Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Day One

Dr. Kevin Leman: So if he gets hammered, or she gets hammered in their home, and they’re hammered in the peer group, out there, where’s a kid go?

John Fuller: That’s psychologist, Dr. Kevin Leman helping us to understand, uh, through the eyes of a hurting child, just what’s going on inside. You know, as parents, we want the best for our kids, and when tough situations come, and they inevitably do, we can either help them or hinder them. You’ll hear how to help today, from Dr. Leman, on Focus on the Family. Thanks for joining us, I’m John Fuller, and your host is Focus president and author, Jim Daly.

Jim Daly: Uh, John, we have a live studio audience around us, and they’re gonna sit and listen and then we’re gonna get to a couple of questions hopefully at the end of the program. So, say hello.

Audience: Hello. Hi.

Jim: (laughs) And then we’re gonna go from there. So, um, it is great to have, uh, one of the most popular guests here at Focus on the Family, Dr. Kevin Leman-

John: Hm.

Jim: … uh, back with us. Um, here’s a news flash, we live in a sinful and broken world. And our kids are, uh, going to run into a lot of disappointment in life, just like we all do. But we need to understand as parents, how to help them through that and how to, hopefully, uh, be healthy in our parenting so that our children are healthy in their journey. And that’s the goal. Uh, we want to offer you that kind of help here as Focus on the Family. I know that’s, uh, Dr. Kevin Leman’s heart as well, in writing the book, When Your Kid is Hurting.

John: And he has written, I think, over 60 books now. He’s been on-

Jim: Ha.

John: … Focus on the Family-

Jim: Wow.

John: … dozens of times. And, uh, he has lived this out. He’s got five grown children. And I can’t remember how many grandkids, it’s-

Dr. Leman: Four kids.

John: Okay.

Dr. Leman: Four grandkids. Yeah.

John: And, uh, he and his wife, Sande, uh, life in Tucson, Arizona.

Jim: Dr. Leman, welcome back to Focus.

Dr. Leman: Hey, it’s my pleasure to be here. This is always like home.

Jim: (laughs) Well, we love it.

Dr. Leman: So, uh, you know, to a, Focus on the Family, you know, I’ve spent my life dealing with families, trying to do my part, not only personally, but helping people around the world understand it can be done.

Jim: Yeah. Let’s start there. Um, so many parents today, we feel like we’re up against s- a tsunami that others before us never encountered. That the culture today is damaging out kids, Hollywood, uh, politics, the whole bit. Is it really different than 20 years ago?

Dr. Leman: Yes.

Jim: 40 years ago?

Dr. Leman: Yes. It is.

Jim: And in, in what ways?

Dr. Leman: Well, y- y- you just turn on television or Google or Yahoo and you’ll see the latest. It’s a shooting, it’s gang violence, it’s, it’s just, it’s pervasive in our society. And culture rules. But, I know, myself, uh, you talk about how parents feel overwhelmed, as an author, when I thought about doing a book called, When Your Kid Is Hurting, I thought, where do you start? Because it seems to me in our society today, in fact, I tackled this in a book called Have a New Kid By Friday. Every place I go, Jim and John, I run into parents who say, “Oh, Dr. Leman, we are so glad you’re with us, because we too want…” What? “Happy, happy children.” And it seems like the goal for parents today is they want happiness to reign in each of their children.

Jim: What should be the goal?

Dr. Leman: Well, I pointed out in that book, an unhappy child is a healthy child.

Jim: (laughs) I like that.

Dr. Leman: And there’s times that your son or daughter has to be what? Unhappy. And so, if that’s your, your goal, your onset as the parent, is to create this happy, happy child, good luck, because culture does reign. And unfair things are gonna happen to your kids. It’s not a great world, like you, it’s a fallen world. And all those maladies of life are out there waiting for your kids. And the initial reaction as a parent is what? Protect them.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Leman: and put them under the bushel. And, and that’s where I really, uh, found myself lying awake at night thinking, “Okay, wh- wh- what do we do here?” How, how do I help that parent understand that part of what this book is about, it’s almost like a, an art form. Uh, it’s the words you chose to use with your kids that make a difference.

Jim: Well, y- you’ve identified in the opening the three basic fears that children have.

Dr. Leman: Right.

Jim: Let’s start there. Lets’ talk about these basic fears that kids have.

Dr. Leman: Rejection. Uncertainty. Okay. And fear itself. And there’s not a kid today going to school from, especially from the 4th or 5th grade up, who’s thinking to him- or herself, “I hope today isn’t my day. My day to be singled out, laughed at, mocked out.” Whatever.

Jim: Now, let me, let me highlight this, because I think even in our day, um, that bullying was occurring in some form or another. And I would say today, yeah, because of social media and other tools at the hands, that, of children today, it’s amplified. So the fear of rejection th- there’s a heightened fear of rejection in today’s culture, maybe than what I experienced in the 70s growing up, 60s and 70s. Is that fair?

Dr. Leman: Yeah, it can happen in a lifespan of a s- mosquito. I mean-

Jim: What does that look like? Describe it.

Dr. Leman: Well, it’s the best friend forever, you know. You’re 11 year old daughter and her buddy, little Rebecca, they do everything together. I mean, they hold hands, they’re so cute. You know, and all of a sudden, sh- there’s a split, because Rebecca’s best friend forever happened to look at the boy she thought was cute in the 5th grade. And that’s where it starts.

Jim: Uh-huh.

Dr. Leman: Now you go, you know, a kid today, 16 years old, a lot of them want to drive. Some of them don’t, interesting enough, it’s interesting about Millennials. But, the kid who wants to drive a car, you know, you go get a permit, you take instruction, some parents are smart, like we did once and hired a, a driving instructor to teach our youngest. I did four, I said, “The driving instructor can do the fifth.

Jim: (laughs)

John: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: I’m done.” Um-

Jim: And that child’s the best driver.

Dr. Leman: Yeah.

Jim: (laughs)

John: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: (laughs) Absolutely. By far. But anyway, I digress. But we prepare kids to drive a car. It’s a $3,000 lethal weapon. Okay. He gets the permit, she gets the license. Life goes on. We put the new Goliath in a kid’s hand in the 3rd grade.

Jim: Huh.

John: You’re looking at-

Dr. Leman: A cell phone.

John: Yeah.

Jim: That’s, yeah.

Dr. Leman: Okay. And I’m telling you, that’s a lethal weapon. Because the nasty things that come from the former best friend forever about the 11-year-old girl can be devastating.

Jim: It gives the tongue unlimited access.

Dr. Leman: Absolutely. Kids are just run over today. And there’s no filters. I mean, we could go on and on.

Jim: So, in that area, let’s go to a practical resolution. How does a parent respond when they have that child that’s being run over through social media? What can they do?

Dr. Leman: Listen. But there’s a second part of that: listen. And a third part: listen some more. Because every emotion in you, when you hear about the cruel and untrue things a kid said about your 11-year-old daughter, okay, calling a kid a slut, okay-

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: … at 11. You think that happens? It happens all the time.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: So we live in an era where kids have access to terminology that maybe we didn’t have years ago. They see it everyplace, and it’s vicious. So, I say you listen, you listen, you listen. You stop yourself from doing what you’d like to do. You know, someone once said, “Oh, I know the problem here, you need to get in touch with your feelings. And if you get in touch with your feelings, you’ll know the right thing to do.” That is terrible (laughs) advice for anybody, ’cause you’ll go kill somebody if you get in touch with your feelings when someone’s harming your kid.

Jim: Huh.

Dr. Leman: And so, after you’ve listened, I like the proactive, suggestion. One of the suggestions I give in the book is for this 11 years kid, who’s just been hammered, doesn’t want to go to school.

Jim: Right.

Dr. Leman: Honey-

Jim: I don’t feel well today.

Dr. Leman: … I understand why you don’t want to. If I were you, I would feel the same way. But maybe that’s a time to share a story from your heart about where you got ripped off from your best friend.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: Or somebody made you the target for the day. And you use what I call Vitamin E, which is encouragement. The, “Honey, I’ve got the faith in you that you’re gonna be able to, and I say run toward the fear.”

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: But here’s the other part of that, “Honey, listen, you just got to remember I’m, uh, I’m 30 years older than you, and, uh, you just have to trust me on this one. I just want to give an idea to you, and, and maybe you’ll take it on, maybe you won’t. Just an idea. It’s gonna be a rough day. You know that. I know that. But at lunch, at cafeteria, look for a kid that’s sitting by themself. And sit across from them. And just introduce yourself to them. ‘Hi, I’m Janie Smith, I never had the pleasure of meeting you.’”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Leman: “And start a conversation with that kid. And then come home at the end of the day and tell me how your day went.” And I guarantee you, I guarantee you that that kid is gonna learn something about the heart and relationships that would, they would never learn-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: … by, you know, s- saying the traditional things that parents would say to a kid.

Jim: Hm. Kevin, so often, um, that child may be embarrassed because of what’s happened. So the listening on the parent’s side is doable, but they’ve got to be saying something. So what happens when you have that child that’s withdrawn, even from the parent, and not open about talking about what’s going on?

Dr. Leman: You give the permission for the kid to have the feelings that they have. What we tend to do with kids is we tell them things like, “Honey, you shouldn’t feel that way.” As a caution to parents who are listening, never “should” on your kid.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: It really just essentially says, “You didn’t measure up.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: You fell short.”

Jim: Over and over.

Dr. Leman: You want to use that Vitamin E, that encouragement. “Honey, you know, I think I would feel just like you. Exactly like you.”

Jim: Right.

Dr. Leman: “But you know what? I have the confidence in you.” Now there’s the high-octane in the kid’s emotional gas tank right there. “I have the faith in you, ’cause I know you. And I know you have it within you to face that tough thing.”

Jim: Hm. Yeah.

Dr. Leman: And, and even when kids are hammered and you look at the situation, hey parent, can you see what your kid did right in that situation? Can you say to them, “Honey, I’m so proud that you didn’t strike back, like most people would. And even though they hammered you, you put a smile on your face, and you walked away.”

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: And then sometimes, I think you have to give kids what I call pocket answers. And somebody’s mocking a kid out because they, they slipped and stumbled or something. And kids mock them out, “Yeah, you’re right. You know what? I think I’d put my feet on the wrong legs.” I mean, come up with some kind of a one-liner that makes light of it.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: I’m a guy who’s known for using humor. And I remember being on the The View with those crazy ladies. Well, how do you defend yourself with all those ladies on The View? I know how Kevin Leman does it. And I use it with humor. And so sometimes, giving your kid some ways of handling those tough curve balls in life, just keeps the enemy at bay for a while-

Jim: Hm. Right.

Dr. Leman: … to give you a chance to recoup and to move forward. ‘Cause it’s tough.

Jim: Yeah. And it’s tool for them to use. I like that idea. That’s on rejection. Uncertainty, what do you mean by uncertainty? That this is one of the, a child’s deepest fears?

Dr. Leman: Well, again, you don’t know if today is (laughs) your day. You, you, you live your life as an adolescent, in particular, walking on eggshells.

Jim: Huh.

Dr. Leman: And you don’t know what’s going to happen. It can, it can turn in a matter of seconds.

Jim: And are you talking about the world at large? The various, uh, crisis-

Dr. Leman: No.

Jim: … that can occur, and?

Dr. Leman: No. Not really. Because in the book, I talk about those out-there experiences.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Leman: And that’s the shootings and the, an- and the floods. And, you know, again, I, I say let’s be proactive. Let the kid see that you right a check to the Red Cross to help those flood victims. Uh, let the kids do a car wash to raise money to send blankets and supplies. I mean, there’s lots of ways of getting kids, uh, you want them to be sensitive to the world around them. But when you look at your kid’s life, look at our two kids’ life. Wh- where is there life? And, and wh- where’s the centerpiece? It, it’s the home and it’s mom and it’s dad, or it might be a relative, or their school, or their church. And most of us would agree, our kids’ world is very small.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Leman: Until you put Goliath in their hand. That cell phone. And then, everything’s open.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Leman: It’s all up for grab. So, is there a protective nest? Is your home a harbor where kids feel safe? Everybody finish this sentence: You’re in good hands with…

Audience: All-

Jim: Allstate.

John: Allstate.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: That’s been around since-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: … since I was a little boy, and I’m near death. I’m telling you.

Jim: (laughs)

John: (laughs)

Audience: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: But, you know, that’s how a kid needs to feel. So, if he gets hammered, or she gets hammered in their home, and their hammered in the peer group, out there, where’s a kid go?

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: And what is it that you put in your home that’s gonna have your kid reject temptation?

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: Everything from smoke this, drink this, snort this, et cetera, to just being hammered by kids. I love to teach kids. At Leman Academy of Excellence, our charter schools, I go into the classroom. And I always talk to the kids about being kind and respectful. And I say, “Are you a kind class?” And it’s really fun, ’cause all the kids will say, “Yes, Dr. Leman. We’re a kind class.” And they’ll say it in unison.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: I said, “But, don’t you know that there are people who are mean to you?” Yeah, well, the next time someone’s mean to you, I’ve got a suggestion. Just look at them and say, “Oh, Dr. Leman said that you don’t feel good about yourself-

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: … because you just put somebody down.”

Jim: Interesting.

Dr. Leman: You know what? It’s called psychological disclosure. But it takes a lot away. And in a peer group, I’m just telling you, you need to give those little pocket answers somehow to your kids, so they can help defend themselves from the wolves that are yipping at their heels.

Jim: Hm. Boy. This is good. This is normal, unfortunately, kind of a sinful, normal human interaction that we do.

Dr. Leman: You were an athlete.

Jim: I was.

Dr. Leman: I heard-

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: … so- I, I heard of some of your exploits last night at dinner. I have to tell you that. But, anyway, you know, as a guy growing up, how smart is it to show your weakness? Not very.

Jim: Certainly not on a football field.

Dr. Leman: They’ll devour you.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: You have to pretend, okay, that didn’t hurt. I can (laughs) remember, as a kid, as a college kid, getting ready to play a double header against Illinois Wesleyan University. And the coach walks by my locker room, and his name was Royner Green. I want to give the guy credit. He coached out of Middletown, Ohio and coached a NBA, hall-of-famer, by name of Jerry Lucas. Well, he was our baseball coach at North Park University in Chicago. He’s walking by my locker, he says, I mean, not at me, just sort of an oblique statement, two guys next to me getting their stuff together. He says, “Uh, Leman, I don’t think we’re gonna need you this weekend.”

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: (laughs) I remember, I cry thinking about it to this day. I was, I thought, “Oh, gosh. You have to say it in front of everybody else?” So I hightail it back to the dorm. Words hurt.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: Words make a difference. Parents need to understand it. And that arsenal of encouragement, what I call Vitamin E, you can turn, uh, uh, a kid around.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: You know, our schools have been, uh, so successful and it’s interesting, because the culture of the school, when I look back at it now, started years ago, when I was a head resident of the dorm. And the dean talked me into being a head dorm rat, where the football team was quartered.

Jim: Oh, not good.

John: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: Not good at all.

Jim: I know where that’s going.

Dr. Leman: They put the head resident in the hospital. Some guy broke his eye socket. You know, I’m, I told the dean, “Now, dean, my momma didn’t raise no dumb kids. I ain’t going over there.”

Jim: Right.

Dr. Leman: And he said, “Kevin, you’re the guy that can do it.” And show you how stupid I am, I took the assignment on. But one of the things we did, is we met the football players at the curb. And my skinny little, scrawny assistants, carried their bags to their room. And we changed the culture of that dorm to the point where the University of Arizona Vice President for University Affairs, gave myself and the dorm what they called a student personnel award. We changed the culture by what? Servicing other people.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: And what we’ve done at our schools, is we meet kids at the curb. We bring those little ankle biters right in to the safety net of our schools. Parents love it. But we get to see the cars. We know the families. And so, I look back at my life, and I see the connection between what I learned as a young guy, and what I’m-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: … trying to dispense to parents today, that it’s the words we chose to use with people that make all the difference in the world. And so if your kid’s getting beaten up out there in the peer group, which is easy to do, and comes home and he’s hammered, or she’s hammered for everything under the sun, good luck.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: It’s not gonna work out well.

Jim: And Kevin, again, this is great advice and good insights. Uh, the, uh, the issue of the broken home. I want to touch on that before-

Dr. Leman: Oh, boy.

Jim: … we end today, and, and jump into next time. And, uh, I know you’ll be willing to stay with us. But, what about that idea where kids are living in a, uh, you know, a difficult environment at home? Mom and dad aren’t getting along. Maybe the divorce has already happened. Unfortunately, it’s common place whether you’re in a secular home or a Christian home, divorce is happening at, uh, the highest rate in the country’s history. So, the, the issue and the question I have for you is, how, how do we help as adults, as those parents, how can we help our kids in these areas of fear in the modeling of marriage and the modeling of family and how it should be done? I mean, uh, I think the most fearful kids today are kids in homes that are dangerous.

Dr. Leman: The number one fear for a kid today, I think, is my f- my parents will get a divorce.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: I think the two things, if you ask me what two things are the most hurtful, divorce and the best friend forever split up kind of thing.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Leman: Those young relationships with kids. We could do a whole program on how to help, uh, kids who are a product of divorce. Parents say things that are so stupid, like, “Oh, it’s not your fault.” Okay. So we’re starting off talking about fault, which isn’t a good place to start off. There’s no win-win divorce I’ve ever seen. And we live in a culture where you go into a, a Hallmark store and you’ll see Congratulations on Your Divorce.

Jim: That’s amazing.

Dr. Leman: Great. You know what? Divorce hurts. And what do we do as parents? We split them in half like a loaf of bread. And we say, “All right, 50% here, 50% there.” Kind Solomon had something to say about that once, if I remember. Not a good idea. If you parents are so cool, you’re so interested in moving, you two move. Let the kid stay in their home, okay. And parents, extend the olive branch to that ex, I don’t care if he’s a slime ball, if she’s a slime ball. Scum of the Earth, you’re so mad, you, you know, your, your hurt. He did this, she did that. Do not lambaste your ex. Or your son or daughter will turn that parent into the Time magazine “Father of the Year.”

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: Because that’s the natural instinct in a parent, they want to protect, they want to balance things out. So, you, you say you don’t want to put your kid in the middle, you just have as soon as you open your mouth about your mate.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Leman: So when the kid says, “I miss my daddy.” “Honey, I know you miss your daddy.” “No, I wanna see my daddy now. I wanna go on a plane.” “He’s three states away, honey. Wouldn’t that be great to go on a plane right now and see dad?” Now, notice the tone here. “Wouldn’t that be great?” So you’re granting in fantasy what you can’t in reality.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: ‘Cause number one, as a single mom, now, you can’t afford that airplane ticket. It’s highly impractical, ’cause dads a traveling salesman, all those things. But you grant him f-… “Wouldn’t that be great to hop on that plane and see dad? I know you miss him, and that’s understandable. Honey, I know you’re hurting. But listen, here’s a thing, tonight, after dinner, why don’t you give him a call?”

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: And so, you look for ways, okay, of negotiating this tough curveball this kid’s been hit with in life.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: And you give him that Vitamin E.

Jim: I- and that, that is so good. I think one of the most difficult letters that I’ve read that have come into Focus on the Family over the years, was from a, a grown woman who recounted the divorce of her parents when she was a little girl. And, um, you know, her dad, I assume, tried to do the best he could, saying, “Your mom and I aren’t capable of being together. So, I’m gonna be leaving. But I’m gonna be there for you. I’ll see you on the weekends. I’ll see you on your birthday.” Made all the promises. And then never kept one.

Dr. Leman: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And she actually never saw her father again.

Dr. Leman: Hm.

Jim: Uh, at the time of that letter, she was now in her late 20s. And the divorce probably happened when she was about nine or 10. So, think of that, 20 years go by. And the father that said, “I’ll be there for you,” never was. And you never saw the person again. That’s devastating for a child, obviously. That’s the fear of what breakup does.

Dr. Leman: And that influences that kid’s view of who All Mighty God is.

Jim: Right.

Dr. Leman: Okay. The trust factors. But, hey, parents, couple of things quickly, ’cause I know we need to take a break, but don’t hide your tears. I cry easily. I cry at supermarket openings-

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: … when they cut the ribbon.

Audience: (laughs)

Jim: Well, that’s a big event.

Dr. Leman: Yeah. It’s a big event. Uh, but, you know, wh-, uh, wh- when you see your kid crying, go and put your arms around them.

Jim: Right. It’s a message.

Dr. Leman: You don’t even have to say a word. Learn to cry together. Learn to miss things that used to be. Keep routines as much as you possibly can. Try to avoid as many changes as you can, ’cause that’s such a tough time for a kid.

Jim: Yeah. Kevin, this has been terrific. And we are gonna continue, so we can come back next time. Uh, I do want to cover depression in children. I think that’s, uh, epidemic right now. We have suicides going on in high schools and junior highs. And it’s important that we cover that, if for no other reason to equip us as parents to how to talk about this with our own children, and how they can be a friend to those around them. But before we end today, I do want to work in maybe one question from the audience-

Dr. Leman: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … sitting around us. So, does somebody have, uh, a question as you’ve been sitting here. Sure. Come to the microphone. Go ahead and give us your first name and where you’re from.

John: Hello, I’m John, and I’m from South Dakota. And thank you Dr. Kevin Leman for being here. But you talk about putting Goliath into the hand of your child. So, I was just wondering if you have any practical s- like tips as in to what stones can you put into David’s hand?

Jim: Hm. Uh-huh, there you go.

Dr. Leman: Well, again, uh, uh, I was on a television once, and this guy sort of sarcastically said, “Well, I’ll tell you the truth, Doctor, uh, it seems to me what you’re talking about is just common sense.” I said, “Oh, thank you very much. Appreciate that. I know a lot of people in my profession that don’t make a lot of sense in my biased opinion.”

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: But, you know, parents, you’re the one, you’re the one that has all the keys. You got all the gold in your back pocket. Your kid wouldn’t have underwear on today, quite frankly, if you didn’t buy it for them. So who’s kidding who? So who purchases that cell phone? And what kind of expectations do you have for that kid who has a cell phone? I mean, I think you build things in where a kid realizes that this isn’t just a right here, this cell phone, this is a privileged. And with it comes all kinds of things. And as a parent, you have to know where your kid’s going with that cell phone. So everything from passwords, whatever, you just have to use some good ol’ common sense.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: But, you’ve seen it in grocery stores. You’ve seen kids on appliances, all you parents who are watching us, I feel like I’m in this middle of a fishbowl here.

Audience: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: But you’ve seen kids who are how old? Three. And they have a cell phone in their hand. They know exactly how to cue things up on it, et cetera. So, it’s, uh, way, way too much.

John: I saw a stroller with a tablet holder.

Dr. Leman: Oh, yeah.

Jim: (laughs)

John: As they were pushing through the supermarket.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: So, it’s crazy. Uh, so parent, you need to exert authority, not as an authoritarian, there’s a big difference. When we come back tomorrow, maybe we’ll get a chance to talk about that difference, ’cause it’s really important to understand what true authority is.

Jim: Well, we want to do that. Uh, Dr. Kevin Leman with us today on Focus on the Family. His book, When Your Kid Is Hurting. What a great discussion we’ve started. Uh, let’s continue that, come back next time and cover some of the things that, uh, practical helps that parents need to understand their kids, and where they’re at emotionally, physically, and, uh, and really to do the job of parenting. Uh, here at Focus on the Family it’s why we exist. And, uh, supporters help underwrite this effort in order to allow us to accomplish the mission. Uh, thousands of parents call us or write us or ask for help every month, and your support makes it all possible. Uh, when you make a monthly pledge, which is the best way to support the ministry, that way it evens out our budgeting, and it helps us tremendously if you’re that regular, monthly supporter. Uh, if you do, uh, for any amount, I mean, that can be $25 a month, if you can do that, that’s great, but for any amount, uh, we will send you a copy of Kevin’s book, When Your Kid Is Hurting, as our way of saying thank you for standing with us to help those that are in need. Uh, also, if you’re not able to be a monthly supporter, give a gift of any amount, and we will send you the book as our way of saying thank you.

John: Donate and get this book at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or call 1-800 the letter A and the word FAMILY. And, uh, when you get in touch, if we’ve surfaced some issues that you’d like to talk through with one of our caring Christian counselors, they are available for you, as well.

Jim: Kevin, let’s do it, uh, let’s come back next time and hit some of these issues. Thanks for being with us today.

Dr. Leman: You’re welcome.

John: And on behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back tomorrow when we continue the conversation with Dr. Kevin Leman, and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Day Two

Dr. Kevin Leman: There’s not a kid today going to school, especially from the fourth or fifth grade up, who’s thinking to him or herself, “I hope today isn’t my day, my day to be singled out, laughed at, mocked out,” whatever.

John Fuller: Popular author, radio and TV guest and psychologist, Dr. Kevin Leman is back with us today on Focus on Family, sharing trusted advice to help your child navigate the hurts, and disappointments, and fears that they experience. I’m John Fuller, and we have a studio audience with us, here, and your host is Focus president and author Jim Daly.

Jim Daly: Hey, studio audience.

John: (laughs)

Jim: Say hi.

Audience: Hello!

Jim: It’s good to have you here. Dr. Kevin Leman, great to have you back for the-

Dr. Leman: Thank you.

Jim: … discussion. Uh, man, we hit it last time. We, uh, talked about the fears kids have. Uh, if you missed the discussion last time, get the CD or the download, uh, get the app. It’s free, yeah, for your smartphone. That works, too. Uh, today I wanna dive in a little deeper into the mind of a child who’s hurting. I think this is something that’s an epidemic within schools, this idea of depression and loneliness, and where kids are at today. Um, Dr. Leman has a wonderful book i- titled, When Your Kid is Hurting. And I can’t wait to hear more from Dr. Leman. Uh, welcome back.

Dr. Leman: Hey, it is so good to be here, as I said-

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: … many times. I’m among friends. And, uh-

John: You are.

Jim: You are.

Dr. Leman: Nothing like being around friends and trying to help families negotiation the tough waters of life.

Jim: Now, let me say part of you, you came up pretty tough. You talk about your testimony. You didn’t have a great GPA. You were the guy that was never gonna (laughs) amount to anything.

Dr. Leman: That was kind of you.

Jim: (laughs)

John: (laughs)

Jim: It was kind of me. But, um, you are a standard of hope for so many parents that have difficult children. (laughs) They’re going, “Hey, if Dr. Leman can do it, so can you.”

Dr. Leman: Well, there’s truth in that. You know? We started these schools, and I wish my high school teachers in particular were alive to see-

John: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: “Leman Academy of Excellence. That must be a distant relative.”

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: “That certainly couldn’t have been Kevin.”

Jim: They may be wiping their brow as-

Dr. Leman: Yeah.

Jim: … they say that, “Wow, that Kevin Leman actually got somewhere.” (laughs)

Dr. Leman: My guidance counselor told me he couldn’t get me in reform school.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: That’s a quote.

Jim: That’s a bad, uh, starting position.

Dr. Leman: Yeah.

Jim: But you did-

Dr. Leman: It was.

Jim: … it, in God’s grace and His wisdom.

Dr. Leman: God’s grace. I had a mother who prayed for me every day.

Jim: And we love moms-

Dr. Leman: And we talk about hurting-

Jim: … who pray.

Dr. Leman: … kids. And I guess I’m saying, I guess everybody knows you pray for your kids.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: But you have to cover your kids in prayer. And your kids are different. Okay? I have five of ’em. They all go different paths. King Solomon says, “And He will direct your paths.” Notice it’s plural. And so you know, prayer is just part of, of what it takes to be a good parent today.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: And there’s parents who say, “Hey, Leman. You have no idea. I’m wearing out the carpet in my knees.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Leman: “But I don’t see progress with my kid.” Well, hopefully you’ll live to see it.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: You know, you plant the seeds, and you let God’s Holy Spirit work in kids’ lives, and we get some surprises along life’s way.

Jim: Yeah, so true. I think one of the great things about your story is, y- y- y- you experienced some very low points. And you felt rejection, and you felt pain and hurt. Kids can go one of two ways. They get hard about that, and then they start acting out. Or that sensitivity becomes core to who they are. And they have great empathy. You seem to be that adult who grew up in that way. Is that a fair kinda view of it? I mean, wha- What drew you into psychology as a Christian, as a-

Dr. Leman: Well, I had a sister who was perfect, a brother who was near perfect. And I figured those were the stars. Um, I couldn’t get in college, got thrown outta Cub Scouts. M- My mother took me to JOY Club. I hated that sucker.

Jim: (laughs)

Audience: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: That was a bad one.

Jim: (laughs) You hated JOY Club?

John: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: Oh, yeah.

Jim: That says it all right there, right? (laughs)

Dr. Leman: Jesus, Others, and You. I remember that, but I hated it.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: Flannel graphs. Can you imagine flannel graphs?

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: How exciting that was?

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: Oh my goodness. But you know, it’s interesting, because all the things my mother poured into me as a kid, I remember them as adult today. (laughs) Isn’t-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: … that interesting?

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: So there’s encouragement for parents.

Jim: Well, you loved your mom. That’s-

Dr. Leman: And you-

Jim: … evident.

Dr. Leman: And you do the right thing, and, uh, yeah. So a lotta people wrote me off. But see, it was a teacher who pulled me aside and said, “Kevin, do you think you could ever use those skills you have- ”

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: ” … for something positive in life?” I’m not making this up. That’s the first time, the only time a teacher ever said to me-

Jim: Wow.

Dr. Leman: … that I had skills. And she said, “I’ve seen you take over a class. Do you think you could ever use those things for something positive?” And when I’m speaking in front of 10,000 people, I think of old Eleanor (laughs) Wilson, God (laughs) rest her soul, (laughs) who said, “Kevin, do you think you could use those skills?”

Jim: Look at the power of that comment. You remember it like it was yesterday.

Dr. Leman: Oh, I do.

Jim: You-

Dr. Leman: Brings tears to my eyes. (laughs) That’s g- what I call vitamin E, encouragement. Parent, do you realize what you have in your back pocket-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: … with just the words you choose to use with your kids? Look at your kids. They’re all different.

Jim: What about that parent, and I wanna speak to that parent that is trying to serve the Lord, sees the world in black and white ways, righteousness and, and sin, and I get all that. And certainly, as a believer I understand that. But speak to that parent that is relentless with the rules and doesn’t understand the heart of a child, that they’re in a tough spot. That encouragement goes a long way for that little boy or that little girl.

Dr. Leman: Well, I, I stole it from Josh McDowell, my friend. He said, “Rules without relationship lead to rebellion.” And by the way, I don’t know who Josh stole it from, but-

Jim: (laughs) Yeah, we repeat-

Dr. Leman: (laughs)

Jim: … that often, here.

Dr. Leman: But it is so-

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: … good, because it’s just not rules. The Pharisees had the rules, but didn’t have the relationship.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: You know, King Solomon uses the word heart three times in Proverbs 3, one through six. And it’s easy to have it in your head. I tell businessmen, CEOs, when I go and speak to y- YPO groups, “You see yourself as a visionary, Mr. CEO. Well, let me tell you something. You can be successful with a vision that comes through your head. But you really wanna be successful, have it come from your heart- ”

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: ” … and your head. Now you’ll be successful.” So you have to speak to the heart. And kids today, I think we cripple kids by doing far too many things for them, by snowplowing the roads of life for ’em, by not letting them face the realities of the peer group. We don’t give them the psychological muscles they need, that when they leave our home, they can face the realities.

John: Hm. Hm.

Dr. Leman: We make excuses for kids at every turn. Uh, it’s crazy what we do.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: You wanted to talk about depression. Do you realize how we drug kids today, early and often? It’s crazy. I’m, I’m a guy that, uh, I don’t like to take any kinda medication. I avoid it as best I can.

Jim: But, but we need to recognize in some children, there are issues going on. I wanna make sure we’re fair in-

Dr. Leman: Right.

Jim: … that regard.

Dr. Leman: Oh, right. No, here’s the question. Are they depressing or are they depressed? In other words, what I’m saying is there are kids who will work you.

Jim: That’s true.

Dr. Leman: They’ll play you like a violin. And my sweet mother, you’ve-

John: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: … you’ve heard how important she was in my … She was a registered nurse.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: And I had aversion for school.

John: Oh, no. (laughs)

Dr. Leman: And, uh, I found ways of … I would just give the expression like I didn’t feel good at breakfast and a nur- “W- What’s wrong, honey? Anything wrong?” “Uh, no, no, Mom. I just got- ”

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: ” … a little pain.”

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: And she, she’d always ask me, “Is it high or low,” in my stomach? To this day I don’t know why she asked me that question. And sometimes I’d say, “High.” Some days, I’d say, “Low,” just to change it up. And so, “Well, honey, may- uh, are you not feeling well?” “Well, no, I really feel that well, Ma.” “Well, maybe you oughta stay home from school today.” “Now, yeah, Ma. Now you’re talking.”

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: “I gotta stay home from school today.”

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: As soon as she went out the door, ’cause I had a working mom, she was the director of a convalescent home for children, I went fishing.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: I took my fishing pole and I was gone, across the street and down to the creek. But I’m just telling you, kids are capable of working their parents.

John: That kinda shows the flip side of that, which is kids, uh, uh, there are kids who act out, and sometimes it’s not the parents’ fault.

Dr. Leman: Right.

John: So give, uh, speak to that parent who has thrown their hands up, saying, “Wait a minute.”

Dr. Leman: Okay, you can read-

John: “It’s not all on me.”

Dr. Leman: You got a kid who has some real physiological, biological built in problems, you can read every Kevin Leman book you can find, okay? And you can employ all those principles. And I’m here to tell you, and I’m the author of those 61 books, you’ll find some success. And the best thing I’ll tell people is this, “Don’t let the diagnosis, whatever it is, be the excuse for antisocial behavior, for disrespect, for lie telling, anything.”

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: “So with that in mind, you come around to kids and you try to give that son or daughter the best training that’s available today.” We have great training. Name a malady, there’s people out there. There’s support groups, there’s professionals who work with people to bring them along. Because the fear is, of a parent is, “How is this kid gonna make it on their own.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: And then you’ve got parents who are talking about putting their kids in group homes. I mean, uh, if you want a list of maladies, just go to a Merck manual and have at it. They’re all there. You can read about ’em. But I’m just saying, as a parent your heart goes out to this kid. You wanna help this kid become everything that kid can be.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: And do you do it by making excuses for them or do you do it by holding them accountable?

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: And so it’s … Like I say, I said yesterday that, writing this book was a challenge. I think it’s the toughest book I ever took on because it’s hard to get your arms around everything, because it’s … has so much to do with the words you choose to use with your kids. And parent, you need to understand this. Kids do not gravitate to people where they feel uncomfortable.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: And I would ask you how comfortable is your home? Is it that safety net? Is it that safe harbor for your kid?

Jim: Hey, Kevin, sometimes, though, you’re y- I’m hearing you say, “It needs to be comfortable, it needs to be a place of encouragement.” And other times I’m hearing you say, “Your kid shouldn’t be comfortable.” So balance those out for me.

Dr. Leman: It’s the balance beam. It’s the vitamin E, eh, encouragement. Okay? Thank you, Saint Paul. And then it’s vitamin N, which is no-

Jim: Right.

Dr. Leman: … that we have limits and responsibilities. And that is what I call the balance beam of life.

Jim: And it’s not a, a specific dot on a continuum, this is just the art of parenting.

Dr. Leman: It is.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: There is an art form to it. You know, uh, kids hate questions. If you want your kid to talk to you, you have to-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: … change the way you talk to a kid. Say to your kid, “Honey, could I ask your opinion about something?” Your kid’ll talk your ear off. These kids are not gonna engage if they don’t feel comfortable with you.

Jim: So true. Uh, Kevin, y- You mentioned seven realities kids need to face. Let’s hit those just quickly. We’ll tap into a couple. But you’ve already touched on them. Uh, the first is bad things happen even to good people. Um-

Dr. Leman: They do. And, uh, it’s unfortunate that, uh, your kid comes home and tells you about these kids who were cheating in class, and they all got good grades, and he got a C plus. And now you got a discussion on your hands about honesty, the right thing to do, “How do you handle that situation? Do you wanna- ”

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: ” … be the narc in fifth grade? Uh, what’s the consequences for that one?”

Jim: Meaning to tattle tale.

Dr. Leman: The tattle tale.

Jim: Right.

Dr. Leman: Yeah. I mean, there’s all kinds of opportunities for us to be teachers. And what I’m telling parents across the world, “There’ll never be a better teacher- ”

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: ” … than you.”

Jim: That’s it.

Dr. Leman: “And they’re watching you.”

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: “And they watch how you talk to other people. And they watch how you talk to each other. And they certainly know how you talk to them.”

Jim: And it might be good, we’ll post that with your permission. I mean, I’ll just read ’em quickly. Uh, the bad things happen even to good people. Life isn’t always fair. Don’t encourage a victim mentality. Third, uh, you have to live with the hand you’re dealt with. These are good life lessons, uh, to make your-

Dr. Leman: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … children resilient. Four, you aren’t the only person on the planet. (laughs) There’s a good one. Five, facing hardships together is better than trying to go solo. Uh, two are stronger than one. And, uh, six, B doesn’t happen before A. You touched on that one. Seven, your attitude does make all the difference in whether you win or lose in life. Uh, let’s touch on that one, then we’ll move on.

Dr. Leman: Hm.

Jim: Yeah, what are you driving at, there, about attitude, win or lose? Y- You kinda hit in that with the cheating aspect. But are you really saying, “It’s okay to lose?”

Dr. Leman: Yes. The Christian home ought to be a place where kids learn to fail.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: Can you name a better place for a kid to learn to fail than in the Christian home?

Jim: Why is it sometimes the least likely place that kids can fail?

Dr. Leman: Because we’re too role oriented. We know exactly what the kids ought to be like. We force-

Jim: Before they know it.

Dr. Leman: We project our unfulfilled dreams and wishes on our children, particularly our firstborn child. They’re the lab rat of the family.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: But let me just contrast for you the enabler parent. Now, listen to this. Here’s a small list. Overprotects the child, speaks for the child, reacts to emotional outburst, tries to fix things, makes excuses for the child behavior, does what the child should do, uh, for themselves. Well, there’s the enabler. Now, the flip side, the helpful is authentic, honest about the truth, listens and doesn’t judge, is compassionate, affirming, supportive, responds rather than reacts. There’s a huge one.

John: Hm.

Jim: Give that for illustration purposes, ’cause some parents may not even know which category they fall into.

Dr. Leman: Well, the responder, (laughs) uh, the respond-react thing is just powerful. A kid says, he announces … Kids announce things. 15-year-old says, “I’m going to a rock concert in Denver.” You know?

Jim: “And you can’t stop me.”

Dr. Leman: Yeah.

Jim: (laughs)

Audience: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: And, and you live in Colorado Springs. And you’re thinking about driving up I-25 and that traffic with another 16 year old kid. Your visceral comment is what? “Hey, we’re not sending you to some rock concert, and listen you some, uh, wackos up there in Denver, and we’re, uh, using our hard-earned money.” Yeah, uh, you know, you say it, one form or another. But you’re given ’em a vig- vi- vitamin N. You’re giving them a no.

Jim: It seems reasonable to me. (laughs)

John: Yeah. What’s the problem?

Dr. Leman: Well-

Jim: Yep. Where am I going wrong?

Dr. Leman: Hey, uh, heads are shaking across Canada and the US as you just said those words.

John: Yeah. (laughs)

Dr. Leman: “Hey, that Daly guy. Hey, Leman, listen to Daly. He’s got the right attitude.”

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: Well, let me just give you a little flip on that.

Jim: Okay.

Dr. Leman: “Wow. Uh, you wanna drive all the way to Denver and spend how much money? Wow, that group must be really important to you. Hey, um, can you download some of their music? I’d love to hear it.” Now, am I telling you to let the 16-year-old kid go on I-25 for 62 miles to hear this? No, that’s not what I’m telling you. I’m saying, “Hear your kid out. Listen to him. You need to have relationships with your kids. And just shutting kids down, ‘Hey, I’m the boss.’” And this goes back to the difference between being an authoritarian and being an authority. And here’s the kicker. Okay? Is God, the one we praise and worship daily, is God an authoritarian? There’s our model for parenthood. Does he grab Jim Daly by the scruff of the neck, and rub his little nose in it, and remind him of the sins in his life?

Jim: No.

Dr. Leman: Or-

Jim: He’s the authority.

Dr. Leman: He’s the supreme authority. His Scripture says, “Every knee shall bow.” But most parents, Christian parents, they love rules. I mean, they’re, they’re the Pharisees of the modern day. And I’m just saying, “There’s this wonderful balance beam. And if you underscore the fact that your child is not the center of the universe, okay, if he is, how does he ever have a faith in Jesus Christ- ”

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: ” … if he sees himself there?”

Jim: I agree. But let me play that out for you a little bit further, ’cause I want the parents to, to have the tools and be equipped to m- manage this. So let’s take your rock-

Dr. Leman: Play it out.

Jim: Let’s play the rock concert thing a little further.

Dr. Leman: Yeah.

Jim: So you listen to it, and you’re going … Internally, in your mind, you’re going, “This is horrific.”

Dr. Leman: (laughs)

Jim: (laughs) “Why? This is not good.”  And your kid is … You’re asking questions, “Now, why would you like this kinda music? Tell me again why this is important to you.” You’re getting to the point where the, uh, the teenager still wants to go.

Dr. Leman: Okay.

Jim: So what-

Dr. Leman: But I’m not asking him a question.

Jim: Y- Okay.

Dr. Leman: I’m gonna take him back to opinion. “Honey, I want your opinion on something.”

Jim: Okay.

Dr. Leman: “Just g- give me some insight into why that band is so attractive.”

Jim: And you say, “Oh, I like the beat. I really don’t listen to the words. I just like the rhythm. And my friends and I have listened to it for a long time. So we’re really planning to go. I hope that’s okay, Dad.”

Dr. Leman: Yeah. And, you know, that was true of me in a song that was released way back in 1963-

Jim: Careful. (laughs)

Dr. Leman: … called Oh What a Night. And I-

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: And I never listened to the words.

Jim: (laughs) Right.

Dr. Leman: I did as-

Jim: I’m just saying-

Dr. Leman: … an adult. It was about-

Jim: … you said the ex-

Dr. Leman: It was about a night-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: … that a young man had with a prostitute.

Jim: Right.

Dr. Leman: And had great mu- It was a great beat. We danced to it as kids.

Jim: Right outta Proverbs, I guess.

Dr. Leman: (laughs) Yeah. Right outta-

Jim: You know-

Dr. Leman: … Proverbs, right.

Jim: … the point is i- if they continue to want to do that, and you … What do you do as the parent?

Dr. Leman: “Honey.”

Jim: That’s the question.

Dr. Leman: “But thi- this is the … what you have to understand. As a parent, and surely you’ll understand, we do have authority. And we have authority over you. And you’re not always gonna like decisions that we make. But I’ll tell you what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna talk to your mom about it. She ought to be in this conversation. I’d like to play that for her. Could I get back to you tomorrow? And I’ll give you a definitive answer. Come tomorrow. Honey, we’ve thought about it. We talked about it. And you’re not gonna like the answer, but the answer is no.” Now, you know what? There’s some kids who are relieved-

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: … that you just said no. And that’s what you have to understand as a parent. Because in the peer group, that kid can go back and say, “My mom won’t let me go. My dad won’t let me go.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Leman: Don’t be afraid to be the fall guy. Give your child an excuse.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Leman: But you are the captain or co-captain of the ship, and you’re gonna have to make tough calls.

John: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: And the really great calls you make for your kids aren’t easy ones, they’re tough ones.

Jim: Right. And it’s okay to do that.

Dr. Leman: It’s okay.

Jim: Just do it respectfully.

Dr. Leman: It’s called discipline.

Jim: Right.

Dr. Leman: But you hear ’em out. Tremendous difference.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: “Tell me more about it.”

John: Hm.

Dr. Leman: You’re a married man. Have you ever said stupid things to Jean?

Jim: Uh, never once.

John: (laughs)

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: Never once.

John: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: You sinner.

Jim: Uh, wait a second. I have-

Audience: (laughs)

Jim: … to pray.

John: I haven’t in the-

Jim: Lord, forgive me.

John: … last few hours. (laughs)

Dr. Leman: But you know what? I always tell women, “When your husband says something really stupid, uh, d- don’t … You know, he’s a man. Don’t- ”

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: ” … jump all over him.”

John: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: Just say, ‘Wow. Wow.’ Look at him.”

Jim: But there’s a reason grace is from God.

Dr. Leman: Yeah.

Jim: And, uh-

Dr. Leman: Yeah.

Jim: That’s for sure. Uh, listen, Kevin-

Dr. Leman: Fascinating.

Jim: I do want to-

John: (laughs)

Jim: With all the, the things you’re doing in education, with your charter schools-

Dr. Leman: Yeah.

Jim: Y- y- And here in Colorado Springs, we’ve had a number of teen suicides, et cetera. And it seems to be a pandemic, uh, when it comes to the loneliness, all the themes that we talked about the last two days. Speak to that issue and how we, as parents, need to dial in with our kids’ hearts.

Dr. Leman: Just for fun, let me ask you both a question. What do you think my answer will be? This is sorta fun-

Audience: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: … flipping the table.

Audience: (laughs)

Jim: Uh-oh.

Dr. Leman: What do you think my answer will be for the reason for so many suicides? Uh, why? What do you suppose Kevin Leman’s gonna tell you? I’m gonna give you one word, so that’ll be a clue.

Jim: It’s … Well, okay. One word. John, you go first.

John: Uh, l- I’ll-

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: A guess.

John: … guess broadly and say family.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: Okay.

Jim: I’d say, um, maybe boundary.

Dr. Leman: Okay. The, the word I’m thinking of, and you’re not far off at all, is authority.

Jim: Right.

Dr. Leman: I think authority anchors the home. Not authoritarianism, not, “You’re gonna do what I tell you to do as long as you live under this roof.”

Jim: But knowing there are truths.

Dr. Leman: And not permissiveness. Because permissiveness plants the seed of rebellion in a kid’s life. Authoritarianism does the same thing. And again, I take you back to this. Here’s a statement. Put this out. There’s only one way to rear a kid. Do you know how many people you’ve had in the Focus on the Family studios talk about parenthood over the years?

Jim: Quite a few.

Dr. Leman: Quite a few. And here’s a guy, comes along and says, “There’s only one way to rear a kid.” And I’ll defend that. Because the only way to rear a kid is by being an authority over your children and understanding what true authority is. It’s not running over your kids. It’s listening to your kids. And listening to four or five different kids, or three different kids who are different personalities, and showing respect to them. But being the final, you are the final one. You are the one that God is gonna hold-

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: … accountable for the decisions you make as a parent. And you are the best teacher to your child. So I think if we could get to a point where we understand that kids are important, what they think is important. We need to be better listeners. We need to be compassionate, and all those wonderful habits of the heart need to be expressed to children. But there still has to be that final authority.

Jim: And I, I appreciate the directness. I think that’s true. And you can, you know, take a look at your own parenting style and understand where that falls short. Um, and in fact, we have a parenting assessment that might be (laughs) helpful to you. You can come online and take that.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And it’ll show you where you’re doing some things right, and where you may need a little more help. So I’d encourage you to do that. It’s free. Kevin, you do mention eight ways to help your child. You touched again on a couple of those. I, I love your lists. Um, you know, I, I just think they’re helpful. They’re grabbers. But you say, “Don’t panic respond, uh, don’t react. Listen, listen, listen, and listen more. Don’t judge.” Uh, that’s probably the most difficult. You’ve touched on that. Ah, provide comfort, uh, for your child. I think that’s the psychological blanket, as you describe it. What you say matters, think before you say anything. That can be so tough. Did you ever have a argument with your children? Come on.

Dr. Leman: Oh, yeah. That … couple of ’em. I’ve got one daughter who, uh, uh, I still ask myself at night, “Are you sure she grew up in your home?”

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: Um, she has an interesting way of looking at some things in life, and very different from what Sande, Mrs. Uppington, and I see life. And yet, she’s young. So I think she’ll figure it out before long. And you know-

Jim: And it’s kinda-

Dr. Leman: … what?

Jim: … an idea of what your mom and dad felt with you, after, (laughs) you know-

Dr. Leman: Oh, yeah.

Jim: … where you were at?

Dr. Leman: Oh, gosh, yes. But you know, when the ACLU card came to the home-

Audience: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: … with her name on it, I, I did have a problem with that.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: I have to tell you that. I’m politically not quite there. And, uh, I would admit something to you on Focus on the Family. Since it was addressed to our home, I took some liberties and I made two pieces out of it.

John: (laughs)

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: But, um, you know, I’m just telling you, you have to love your kids-

Jim: Right.

Dr. Leman: … as they are. And, uh, they all come in different sizes, different packages, and that love, that, that graceful love, permeates an awful lotta things.

Jim: Well, and let me ask you in this regard, ’cause you’re s- Again, these are your eight ways to help your child. W- Hopefully we can post that list, but d- staying calm, communicate that you’re gonna get through this together and in one piece. Uh, I guess the art of parenting that you’ve been describing, in my mind, is occasionally, you’re gonna blow it as a parent, probably. There may be some really good parents that rarely blow it. But-

Dr. Leman: Oh. Oh.

Jim: … the reality is-

Dr. Leman: We all blow it-

Jim: … you are gonna-

Dr. Leman: … daily, I think.

Jim: Yeah, you’re gonna have an outburst, maybe, you’re gonna lose control. You’re gonna do the things that are different from what you’re … You’re gonna panic. You’re gonna react and not respond well. So y- y- speak to the parent that is aiming to do well. Y- Are you hoping for 80-20? What’s that formula look like?

Dr. Leman: Well, uh, l- let me use this. When you understand how crummy and imperfect you are as a parent, as a person, then and only then can you do what God would have you do on this Earth. I think that covers about everything.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Leman: Saint Paul called himself wretched, Jim.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Leman: If he’s wretched, would you tell me what John Fuller is?

Jim: (laughs)

Audience: (laughs)

Jim: John is terrific.

John: Not publicly, please.

Dr. Leman: (laughs)

Audience: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: Do you see what I’m saying?

John: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: And when we realize that we’ve … all fall short.

John: Yeah.

Dr. Leman: So you’re the first to say, “Hey, honey. You know, I was thinking about what I said to you. I said it in anger yesterday. I, I need to ask for your forgiveness.” You will never look bigger in your kids’ eyes when you say, “Honey, would you forgive me? I was,” what? “I was wrong.” And that’s what opens the door of communication. So that empathy, getting behind your kids’ eyes is how I like to say it.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Well, we have hit it. I mean, we’ve talked about so much today, Kevin, and it’s been terrific. We’ve, uh, talked about depression, and the difficulties that kids face today, and then what parents can do to strengthen them, but not to, uh, hurt them by overprotecting them. And that’s come through loud and clear. This has been so good. There’s so much more in your book that we’re not able to cover in the two programs. When Your Kid is Hurting. And I think, uh, you’ve done, again, an excellent job. This is book number 61?

Dr. Leman: Yeah.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Leman: Wah- One quick thing, perfectionism is slow suicide.

Jim: Right.

Dr. Leman: For those of you who struggle with micromanaging-

John: Hm.

Dr. Leman: … your kids, and wow, th- That’s the way to, uh, plant the seeds of depression in your kid’s life. I’m so glad you, you mentioned that again, ’cause it sparked that thought. The imperfect Jim Daly, the imperfect Kevin Leman, the imperfect John Fuller are the ones who can be difference makers in our kids’ lives.

Jim: Well, that’s what you want your children to grow up to be is difference makers for Christ. And-

Dr. Leman: Right.

Jim: That’s why we’re here today. If, uh, this has touched your heart, and you want more, uh, send us a note. We will, uh, get Kevin’s book and get it into your hands. Uh, it would be great if you could provide a, a monthly pledge to Focus on the Family to help us carry out the work, here. If that’s not possible, a one-time gift. Uh in either case, we’ll send you a copy of Kevin’s book as our way of saying thank you. Uh, but Kevin, again, it has been so good to have you with us. Thank you.

Dr. Leman: My pleasure. I always love being here at Focus on the Family.

John: We love having you here. And as Jim said, uh, we’re here to offer parenting advice and encouragement as we share practical Christian principles to help younger generations. And so I hope you’ll make us known to your friends and family members who are perhaps early on in the, uh, parenting process. And then, if you would, please, uh, help us continue to create radio programs like this one, and answer tough parenting questions by phone or through email, and to reach out and offer caring Christian counseling services. All of this is made possible when you donate to Focus on the Family. So please, contribute generously today and know that you’re helping families around the world. Uh, donate and connect with us when you call 800-232-6459, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And when you’re there, be sure to take a few minutes and, uh, fill out that Seven Traits of Effective Parenting assessment as well. On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once more help you thrive in Christ.