John Stonestreet: The authority that God has instituted in our context is the citizen. You know, we traded in, if you remember that line from the movie, The Patriot, “the king 1,000 miles away for 1,000 kings one mile away.” And there’s an enormous amount of authority how to think about our lives together given to everyday citizens, and that is enabled simply by voting. And Paul says also, “If you can do some good, you should do it. And if you don’t do that good, it’s sin.”
John Fuller: Well, that’s John Stonestreet. He’s one of our guests today sharing about the importance of voting. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller and John Stonestreet and Tim Goeglein will encourage us as believers to perform our civic duty and participate and devote our values in this really critically important election.
Jim Daly: Well, John, you wanna light a keg of dynamite, this is the way to do it.
John F.: (laughs)
Jim: Talk about politics and, uh … But at the same time, we live in a republic. We vote. It’s part of our citizen right.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And I would say our citizen duty, and we’re gonna discuss that today. There’s something like 25 million Christians who do not vote. Some of them think it’s kind of a, you know, a, an area that we’ll just leave to others ’cause it’s sully.
John F.: Mm.
Jim: You know, it’s a little dirty.
John F.: Yeah.
Jim: Politics.
John F.: It’s hard, yeah.
Jim: And so, we step back and say, “You know, we’ll let others handle that.” But I would wanna encourage you as a listener and a viewer, let’s seriously consider where we’re at and what we need to think about, and I’m not talking about party politics. Uh, I’ve said from the beginning, “I wish all, uh, politicians, Democrat and Republicans would recognize the importance that we’re made in God’s image and that we need to protect life.” Because I think it has such downstream impact for people and for the culture, that if we’re more pro-life as a country, many, many things would flow from that.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And so, again, when you hear this, you’re hearing it through the filter, your filter of politics. I’m talking about moral issues, Biblical standing. What does God want us to do as His believers in this environment, in this particular area, this sphere of influence? What does He want from us?
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And we’ll discuss it today with John and Tim.
John F.: Yeah. And, uh, John Stonestreet is the president of Colson Center. He is author of the book, A Practical Guide to Culture: Helping the Next Generation Navigate Today’s World. And Tim Goeglein is the vice-president of external relations in our Washington, D.C. office for Focus on the Family. He’s the author of a book, American Restoration: How Faith, Family and Personal Sacrifice Can Heal Our Nation. Learn more about our guests and those great books when you stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or when you 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY.
Jim: John and Tim, welcome back to Focus. You’ve both been here before. Of course, Tim, you’re at the office there in Washington, D.C. for Focus on the Family. Great to see you.
Tim Goeglein: Great to be here.
Jim: Yeah, it’s so much fun. And John, of course, you’re in the building here with, uh, Colson Center. We so appreciate you and what you do ministry-wise but also being a tenant-
John S.: Oh, yeah.
Jim: … here at Focus. That’s awesome.
John S.: Very pleased to make the long trip-
Jim: (laughs)
John S.: … down the hall.
John F.: (laughs)
Jim: Uh, it certainly builds in some great, uh, guest content and both of you contribute so handsomely to that. Let’s start with this basic question. And I’m looking forward to the discussion because, uh, you know, a lot of Christians do pull back, and we’ll get into that. But, uh, we know as Americans it’s important to vote. Uh, why is it harder to convince Christians about engaging and the importance of voting maybe than ever before? There’s such division. John, let’s start with you.
John S.: Well, you know, I think there’s a, a little bit of a worldview problem that American Christians often have.
Jim: And what’s that problem?
John S.: Well, it’s just separating the secular from the sacred, separating that, you know, my Christianity has something to do with part of life but maybe not all of life, that it really shapes my personal moral decisions, how I, uh, schedule my Sundays and, you know, maybe a few other volunteer days throughout the week. But it really doesn’t, you know, go beyond personal morality. But that’s, that’s a different message than the historic understanding of Christianity, certainly than what the Bible talks about, that God’s the creator of everything and Jesus Christ is Lord of Heaven and earth. And, of course, Paul Epistles talk about our civic life. It talks about our family life. It talks about our community life. It talks about our roles as, as parents and, and everything else. So there’s not a square inch, as my favorite theologian used to say, Abraham Kuyper and Chuck Colson repeating him, uh, o- over which Christ isn’t Lord, and, and that does count politics. So I, I think we have to think holistically about our faith.
Jim: Yeah.
John S.: I think that’s one aspect of it.
Jim: No, that’s good. That’s a good framework. Tim, you’re in this. You’ve been working in politics for the last 40 years. In that regard, you did inform me about how the staff of both Democrat and Republican legislators tend to talk together. Describe that environment that we’re never gonna see on cable news, that you do pick up the phone and call people that have a different persuasion and i- you know, you exchange ideas.
Tim: Well, let me just say to that point, in my nearly 40 years, uh, here in Washington, I am unaware, Jim, and John, and John-
Jim: (laughs)
Tim: … uh, as many, uh, Bible studies, uh, a- as ever that are taking place in the US Senate, uh, in the House, uh, and in many of the cabinet agencies of the federal government. So I think that, uh, the relationships between Democrats and Republicans where it’s popular to say that it’s always acidic, and we’re always at each other’s throats, you know, is, is very often overstated. But I, I do have to say this. I do have to say to your central point, the polarization is a hyperpolarization. And I think that it’s driven by a number of factors. But when Christians … and I think it’s very easy for everyone to be discouraged and despairing, you know, in an environment like this … When Christians, uh, simply throw up our hands and say, “I’ve had it. You know, uh, I’m not going to be involved,” we’re actually going against the grain of what we are taught in scripture. And I think, uh, you know, it’s very important to say in this critically important election year that that’s a bad decision and it’s very deep water.
Jim: And I think, you know, one of the things, the stories that perhaps that was not written about most recent elections is the way the Christian voting block … It’s not uniform. I mean, there’s liberal Christian viewpoints and conservative Christian viewpoints, and I recognize that. So we’re speaking on behalf of, eh, this, you know, singularity of voting. Uh, but, but the Christian vote tends to be more conservative, and I wanna get into that a little bit with respect to kinda the chiding that occurs by the media. I mean, I’ve had many background conversations. Tim, John, I’m sure you have. New York Times will call and do background, saying, “You know, how can conservatives support this candidate because morally they don’t hit the notes that typically the Christian community would wanna see?” And I, I thought that was one of the great misses. I think the Christian community finally realized, okay, we’re not voting in a pasture. Um, speak to that, the nature of that in regards to … I don’t know if that’s a maturing (laughs) of that voter block or a dampening down of those things.
John F.: Mm.
Jim: Because the culture to your point earlier is becoming so polarized that it, it … the vicious attacks that occur on both sides and the extreme left and the extreme right seem to be getting all of the media attention. So those in, uh, you know, that big middle that want to be diplomatic, wanna talk through what is best for the country come to a rational, reasonable conclusion about policy, we just don’t seem to have a voice there.
John S.: Y- you know, look, I, I think the polarization point explains a lot of this. And, and, and that’s because it’s one thing to live in a culture where we agree on where we’re trying to get to but maybe disagree on how we’re going about it. And that’s kinda been the history, I think, of our nation where we’ve had kind of a common sense of identity and a common sense of values. Uh, that’s less the case than (laughs) it used to be, I guess, is a diplomatic way of saying it. I- We now live in a culture in which we don’t agree where we’re trying to get to, and so the issues-
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John S.: … that we end up voting on, uh, that become political issues are first and foremost moral concerns. Uh, who counts as one of us, as members of the human race? Where do we get our value and dignity as individuals? What is the significance of marriage and family? How do we understand the family and how much should we enable kind of personal freedom at the expense of those that are the weakest or most vulnerable among us, particularly children? I’ve just kinda hit the domestic issues, you know, a- as the grounding of our understanding. But think of the implications there for things like education and, and things like, uh, conscience rights and, and so on. These are really important issues that we are distinguishing between.
Jim: You know, it’s almost like though they shame the Christian conservative community into, uh, not supporting a more liberal perspective, including abortion.
John S.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And some conservative writers have come out, you know, saying, “I would put abortion aside for the sake of the moral character of the candidates.” And I’m thinking to myself, “I would never sacrifice a child for that,” you know, virtue. What is virtue? Uh, because a candidate represents themselves better than another candidate. I’m gonna look for the candidate that says, “Hey, I want to defend the voiceless. I want to defend-
John F.: Mm.
Jim: … uh, the pre-born.” That’s what I’m gonna look for, and I don’t care if that person’s a Democrat or Republican. I remember meeting with Dan Lipinski, a pro-life Democrat. And we had, you know, three or four meetings together, and I really appreciated and reinforced for him that we’re in your corner. He’s no longer in the Congress because he was primaried out by Planned Parenthood, frankly. They spent $4 million in the, in the primary to remove him and put a more pro-abortion Democrat in that place. But, man, God bless that man for the convictions that he had. That’s where I feel like where I’m at. You know, I, I am never gonna give up a child’s life for the sake of a candidate who’s kinda gentle and treats people with tolerance. I mean, that’s not the scale for me. I want somebody who will fight for that pre-born child and that mom.
John S.: Well, I think that’s where a Christian worldview has to come in. We don’t think that all issues are morally equal. We think that there are some issues that have greater moral weight than the others, and we think that if you don’t get those issues right, you’re more likely to get the rest of them wrong as well. And I think, um, that, uh, obviously the definition and value and dignity of human life has to be first and foremost.
Jim: Yeah.
John S.: And if we’re really doing a reading of the political moment that we’re in, we’re not in the 90s days of safely going rare anymore.
Jim: Right.
John S.: Uh, you know, uh, that, that … The, the, the parties have shifted dramatically on, you know, how to best protect children through the, the, the institution of the family and what that means, the role of the state in the lives and well-being of children. I mean, listen, we have, we have political things that we are considering right now that will introduce the government in between parents and their children.
John: Mm-hmm.
John S.: That’s a real problem.
Jim: Yeah.
John F.: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And our guests today are John Stonestreet and Tim Goeglein, and they each have written, uh, terrific books. Look for those and other resources as you, uh, put on a worldview and think through your citizenship as a believer at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or give us a call.
Jim: Tim, let me turn your way. You live in your … in Virginia with your wife. Your two sons now are on their way professionally and doing their own thing. (laughs) And, uh, uh, in Virginia, it was quite an insight about parental rights. I mean, that’s when, uh, Governor Youngkin, uh, won the governorship in Virginia. And basically, he ran pretty aggressively on the strife that had occurred at board … school board meetings and some of the gender stuff that was being attempted, and bathroom use, and all those kinds of things that threw both Democrat and Republican parents into a tizzy, and I think rightfully so, uh, to defend children in the school environment. Speak to that idea of parental rights. There are several movements all focused on that to try to alert the culture that, hey, schools do not own our children. Uh, we do as their parents. This is a big issue both for Democrats and Republicans.
Tim: The election in the Commonwealth of Virginia was a culture election. And in fact, I would argue, Jim, that Governor Youngkin, uh, as a candidate was losing before, uh, in a very, uh, (laughs) unpredictable way. A former governor who wanted to come back into office said, “Essentially, parents ought to butt out of, uh, discussions of school curriculum and matters of school.” And it was at that moment that Governor Youngkin, uh, said just the opposite, that parental rights, uh, were central, that schools and the state do not, uh, parent our children but that parents parent our children. And it was that single issue that catalyzed him into the governor’s office, and I think it underscores … and I love the narrative of this program because it underscores the fact that Christ, not politics, is our hope. He’s called us to engage and to discern, and to the best of our abilities uphold good and lesser evil. And it seems to me that the first duty of Christian citizenship is to vote and sometimes to have to apply a very pragmatic sense of it.
You know, the Focus on the Family office here in Washington, D.C., is right across the street from the Supreme Court. And so, I am reminded every single day that, uh, when you go to the polls as a Christian, and it’s a federal presidential election year, you are not just electing a president and a vice-president. You are electing a president, a vice-president, more than 3,000 political appointees who will come with them and their worldview to office. And, uh, the reason I mention the Supreme Court is because you have the constitutional obligation and duty, uh, to nominate and, uh, see confirmed Supreme Court justices and federal justices and judges at every level. Donald Trump, President for four years, more than 200 federal judges and three Supreme Court, uh, nominees in a mere four years. President Biden, four years in office, more than 200, uh, federal judges and one Supreme Court justice. So elections matter and there is a practical application of why Christians should vote.
Jim: And I, I th- Again, I think the, the issue here, if we think about those 25 to as high as 40 million, it’s been reported of Christians who do not vote, what we’re trying to do is convince you to go vote.
John S.: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, that’s part of that responsibility, and we’re not telling you who to vote for. We’re just saying there are things on the line that are critically important. Uh, Tim, let me ask you, uh, with regards to physical safety, I mean, this comes back to the, the schools and what’s happening. We’ve got a good friend, Dr. Mark Yarhouse, I believe is still on the, uh, American Psychological Association panel on gender dysphoria. But you look at that data generally, about 85% of sexually confused pre-teens and teens, gender dysphoric teens and preteens … 85% will self-correct by 19. And this is kind of the moral problem that we face as believers. Who is fighting for those children even though they don’t even know what they’re doing right now?
And I’ve been able to interview three or four, uh, detransitioners, as they’re called, people in their teens or preteens began the hormone treatments or even medical treatment to, uh, change to the other gender. And of course, there’s psychological issues connected to this, and we realize that. But that simple data point that 85% of these young people will self-correct, if you leave them alone. And the way now that the politics are playing into this, that they are mutilating these children into a lifelong battle, uh, it, it’s morally repugnant.
John F.: Mm.
Jim: And that’s, that’s a battle line that’s occurring in these elections as well, those that want to knock down every barrier for a school to help that child into a transition situation, to do double mastectomies, hysterectomies on 13, 14, 15-year-old girls. I mean, it is horrible. And where are the adults saying, “No, it’s not gonna happen under our watch?” I don’t care who you vote for. That simply should not be occurring with those kids.
Tim: I think this goes back to my comment about the power of the unseen bureaucracy. Uh, you know, every day at 9:00 in the morning, geysers of bureaucrats go into their positions, uh, in the federal cabinet agencies. And everyday around 4:00, geysers of bureaucrats come out. Uh, and Congress by and large does not legislate, uh, the kind of policies, Jim, that you are articulating so beautifully. Uh, it is the bureaucrats who take an enormous license and begin to fashion, uh, and create what becomes federal policy in these matters. And so, to John’s wonderful point, who is the cabinet secretary and how does that cabinet secretary get into that position? Uh, it’s through, uh, what we call, uh, politics and policy. And, and it’s why I think it’s important that we raise on a program like this, that we call it politics. But at the end of the day, politics is really a fancy word for a branch of ethics. And, and we pour into part of our politics a worldview.
Uh, our common and great late friend, Chuck Colson, famously said that salvation will never arrive on Air Force One. And so, it’s very important that we Christians always distinguish God and government, but as St. Paul said so beautifully in that incredible letter, uh, to, uh, to the church at Rome … and I’m quoting Paul. He said, “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities for there is no authority … And I wanna repeat this if I may. Paul says, “There is no authority except from God and those that exist have been instituted by God.” And what does he mean there? I- You know, with that statement, Paul defines this very important relationship, it seems to me, between Christians and government.
John S.: I think it’s very important to point out, and Tim has actually written very well about this. The authority that God has instituted in our context is the citizen. You know, we traded in. If you remember that line from the move, The Patriot, “the king 1,000 miles away for 1,000 kings one mile away.” And there’s an enormous amount of authority how to think about our lives together given to everyday citizens and that is enabled simply by voting.
Jim: Yeah.
John S.: And Paul says also, “If you can do some good, you should do it. And if you don’t do that good, it’s sin.”
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
John S.: Now we can talk about the limits of what our vote can actually deliver, but it can deliver some good. And the issue you brought up earlier, I think, is a, uh, important example of this. This is an issue that has swept across the West and has swept across United States. We look around the world and a lot of countries are backpedaling like crazy.
Jim: Yeah, ’cause they’re going by the science.
John S.: They, they, they’re going by the science, and we currently are not. And they are particular bureaucrats, not only on the federal level, but also on the state level, which is why the down ticket, uh, is so important in this particular election, that aren’t just removing all barriers to kids making decisions. They want to enable government officials handholding and walking kids down into this confusion-
Jim: Yeah.
John S.: … while getting parents out of the way.
Jim: Yeah.
John S.: The same thing applies to the abortion issue, that, you know, we’re to just talking about kind of a neutrality. In the State of Colorado, we have an amendment, Amendment 79. If it goes through, what it would do would essentially enshrine abortion without any restrictions in terms of process or term, 3rd term, late-term abortion in the constitution. It would actually increase dramatically taxpayer funding for abortion services on the local level and it removes parental notification all of which lays the groundwork for being able to attack pro-life healthcare professionals including pro-life pregnancy centers.
John F.: Mm.
John S.: Uh, you know, this isn’t a neutral issue. This isn’t just a, you know, how will my abortion affect you sort of neutrality that we hear in the media.
Jim: Yeah.
John S.: And it’s Colorado. It’s, it’s Florida. It’s, it’s Missouri. There’s so many different states that have these sorts of initiatives also on the ballot, and the good we can do is to vote.
Jim: Well, again, this is what makes it so important, that we’re not doing an ASB president for senior class. I mean, this is so much more serious, but it … Unfortunately, our politics kinda trickle down to, eh, who do I like more? And that is not what we b- what we should be looking at. It’s where these policies are headed. What’s the sober adult thinking that goes behind these things? What are the outcomes that we’re going to incur as a culture here in Colorado? I think there’s 10 states-
John S.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … that have abortion on the ballot. Uh, let me swing it a little at the end of the program here about religious liberty, you know, the Constitution. The 1st Amendment promises all Americans the freedom of religion, not the freedom from religion. It’s like they changed that little grammatical thing, and they think somehow it’s illegal to talk about God in the public square. No, no, no. You’re supposed to protect my right to speak in the public square about my faith and man, has the culture turned that on its head as if it’s some kind of illegal expression to talk about God. Uh, speak to that general truth that these rights are derived from God, not government, not by any administration, Republican or Democrat, that God Himself gives us these rights to have conscience, to express ourself, uh, of faith and no faith. We need to recognize that. People of no faith are free to talk about what they want to talk about. But there is no way you have the right to muzzle me in this country. Tim, speak to that issue of religious freedom.
Tim: Well, I think this is one of the greatest ironies of American history, and I’m not overstating it. Because the first amendment was specifically drafted to protect and nourish people of faith. Uh, that, that, that is the whole purpose, uh, of the 1st Amendment and it’s now being weaponized against us. And it seems to me that the biggest issue in this election year that is mostly never discussed is the issue of religious liberty and the rights of conscience. Uh, in fact, I would, uh, put it in another context. I would say that the issue is conscience and its enemies. Uh, and we are now confronting the dogmas of progressive secularism, uh, in this election.
I would say that the biggest issue facing all of America today is not the economy or the border, as major as those are. I think that the major issue in this election year is a spiritual crisis. It is a … It’s a spiritual recession of the first order, and I think that we are going to see this. Who- whoever is elected, we are going to see this play out in the very next term of the Supreme Court because we will know in just a few weeks. When the Court, uh, goes into session we will know whether it will be taking not one, not two, not three, but up to four major religious liberty cases this term. So I think that dealing with the impact of, uh, this impact on our religious liberty, uh, is really in many ways first among equals.
Jim: So, so true, and what a place to land. John, you wanna add to that as we close?
John S.: Well, just every single one of those cases that Tim mentioned started at the bureaucrat state level.
John F.: Mm.
John S.: It started with state officials, a lot of times well-meaning, but themselves misunderstanding the 1st Amendment. And then we, of course, have a cultural narrative which says that freedom of religion is only the right to believe what you want in your own head, in your own home, in your own house of worship. That’s not what the founders intended. The founders intended all of that and also the right to order our public lives around our deeply held beliefs, recognizing that that’s a right that comes first and foremost as the Declaration says from God, not the state.
Jim: Yeah. Well, and this is why we’re doing the program. I think we hopefully have convinced you at least to get up out of your seat, get registered. It takes, like, two minutes. You can do most of that online, I believe, and then vote. Uh, you can do that in early voting. You can do that on the day of the election, November 5th. But I hope those 25 to 35, 40 million people, Christians, that we are convincing you to look at the, look at the issues and study that. Come from a Biblical perspective and then go and vote. That’s what we’re urging you to do. We can’t tell you how to vote. That’s not our place. Uh, but we can say at least as a Christian, think about these things through a Biblical framework. So Tim, John, thank you both for being with me. And, uh, man, this is good. I could just keep talking to you-
John F.: Yeah.
Jim: … all day about these issues. It’s, uh, very stimulating, but it has its limits. And I want people to realize the hope is in Christ, not Air Force One, as you said, Tim. And we’ve gotta maintain that, that perspective o- of our citizenship being of Heaven, not of this earth. And, uh, we’ll be long gone and people will still be biting and chewing and kicking down here. But someday, and this is where Jean and I have landed, someday it says in scripture, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. So we don’t need to worry.
John F.: Well that is such an assurance. And what a program we’ve had today. Now, hopefully you’re motivated to register and vote in this vital election. And to follow up, we’ve got articles for you about how to register and early voting information for your state. All sorts of ways you can pray, invest, engage. And we also have details about the abortion amendments on the ballot in 10 states. All of this at our website, and, uh, Focus on the Family also has a special team of people watching over the cultural landscape and things happening in the public square. You can sign up for an informative, uplifting, free email every day called Daily Citizen. I read it daily, I hope you will as well. And then finally, you’ve heard from John and Tim, they both have excellent books. John Stonestreet wrote A Practical Guide to Culture. Tim Goeglein’s book is called American Restoration. We have those available for you. Everything I’ve mentioned here is at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Or call us if you’d like. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. When you get in touch, donate as generously as you can please, to support the work here at Focus on the Family as we raise up the truth of scripture and encourage you in your walk with Christ. Well thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
