Well, great steps.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And what a great book, How to Speak Life to Your Husband: When All You Want to Do Is Yell at Him. I love the title (laugh). Most women… Hey, let me just say to the guys, don’t lay this on your wife’s pillow (laugh).
Dave: Yeah, exactly.
Jim: Just, you know, just a little- a little coaching advice there. Don’t pick it up, “Hey, I am getting this book for my wife.” Find a better avenue to do that. But maybe listen to this broadcast together-
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: … as a way of starting to… Or podcast. But, uh, thank you for that vulnerability.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Thanks for being with us. I love it. You guys, I, I think that honesty is so refreshing-
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … coming from people that are kind of in the business, right?
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: Thank you.
Jim: That we should know better.
Ann: (laugh).
Jim: But we don’t. We’re all doing this together.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: And I so- am so refreshed by that.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Thanks for being with us. We’ll come back, we’ll pick it up there.
Ann: Thanks.
Jim: And, uh, in the meantime, get a copy of this book. And as we often say, for a gift of any amount, we’ll send it to you as our way of saying thank you for making a monthly pledge. And a one-time gift, same thing. According to our research, approximately 1% of our listeners and viewers contribute financially to Focus. Imagine how much more impact we could have together if that simply went to 2%. So, if you’re capable of skipping that latte today, send us that five or $10 and help transform people’s lives.
John: Hmm. Yeah, we really need to hear from you, especially during, uh, the summer months here, where giving tends to be down a bit. So, uh, call today, especially if you’ve never contributed to the work of Focus on the Family.
Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459.
Of course, uh, online, you can also donate and get a copy of Ann’s book. Our website is focusontheamily.com/broadcast.
And by the way, get in touch with us, uh, if we’ve touched on something that is really kind of sensitive for you, if you’re struggling in your marriage we do have caring Christian counselors and it’d be a privilege for us to give you a callback and to have one of them, uh, offer you a free over-the-phone consultation to kind of figure out where things are at and what are some positive steps moving forward.
On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation with Dave and Ann Wilson and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
Ann Wilson: I think the greatest thing that I did is that I got on my knees and said, “God, I can’t do this. I, evidently, I’ve been failing at how I’m trying to love Dave. I thought I was doing a good job, but I’m not. And so, God, I give you my life again. I just re-surrender all of myself to you.” It’s Romans 12:1, you know, to lay your life down as a living sacrifice.
John Fuller: Well, that’s Ann Wilson describing some of the challenges of marriage and, uh, working through issues with your spouse and how to reconnect in positive, healthy ways.
Ann and her husband, Dave, are our guests today on Focus on the Family, and we’re glad to have you along. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, we had a really insightful conversation. Probably one of those ones I classify as a little touchy when it comes to marital issues and how to make this thing we call marriage the best it can be, especially for those of us who are Christians under the guidance of the Lord and the Word of God. That’s what we want. Right? Uh, but sometimes culture seeps into us and our attitudes grow a little harder to deal with.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And Ann’s written this wonderful book, and you know, again, I think wives will feel pointed out, that’s not the goal here. But her book that she wrote (laughs), is called, How to Speak Life to Your Husband When All You Want to Do is Yell at Him. Now, do any men feel you’ve ever lived that moment with your wife?
Dave Wilson: Ha! Sure have.
Jim: Okay. And that’s okay. And we did a, I think a really good job last time talking about both sides of that, the issue, what is driving the wife to make these corrections. And Ann did a beautiful job even talking about the metaphor of a, pruning a bush.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And how we try to prune our husbands into behavior that they like. I thought it was wonderful. And if you missed last time, get ahold of us.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You can do that at the website or get the app, and you get access to all the podcasts and broadcasts, but just a really good discussion about how to change your marriage-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … from stagnation to thriving.
John: Yeah. Yeah. There’s so much good stuff here. And we’re glad to have the Wilsons back. They’re authors and speakers and, uh, show hosts for FamilyLife Today. And as you said, Jim, the book is How to Speak Life to Your Husband. We have copies of that here at the ministry. And the link is at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Ann and Dave, welcome back to Focus on the Family.
Dave: It’s good to be here.
Jim: Yeah, it’s good to have you.
Ann: Great to be here.
Jim: Yeah. It’s fun to have you here in the studios. You’re in Orlando, which is always nice as well. We’ll come see you in January, February.
Dave: You need to come (laughs).
Ann: We’re totally having you both on. I think that’d be so fun.
Dave: We would love to have you.
Jim: That’d be a good time.
John: That’d be fun.
Ann: Yes.
Jim: But, uh, again, so good. And for those listening, we’re gonna pick up. And if you’re feeling like you are not up to speed on what we’re talking about, you gotta go back, like I said, and listen and, and get in tune, ’cause these two parts will fit together very succinctly. Ann uh, okay, this is a funny way to start this. Why did you write this book-
Ann: (laughs).
Jim: … about your husband, Dave? And, uh, I mean, what was the impetus really at the core?
Ann: I think the impetus was I thought our marriage was struggling and I thought he was the problem.
(Laughter)
Ann: That’s what I thought. And so, and I think-
Dave: (Laughs) Funny, I thought the same thing.
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: It’s not me, it’s her.
Ann: Yeah. And I really thought, if you would’ve asked me, how could your marriage be great? Like, if God would get a hold of Dave, we could be amazing. That’s so prideful because it takes two. But what happened was I started talking about this journey of wanting to help Dave. And I thought I could help him by using my words to motivate him, but they weren’t motivating him. They were critiquing him. And it, the book is like a memoir. And honestly, you guys, we’ve been traveling, speaking to marriages, husbands, wives for 35 years.
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: And this is a thing we experience as women. And our heart isn’t like, oh, I’m, I married a horrible husband. Our heart is, I know this guy, at least at one point, was really great, and I think I can help him be better. And so, I think my goal is for women to realize they have incredible power. And a lot of that power comes from our words. Our motivation. I mean, who doesn’t love, maybe you don’t, Proverbs 18:21. “Death and life are in the power of the tongue.” And we’ve seen that.
And I think what has happened is I’ve realized my motivation wasn’t to change Dave. My motivation was to have a better marriage. I want a great marriage. But I realized what happened is the more I spoke life to Dave and our three sons, they started to change.
Jim: Huh.
Ann: And that’s not the motivation, but they started to change.
Jim: Well, and as you said last time, you said that it wasn’t working. The critiquing, the pruning of the bush.
John: Yeah. Yeah.
Ann: Oh, yeah.
Jim: Like, you were getting the stump.
Ann: I tried for years.
Jim: Right.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: So, I mean, even that is a good revelation. It’s healthy to be able to say, “Okay, you know, why am I gonna keep banging my head up against the wall? Let’s try something else.”
Ann: Right.
Jim: But it does take humility. Now, here’s the tender part of this. People listening, women listening to this, “Jim, it’s, it’s a dance to talk about this because it’s almost, you know, non-touchable to question a wife about how she’s treating her husband.” And I don’t want it to sound defensive, and it’s not always the wife’s fault.
Ann: No. It’s both ways.
Jim: All those things.
Ann: Right.
Jim: Because women do hear that. I mean, when they hear this program, they’re, “Oh, are you gonna put this all on me now?”
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: That’s why we have a bad sex life?
Ann: Well, here’s the point.
Jim: That’s why we have a bad this?
Ann: Yes.
Jim: That’s why we have… That’s not what we’re saying here. And it’s just-
Ann: Exactly.
Jim: Man, it’s just, back to the Proverbs, who doesn’t want that? You know, that should be the goal.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: You know, when we do our Hope Restored Marriage Intensives, that’s one of the things they start with, with you loved each other at one time.
Dave: Yeah. Right.
Jim: Now you’re here with divorce papers.
Dave: Mm-hmm.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: How can we find a path back to you loving each other again? Don’t we want that?
Ann: Yes.
Jim: Why do we want chaos and strife? So that’s the goal of what we’re talking about today. Ann, uh, in your book, How to Speak Life to Your Husband, you describe triggers, which is so good. This is the big thing I think in marriage when we have the Yerkoviches on-
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It’s all about triggers, right?
Ann: Yes.
Jim: Things you learned in your childhood that really do become that button. And us spouses are really good at pushing those buttons.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: We don’t even know where all that construction zone is in your childhood, but somehow we can go right to that pothole and just hit it.
Dave: Yep.
Jim: For you, it was being ignored at the dinner table.
Ann: Isn’t that crazy?
Jim: Tell us about that.
Ann: Yeah. And I wish somebody would’ve help me and taught me this and just kind of shared some of, if you have an issue that keeps cycling back in your marriage, I feel like it’s God saying, “I want you to look at this. Look at this. Look at this.” And our issue is always, he’s not here for me. He doesn’t notice me. He doesn’t see me. He doesn’t appreciate me. He’s gone. He’s out of it. And so as I started to dig through counseling, through the Holy Spirit, through doing some things, I realize as I go back, and some people are like, “Oh, we have to go back into our, you know, our old wounds in the past.” But our wounds in the past, if we don’t heal them, we don’t have to stay in the past, but God wants us to heal them so that we can get out of the rut.
Jim: Hmm.
Ann: And so, like at the dinner table, I’m the youngest of four. My family’s very athletic, coaches.
Dave: They were my, they were my coaches.
Jim: (laughs).
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: I played ball with her brothers, so yeah, very close family.
Ann: And I think I was in the third grade, and I remember saying like, “Hey guys, this is what happened today on the playground.” And my dad stopped me. And my dad was a good guy.
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: We didn’t grow up in the church, but he said, “Ann, now’s not your time. Your brother is a senior in high school and it’s his time, and so we’re gonna hear what he has to say.”
Jim: Wow.
Ann: And I, I’m kind of a spunky person. I’m like, “Well, when’s my time? They’re all gonna be gone when it’s my time and nobody will be at the table but you and mom, and that’s kind of boring. I wanna say what I wanna say.” And he just said, “It’s not time.” But that was very typical of my life. My parents, they were busy, and I get it now. But they were busy. They didn’t know what I was doing. And so, I got married thinking, this guy, he will see me, he will be there for me. He will help meet all those needs that I didn’t get growing up. I never knew that, never thought that. And so, what am I thinking? We get married, at first, he’s just like that. But then he’s out conquering the world. And so, when he conquers the world-
Jim: Looking past you.
Dave: Right.
Ann: Looking past, not even seeing me.
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: And again, I didn’t even know it.
Jim: Right. No-
Dave: I’m thinking I’m being a good provider, I’m doing what I’m supposed to do. And I’m doing ministry, so how do you complain about, you know, my job is God, and what’s she gonna say-
Ann: (laughs).
Jim: You can’t challenge that.
Dave: You know? And so, we’re six months in and she literally yells at me in a car as we’re driving to Nebraska. Our first job was to be the chaplain for the Nebraska Cornhuskers with Athletes in Action. And she says, “Marrying you is the biggest mistake of my life.”
Jim: Ooh.
Dave: She didn’t say a mistake. The biggest mistake. And I yelled back, “You’re right. What were we thinking?” And again, Jim and John, we did not know in that moment, all this luggage that we brought-
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: … was starting to show itself. We had no idea. We thought we’re great. I mean, my family’s two alcoholics, adultery, divorce, but I’m good. I’m new in Christ. 2 Corinthians 5, “The old is gone, the new has come.” And I believe that is all true.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: But if you don’t process your family of origin wounds, you’re bringing them.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: And they’re gonna, and we brought ’em ’cause I had never processed ’em. And again, I’m not saying I’m not new in Christ. I am new in Christ.
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: That is in the past.
Ann: The old has passed away.
Dave: But we brought it in. And so, I’m trying to show my dad I’m worth something and I’m not gonna start a church. It’s gonna be a mega church. I’m not gonna be, you know, it is just like I’m on this drive not even realizing I’m leaving her in the past.
John: Mm-hmm.
Dave: And she’s brought in that, that you just heard. Nobody saw me. Now her husband’s not seeing me. Biggest mistake of my life was marrying you. ‘Cause she felt that coming out. That’s where we were. We almost didn’t make it to year one. You know?
So here we are, year 45, you have to process that stuff. And we have. And again, not in a week or a month, but over a year, sitting down with, with a third-party counselor who can help us see that, process that, and then heal through that. And I tell you what, it actually has made our marriage much better than it would’ve been.
Ann: Oh, yeah.
Dave: But it was hard work.
Jim: Well, vulnerability does that, you know?
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: Yes.
Jim: Some of the strongest marriages I know is where they’ve suffered through-
Dave: Right.
Jim: … infidelity.
Ann: Yes.
Jim: But now you’re, you’re fileted. You’re wide open.
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: Yes.
Jim: Your spouse knows you better than you-
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: … have ever been known.
Ann: Exactly.
Jim: And some, those that can survive that tend to have really strong marriages.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Let me ask you though, Dave, ’cause someone’s gotta be asking this question in the audience. Like, what did you say when she said that? I mean, that’s a, that’s a dagger.
Dave: Which one?
Jim: In the car when she said-
Ann: Marrying you was my biggest mistake.
Jim: “My biggest mistake was marrying you.”
Dave: Well, I felt, –
Jim: What were the words outta your mouth next?
Dave: My exact response, again, we’re six months in. I’m 22. She’s 19. I yelled back. And we had been fighting for months. We’ve only been married six months, and half of it, we’re fighting. And I said, “You’re right. We should annul this thing when we get to Lincoln.”
John: Mm.
Dave: That’s how we both-
Jim: Wow.
Dave: … felt year one.
Jim: How did you get through that?
Ann: And you know, you know what happened? This is so crazy, because we go to Lincoln and we both start working with the college teams on the campus. So, Dave-
Jim: Christian leadership?!
Ann: Yes.
Jim: (laughs).
Dave: Yeah. Yeah.
Ann: And we’re, we’re, we’re following Jesus.
Dave: I meet this defensive back for the Cornhuskers, and yeah, I’m just, I’m brand new there. I don’t know what I’m doing. And he says to me, he goes, “Hey, uh, you don’t know this ’cause you’re new, but a lot of us on the football team are married.” I go, “Really?” He goes, “Yeah, would you and Ann do a marriage bible study for us?”
Jim: (laughs).
Dave: And I come home and tell her, she goes, “I don’t even like you!”
Ann: We, we don’t even like each other. What would we say? And we pulled out that old FamilyLife manual that we went to a conference-
Dave: The Weekend to Remember.
Jim: Yeah. Yeah.
Ann: And we started teaching that.
Jim: Wow.
Ann: And it’s amazing how like, if you don’t have a game plan for your marriage, or even know the intention behind it, why God created marriage, as we taught it, we started learning it. And we’ve, we’ve realized there is an enemy to our marriage-
John: Mm-hmm.
Ann: … and saving-
Dave: And it’s not your spouse.
Jim: Oh, yeah.
Dave: And, and, and you know this.
Ann: Yes.
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: What we discovered was, again, I don’t know if anybody’s marriage on the football team got better-
Ann: But ours sure did.
Dave: Ours did.
Jim: Yours did (laughs).
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: You know? And I think there’s a principle there. When you try to save your marriage, often it doesn’t work. But when you give your marriage away to sit, help others, Jesus said-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dave: “You wanna find your life? Lose it, for my sake.” That’s sort of what happened.
Jim: That’s interesting.
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: We started pouring into others thinking more about how can we help them? And every week, we’re teaching this stuff from Weekend to Remember. Now we’re speakers for that conference for 30 plus years, and we started to apply it in our home. And again, it wasn’t magical, but over years, our marriage got better.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah. No, I, that that’s a really interesting, uh, summary-
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: … of those early days. I do want to go back ’cause again, you’re, you’re so good with metaphors in this book, Ann. And, but the, uh, the idea of the, the dog cage, you would bring a dog cage out on stage.
Ann: Yes.
John: Hmm.
Jim: Tell us how that related to this very issue.
Dave: Oh, you gotta see this when she does it.
Ann: Well, I think what happens is so many of us are victims of our past and we stay these victims. And I relate it to a dog cage. And so I bring this cage on to the stage and I said, “Basically what happens is because all of us have things that have happened, every single listener, every single person, every single viewer has had things happen where it beats down your identity and your identity in Christ.”
And so, we’re in these cages and we’re trapped by our thoughts. Our thoughts about our husbands. Our marriages. Our past wounds. Our past trauma. And Jesus has opened the door. But Satan wants to keep us in our marriages in the cage locked in, thinking there’s never a way out. And there is.
Jim: Wow. That is powerful.
John: Yeah. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guests today are Dave and Ann Wilson. And we’re talking about, uh, the book that Ann has written called, How to Speak Life to Your Husband When All You Want to Do is Yell at Him. And, uh, we’d encourage you to get a copy of this book from us here at the ministry. Uh, the link is at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Ann, you know, some people struggle with, you know, our origin thing and psychology just generally.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But these things, they are indicators of what God has created in my opinion. When you look at psychology, it’s just people that are trying to be educated about how the brain works.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: God knows how the brain works-
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: … ’cause he created the brain.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: He created the brain chemistry. He created it all.
Ann: Isn’t it fascinating?
Jim: So, when they’re, when they’re discovering these things, this is not some kind of odd thing. This is explaining the way God has wired us with our pains and sorrows from our past, and how do we get out of the cage? And it’s a great use of scripture that you just had there, that he sets us free.
John: Mm-hmm.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: But isn’t it amazing when you see people in chaos?
Ann: Yes.
Jim: You know, because we, they get comfortable there.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: They get comfortable with the arguments; they get comfortable with the disorder. And you’re just going, wow, there is a much better way to go.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that’s what we’re talking about. That’s what we talk about as Christians-
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: … to being set free in Christ.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Yeah. And, and, and maybe you saw in the book, Ann has a section about neural pathways.
Jim: Well, we’re gonna talk about Helen Fisher.
Dave: You know? Which is so fascinating.
Ann: Yes.
Jim: That’s, let’s talk about Helen Fisher.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: Dr. Helen Fisher, the researcher.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: Explain that.
Ann: She, she’s so interesting because she does a lot of brain science, but she talks about a person’s way of being. And so, your way of being, like, you may not, you may be in a marriage, either the husband or the wife, and maybe you don’t yell, but you hold it inside. And I’m telling you, I, Dave can come in the door and I don’t say one word to him, but he knows exactly what I’m feeling.
Jim: (laughs).
Dave: Maybe.
Ann: It’s, it’s true. Especially if you’ve been married a little bit, like you are giving off this vibe. I’ve had women say, “I don’t yell. I, I don’t even say anything negative.” And I said, “What do you think he thinks you’re feeling?”
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: He knows, or she knows, because she was saying that is just like, it’s really something that we give off. And so, I think it’s important. She talks about too, um, just our neurological pathways. If you get in a rut neurologically, you’re always thinking the negative.
For instance, for Dave and I, I could be, I remember one time folding the clothes thinking, you know, he’s not here again. He’s off on some other thing. I’m not important. So I, that’s my rut. That’s where I go every time. All the negative that Dave isn’t doing, he’s not performing, he’s not here, he’s not leading spiritual. I could go on and on.
And I felt like God stopped me for a second and said, “What would happen instead of complaining about him, you would pray for him?”
Jim: Mmm.
Ann: That, that was a new thought. And so, I realized, if I’m going to transform my mind, when, when the scripture says, “Don’t be conformed to this world, but be transformed,” that word transformed in the Greek is actually the word, like it’s a metamorphosis. It’s a total change. And so, I realize like, it’s almost that heart of gratitude that you listen, and you hear about and you study.
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: Instead of going to the negative, I’m gonna now start thinking the positives.
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: Well, what’s, what are the good things that he’s done? And I was walking with my best friend, Michelle. We were talking about this. And she was saying like, “Rob’s always gone. He’s never here. He travels for his job. He doesn’t make it to the soccer games.” And so, she knew that I had been working on this and she’s not great with her words. And I remember asking her, “Why, why can’t you give good words to Rob?” And she goes, “Cause he doesn’t need them, and everybody else gives them to him.” But she heard somebody talk about journaling good words. And so, you’re trying to transform your thoughts, your mind, and so she starts this journal because she starts saying, “God, again, show me the good things he’s doing. Show me the great things that he’s doing for our family.”
So, she starts getting a journal, you guys, and they’re such easy things. “Hey, thanks for putting the Christmas tree lights up outside, or any Christmas lights outside. I know you hate it. I know it’s cold in Michigan, but you do it anyway. Thanks.” “Hey, I know you didn’t get to the soccer game ’til the last period, but you made it. Thank you for doing that.” So that’s all. She fills this book. It’s a, it’s a really cool journal. She fills it up for a year, doesn’t fill it, but every, these little things.
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: Gives it to him on his birthday. He sits in the chair, he opens it, and he cries the entire time.
Jim: Reads every one.
Ann: Every single word. This is our best friends. And I-
Dave: Oh, he is my best friend.
Ann: And I remember saying like, why did you cry? And he said, “Because I feel like I’m constantly failing. I feel like I’m never measuring up. I’m feeling like I’m not the dad I should be, not the husband I should be. And she knows it. She sees me all the time and she knows it, but she’s chosen to see the good in me and to see the great in me.” And, and I said, “What’s it make you feel?” He said, “I wanna be that guy. I wanna be better. I wanna, it motivates me to be the man that God wants me to be.”
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: And now imagine if she would’ve written a book of all the critiques.
Jim: The referee.
Dave: Yeah.
Jim: Being the referee (laughs).
Ann: Yes.
Jim: Foul. Penalty. Flag.
Ann: Yeah. It made, I didn’t realize it made Dave wanna run away.
Dave: Well, it’s interesting. Whenever we tell that story, like on stage, I look out in the audience and almost every guy is crying.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Women are like, “Really?”
Ann: Why do you think?
Dave: And they’re just, I mean, I’m tender when I hear it. I’m like, that is speaking life to your man. And again, we’re not saying you don’t speak truth. Truth needs to be told, too.
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: But what I try to do in the book, the only reason I’m in the book is at the end of each chapter, all I try to do for wives is say, “Hey ladies, here’s how we think. Here’s how your man thinks.” And I think the guys are like, “Read what Dave said.”
Jim: You know, it’s interesting. We spent, we have spent a lot of time learning how women think.
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: You’re right.
Jim: We have, as a culture.
Ann: Yeah. Yeah.
Jim: But I, I don’t think we have quite the amplitude or amplification of “How do men think?” ‘Cause I don’t know because they never talk.
Dave: Yeah.
Jim: You know, something like that.
Ann: Yeah, exactly.
Jim: Before we get off Dr. Helen Fisher though-
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: I wanted to mention in the book you talked about where she took these, uh-
Ann: Couples in love.
Jim: … madly in love couples.
Ann: Yes.
Jim: What was the outcome of those, measuring those couples?
Ann: That was fascinating-
Jim: Yeah.
Ann: … because she’s looking at couples that had been married 20 years or more. And both of them said, “We would say that we are madly in love after 20 years.” So, what’s the common denominator? That’s what she was looking at. She’s not looking at the negative, she’s looking at the positive. And the common denominator in all of these couples is they had positive allusion, which is fascinating to me.
John: Not illusion (laughs).
Ann: Not illusion. Yes. They, they saw their spouse better than their spouse actually saw themselves. To me, this is what I’ve said. This is, this is embarrassing. I would’ve said, “Well, they’re totally in denial.”
Jim: (Laughs) Right.
Ann: They’re not facing reality. They, they’re not even being real or honest. No. They, because they’ve been thinking of the positive, see their spouse as being better than they are and better than what their spouse would say they are. I, when I first read that, I was like, wait, how do you do that? How do you see the good?
Dave: And all I, all I add at this point, and I do this in the book, is she does that. She started doing that.
Ann: I think you’re better at that than I am.
Dave: No, I’m just saying, again, you heard our story even yesterday where we were. And as she started to believe in me and affirm me, and again, it wasn’t every day, and there’s still hard things she’s saying. But she’s starting to say, “You’re a good man. You’re a good husband; you’re a good spiritual leader.” And I’m like, “No, I’m not. You’ve never said this.”
Ann: (laughs).
Dave: And it kept coming. And I, and I, and I felt like she was saying, “You’re this man way up here.” And I’m feeling like, no, I’m not.
John: Huh.
Dave: And here’s what happened. And I think this happens for every man. I actually think this happens for women vice versa, is you say they’re this and they feel like they’re not, they rise up to become what you say they are that they aren’t yet. But they become that.
Ann: Yeah.
Dave: It’s, and I think it’s the way God wired us. Like, speak life and they will become a better man, a better woman.
Ann: Here was our biggest conflict probably in our marriage. I had this vision, expectation of what Dave should do spiritually to lead our family.
Dave: You know what it was? It was Dennis Rainey.
Ann: (laughs).
Dave: “You could be Dennis Rainey.”
John: (Laughter)
Ann: And so, he wasn’t like that. And so, I had these ideas of what he should be doing to lead spiritually, and I would let him know, or I’d put little books beside the bedside or I’d, you guys-
Dave: In the bathroom.
Ann: I would even compare him, this is embarrassing. I’d say, “Hey, you know what? It’s, I was talking to Paula Day. She said that Steve’s reading the Bible every night to the kids.” Boo. Boo. You know-
Jim: And then turn and walk away.
Ann: Yes.
Jim: Oh, my.
Ann: And I thought, oh, that’ll motivate him.
Jim: Here’s your TV dinner (laughs).
John: Wow.
Ann: And so, I’m on that now. I’m trying to change the way I think, that positive allusion. I’m asking God, show me the greatness. And so, I’m watching Dave this one night, he goes into the boys, he prays with them, but I’m-
Dave: They’re little, little boys.
Ann: I’m watching him though. He comes out and I say, “Man, I’m really jealous of you.” And he goes, “What do you mean?” I said, “You have so much power over our sons. Like when you talk, they listen to you. That, you know, they’re running around and going crazy, but you have so much power, more power than I have. And I’m really jealous of that.” That’s all I said, because now I’m seeing it. And I, I didn’t say it to manipulate. I really saw that, “Wow, look at him.”
Dave: The next night-
Ann: (laughs).
Dave: You know, it’s bedtime. I’m running up into the room, laying down, okay guys, let’s get another devo. And I didn’t realize I was so motivated. I’m like, I do. I actually do have power. They do listen to me.
Ann: Well, and you thought we were thinking the opposite, ’cause I would tell you the opposite.
Dave: Yeah. Because she was always like, “Why don’t you lead this way spiritually?” And I’m like, “I’m not like Dennis. I’m not. I lead in a different way, you know?”
Jim: (Laughs).
Dave: And she would literally use guys’ names. Steve, my co-founder, pastor guy, and it demotivated me. And when she said, “You’re really good at this and you have power,” I’m like, and I didn’t even realize it. And she did not do it to manipulate me to get me in there.
Ann: No.
Dave: But that’s how we’re wired. It’s like, I can do this. I’ve got, I’m gonna be great. Watch this. And I ran in there and the boys, I mean, I, I-
Jim: Yeah.
Dave: I tear up now thinking those, those, you know, those days are gone.
Jim: Yeah. No, that’s really good. And those-
Dave: And I, and I seized it.
Ann: Yes.
Jim: And let’s end here.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: We’re right at the end. Um, Jesus is the standard.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: So, when it comes to love and truth, He-
Dave: Right.
Jim: … is the expert in expressing them because He created them (laughs).
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: And you know, I think at times, and I, I don’t know if, it sounds like we’ve all felt this way, Dave, but that expectation that we can be perfect and we’re not, and for that reason alone, we’re failures.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Because we’re not perfect. We’re not Jesus.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: How do you coach wives to really get there? To say, you know, cut, cut ’em some grace.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: And then make that turn? ‘Cause we, we can’t be, we want to be.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: I wish I could be perfect.
Ann: Yeah.
Jim: Wouldn’t that be awesome to be perfect?
Dave: (laughs).
Ann: And our spouse is always gonna bug us.
Jim: Well-
Ann: And they’re gonna do things that bother us.
Dave: Not always. Come on.
Jim: (laughs).
Ann: No.
Dave: Gimme a little slack.
Ann: No, I’m just saying-
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: At times, not always.
Dave: Right.
Ann: I’m saying as we’re married and time goes on, there are times that we’re gonna be bugged, let down, disappointed. That’s just a part of marriage; that’s a part of life. And, and I’m not saying that your husband’s perfect, and maybe he’s failing in so many ways. But I just realized it wasn’t working, what I was doing.
Jim: Mmm.
Ann: But the power of the gospel is we see all the flaws. Jesus sees all the flaws in us, all of them. He knows all of it. And yet He continues to pursue us. Love us. Love us unconditionally. And that’s the beauty of marriage. We see everything. We know everything about each other. And yet Dave continues to love me and pursue me, and my goal is that our, our marriage would be a reflection of Jesus.
Jim: Yeah. That is so good. And what a great book. It’s a, it’s definitely a, a topic starter.
Ann: It is (laughs). It is.
Jim: How to Speak Life to Your Husband When All You Want to Do is Yell. And all the ladies said, “Amen.”
Dave: (laughs).
Jim: But, uh, it may not be effective, so, uh, that’s what we’re here to talk about. And I hope you’ve enjoyed these last two days.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I’ve certainly enjoyed talking with you.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: There’s so many resources that come to mind, John. Our counseling team, Hope Restored, where we offer intensive counseling over a few days. It has an 80% post-two-year success rate. If your marriage is really in trouble, you need Hope Restored.
And of course, Ann’s great book. You can get that through Focus on the Family. And when you contact us, I want to challenge you to consider a monthly pledge to the ministry.
Charitable giving is typically down during the summer months, and we’re feeling that right now. And we need our friends to stand with us and let us know you support what we’re doing, especially here in the leaner summer months.
If you listen to the broadcast or podcast or watch on YouTube, I invite you to partner with us right now so we can continue to strengthen marriages and offer resources to hurting families. You provide the fuel that makes all this possible. So, a monthly pledge would be great, or a one-time gift as well. And let me say thank you in advance for your generosity.
John: Donate today and learn more about our Hope Restored marriage intensives, and request your copy of the book, How to Speak Life to Your Husband when you call 800, the letter A, and the word family. 800-232-6459. Or visit focusonthefamily.com/broadcast for all the details and links.
Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
